Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 7th Jul 2005 14:41 UTC
Gnome The second point release of the stable 2.10.x branch of GNOME is now officially released. This release has seen continued work to eliminate memory leaks, plain bugs and in general improve and polish the stable series of GNOME. Source: bindings, desktop, platform.
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RE[3]: Gnome bloat and is slow
by Mystilleef on Thu 7th Jul 2005 20:30 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Gnome bloat and is slow"
Mystilleef
Member since:
2005-06-29

I did not really understand your reply. But from what I can decipher, you seem to be errorneously comparing a programming language to an API framework.

C++ is a programming language. GTK+ is a GUI API framework. Glib is an API framework for C that provides useful utility and wrapper functions not available in C, but found in mordern languages. GObject is an object-oriented API framework founded on Glib. GTK+ is the object-oriented GUI API framework founded on both Glib and GObject.

Now, the difference between writing an application in a pure language like C++ as opposed to using an API like Glib/GObject/GTK+, is like the difference between night and day. You are eons more productive using a specialized, robust, well-tested library written by talented and experienced hackers and experts, than rewriting everything from scratch in C++.

Also API programming is totally different from pure C++ programming. For some weird reason, you seem to think GTK+ is programming language, when it is really a GUI framework designed with portability and easy bindings to higher level languages, like Python. These are things C++ majorly suck at, when compared to C.

In addition, C++ can't do anything remarkable that can't be done in any other language, talk less of an API like GObject or GTK+. In fact, C++ does not have a standard GUI library. So it can't do what GTK+ can. Except you are silly enough to rewrite a GUI library from scratch. C++ is also a horrible, complex and distasteful programming language to weild.

I seen more C++ project go sour than I've witnessed for any other language including C. I can count the number of large successful C++ projects on both hands. So much for C++ evolution and maturity that in this day and age we still have to battle memory corruptions, leaks, overflows, underflows, and an assorted array of security vulnerabilities both known and unknown. My friend, both C and C++ suck! However, there are some very well designed and powerful APIs that can bring life back to those languages, and GTK+ is one of them.

Finally, in the free software world, we don't judge the success of a project by how many big proprietary softwares use its product, but rather by how many free software products are designed and authored using the product. With that in mind, the link below points to fabulous applications writing in Python using the GNOME technologies and GTK+.

http://pygtk.org/applications.html

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: Gnome bloat and is slow
by on Thu 7th Jul 2005 20:36 in reply to "RE[3]: Gnome bloat and is slow"
Member since:

> the link below points to fabulous applications writing
> in Python using the GNOME technologies and GTK+.

Yeah, why not writing applications in Basic, Bash or some line interpreted script language or something. Hey, we seek for professional stuff and not a collection of different languages. I and probably most others here don't want to have 100mb of Mono, 50mb of Python, 50mb of Ruby, 50mb of Java installed only to run the one or other application that depends on it. I think the majority of us readers and users of GNOME want to have a consistent Desktop written throughly in one language. The bindings or language stuff can be an addition ontop of it for those who want it. I think exactly this is one of the main concerns in the head of many people. The more they hear people like you talking about Python, Ruby, Mono, Java, <add whatever here> the more you do to get rid of people. Atm as it looks like GNOME is more of a construction lot for experiments than a serious Desktop Environment.

Reply Parent Score: 0

Mystilleef Member since:
2005-06-29

So you'd rather have buggy, security infested, segfaulting C/C++ applications than have an application written by someone who actually had time to do extensive testing, design and prototyping?

Users could care less what programming language is used to write the app. Only geeks and zealots waste their time on such nonesense. If the program rocks, I don't care if I need to install 1GB of libs to use it.

Take a look at games for example, users regularly install gigabytes of games, writing in different languages with different third-party statically linked libraries. Do they care what language the game is written in? Of course not!

What's the point of writing a program in C/C++ that will take years of development time to reach maturity, stability and security and that the developers expend ungodly amount of resources on? If that's your idea of a stable desktop, I don't share your dream.

Just take a look at the release notes for this GNOME release. And see how many memory leaks alone were plugged. That's what you get for using C/C++. Memory leaks, security problems and pain. Like I said, in this day and age, coding desktop apps in C/C++ is reserved for masochists.

If you are a developer looking to write apps for GNOME or just to play, have a look and PyGTK, gnome-python and gnome-python-extras. You'll examples of people writing web browsers in under hundred lines of code. Try that with C/C++.

Reply Parent Score: 1

rhavyn Member since:
2005-07-06

Yeah, why not writing applications in Basic, Bash or some line interpreted script language or something. Hey, we seek for professional stuff and not a collection of different languages. I and probably most others here don't want to have 100mb of Mono, 50mb of Python, 50mb of Ruby, 50mb of Java installed only to run the one or other application that depends on it.

Why not? In Windows most people are running applications written in at least C, C++, VB and Delphi. On OS X people are running applications written in C++, Obj-C, Obj-C++ and Java. And OS X includes Python and Perl out of the box so they're there whether or not you use them.

Of course you're just trolling (as usual) and don't care about what other people are doing.

I think the majority of us readers and users of GNOME want to have a consistent Desktop written throughly in one language.

I think you don't know what you're talking about. That's not something which is realistic to expect on any operating system.

The bindings or language stuff can be an addition ontop of it for those who want it. I think exactly this is one of the main concerns in the head of many people. The more they hear people like you talking about Python, Ruby, Mono, Java, <add whatever here> the more you do to get rid of people. Atm as it looks like GNOME is more of a construction lot for experiments than a serious Desktop Environment.

If only their choices would drive you away so we don't need to listen to your uninformed drivel. Please, go away and stop posting this nonsense.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[4]: Gnome bloat and is slow
by MORB on Fri 8th Jul 2005 09:06 in reply to "RE[3]: Gnome bloat and is slow"
MORB Member since:
2005-07-06

C++ is a programming language. GTK+ is a GUI API framework.
I agree. Since you pointed out that it's comparing aples to oranges, why did you bother to do the comparison anyway ?

C++ can't do anything remarkable that can't be done in any other language
And no programming language can do anything remarkable that can't be done in assembly.

C++ is also a horrible, complex and distasteful programming language to weild.
That's exactly what I thought, as long as I was fighting C++ instead of working with it, all while thinking I knew better than the people who designed the language.

The problem of C++ is that since it contains a large subset of C for interoperability purpose, an awful lot of people just keep programming it like it was C and just cherry pick a few C++ features.
C++ is not C. It's a totally different language, and coding in C++ by doing things the C way is dangerous and is why a lot of C++ code is messy and hard to maintain.
For instance, there is no problem using exceptions - as long as you don't keep writing C, which is mostly incompatible with exceptions.

So much for C++ evolution and maturity that in this day and age we still have to battle memory corruptions, leaks, overflows, underflows, and an assorted array of security vulnerabilities both known and unknown
That's exactly what happens when you insist on your code being some bizarre C/C++ chimera.
Take advantage of the RAII pattern, use STL containers instead of old-style strings and arrays, use smart-pointers, and these problems are no more.

There are also good programming practices, like writing your code in a way that avoid useless clutter and makes the purpose of the code more apparent, that just aren't possible in C.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[5]: Gnome bloat and is slow
by on Fri 8th Jul 2005 10:44 in reply to "RE[4]: Gnome bloat and is slow"
Member since:

C++ can't do anything remarkable that can't be done in any other language

And no programming language can do anything remarkable that can't be done in assembly.

That is just BS. There are lots of programming languages that can perform magic on schedules, budgets, quality, maitainability and a slew of other areas that ASM or even C++ can't dream of.

Reply Parent Score: 0

Mystilleef Member since:
2005-06-29

That's another problem with the C++ community. Everytime you point out how totally wrecked the language is, they tell you you are not doing things the right way.

Use feature X, don't use feature Y. You are coding C not C++. Use this library, don't use that library. All the while, time is passing, resources are been expended and I'm way past my deadline.

This is the language Mr Anonymous thinks will automatically do wonders for GNOME. This is the language to bring stability, security and consistency to GNOME.

There is a reason I called C++ unwieldy, and MORB just proved my point. It's unwieldy because no bloody person ever does things the right way. The amount of gotchas inherent in the language will make stone-cold killer squeal like a lil' bitch.

I know...I know...I'm probably coding C++ the wrong way...

*sighs*

Reply Parent Score: 1