Linked by Eugenia Loli on Thu 10th May 2007 01:53 UTC, submitted by editingwhiz
Red Hat Red Hat announced a new client product, Red Hat Global Desktop, at its annual Red Hat Summit tradeshow in San Diego. This move is designed, in part, to compete with Novell's SUSE Linux Enterprise 10 Desktop, which has achieved success in business desktop markets, and with Ubuntu 7.04, which will soon appear on Dell PCs. Some reporting about this can also be found at the company's magazine. Update: Elsewhere, talking security with Red Hat's Mark Cox.
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RE: ...
by segedunum on Thu 10th May 2007 12:00 UTC in reply to "..."
segedunum
Member since:
2005-07-06

"To us, the traditional desktop metaphor is dead"

wow, some one need to tell to the KDE crew that their work is in vane because Red Hat says so.


This is because they don't have the technology or the infrastructure available to them to build a desktop with the supporting libraries, APIs and henceforth applications of Windows or a desktop like KDE. After using RHEL and its CentOS form, that much has become very clear to me in the past few months.

Like a lot of others, Red Hat is desperately searching around for a new desktop paradigm that would mean they wouldn't have to put in the sheer amount of donkey work required to build a desktop of the size, scale and general quality of Windows or KDE - certainly in their supporting infrastructure. Unfortunately for them, everybody is not moving their applications to the web. People still buy off-the-shelf software they expect to be able to install, they still use rich client software and ISVs have to be able to build that software with the development tools, libraries and APIs required to do that. You can't just assume everyone will use online services, because that is doomed to failure, and it's not something enterprises are going to fully do either.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: ...
by tristan on Thu 10th May 2007 21:04 in reply to "RE: ..."
tristan Member since:
2006-02-01

This is because they don't have the technology or the infrastructure available to them to build a desktop with the supporting libraries, APIs and henceforth applications of Windows or a desktop like KDE. After using RHEL and its CentOS form, that much has become very clear to me in the past few months.

Like a lot of others, Red Hat is desperately searching around for a new desktop paradigm that would mean they wouldn't have to put in the sheer amount of donkey work required to build a desktop of the size, scale and general quality of Windows or KDE - certainly in their supporting infrastructure. Unfortunately for them, everybody is not moving their applications to the web. People still buy off-the-shelf software they expect to be able to install, they still use rich client software and ISVs have to be able to build that software with the development tools, libraries and APIs required to do that. You can't just assume everyone will use online services, because that is doomed to failure, and it's not something enterprises are going to fully do either.


I'm curious. What, specifically, can a developer do using KDE that cannot be done using GTK+/Gnome?

With the likes of Cairo, GStreamer, DBus and Telepathy -- the last two of which are cross-desktop efforts -- it seems to me that the Gnome platform is itself using just as advanced technology as KDE will be with Arthur, Phonon and the rest.

Of course, as everyone knows, programming in pure GTK in C is horrible. But I'm told the C++ API (gtkmm) is very highly regarded, as is GTK# on Mono. And then there's PyGTK, which is falling-off-a-log easy -- even I can use it.

What Gnome hasn't managed to do anywhere near as successfully as KDE is to tie everything together under a single banner. What they need to do is produce a single website -- say, developers.gnome.org -- full of documentation and code examples for all the technology used on the Gnome platform.

They also need a talented artist to sit down and design a really modern GTK theme using all that Cairo drawing can offer. Even Clearlooks looks pretty old-fashioned these days with its inoffensive greys.

But to say the whole of the Gnome platform is antiquated and need massive investment to get it up to the standard of the competition just doesn't ring true to me.

Edited 2007-05-10 21:08

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[3]: ...
by anda_skoa on Thu 10th May 2007 21:39 in reply to "RE[2]: ..."
anda_skoa Member since:
2005-07-07

I'm curious. What, specifically, can a developer do using KDE that cannot be done using GTK+/Gnome?


First, let me say that I agree with you.

Second, I am wondering what this has anything to do with Red Hat at all. Customers can use and do use KDE desktops on Red Hat, CentOS and the like.
I am absolutely sure about this because that is what our company deploys.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[3]: ...
by sbergman27 on Thu 10th May 2007 22:04 in reply to "RE[2]: ..."
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""
They also need a talented artist to sit down and design a really modern GTK theme using all that Cairo drawing can offer. Even Clearlooks looks pretty old-fashioned these days with its inoffensive greys.
"""

While I agree with a lot of your post, I must point out that "usability" does not go in and out of fashion like hem-line lengths or white shoes after labor day.

Clearlooks is a solid, usable theme today, and will be tomorrow. So is Bluecurve for that matter.

I went through my "Keramic is cool looking" phase a few years back, and find the soothing colors of Clearlooks to be quite comfortable and business-like.

Cairo might pave the way for some improvements, as long as the designers remember that it is simply one tool among many and don't get overly wacked-out on the "endless possibilities".

A shot of "boring" is good in a desktop theme after the first day of use.

Edited 2007-05-10 22:09

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[3]: ...
by segedunum on Thu 10th May 2007 22:41 in reply to "RE[2]: ..."
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

I'm curious. What, specifically, can a developer do using KDE that cannot be done using GTK+/Gnome?

Rather than shout tit-for-tat I'd just say look at the applications: Look at K3B, digiKam, Umbrello, IDEs like KDevelop and GUI development with Qt Designer, graphical config tools like YaST, a file manager such as Konqueror and a new file manager called Dolphin developed in a record amount of time really, technology that binds the desktop and applications together such as DCOP (now DBUS) and KParts etc. etc.

Then look at the equivalents, and then ask yourself if any non-open source developer would go for it.

Of course, as everyone knows, programming in pure GTK in C is horrible. But I'm told the C++ API (gtkmm) is very highly regarded, as is GTK# on Mono.

What Gnome needs is not necessarily another all singing and all dancing uber cool language like C# - what's needed is an all-encompassing Gnome programming toolkit that binds the desktop and its applications together. KDE uses C++, which in many incarnations is bloody awful, but use C++ with Qt and it's a whole different experience. Build that and you have the 'wise man built his house upon the rocks' platform to create the great applications and attract users and developers alike. If Red Hat can't do that then they're wasting their time, regardless of any new uber 'we're above Windows' desktop paradigm they've found.

But to say the whole of the Gnome platform is antiquated and need massive investment to get it up to the standard of the competition just doesn't ring true to me.

Don't compare it to KDE but compare it to Windows, which no matter how much anyone pretends, that's what you're up against when it comes down to it.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: ...
by sbergman27 on Thu 10th May 2007 21:52 in reply to "RE: ..."
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""
This is because they don't have the technology or the infrastructure available to them to build a desktop with the supporting libraries, APIs and henceforth applications of Windows or a desktop like KDE.
"""

You're trolling Segedunum.

But I'll answer anyway.

RedHat *could* just use KDE.

But the fact of the matter is that Enterprise Linux distros, who are absolutely free to choose what will work best for them, are uniformly rejecting KDE in favor of Gnome.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it. And that's absolutely *all* I'm going to say on that matter.

If you want a DE war, I'm not participating any further.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[3]: ...
by segedunum on Thu 10th May 2007 22:29 in reply to "RE[2]: ..."
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

But the fact of the matter is that Enterprise Linux distros, who are absolutely free to choose what will work best for them, are uniformly rejecting KDE in favor of Gnome.

Sigh........ No they're not - or at least many of their customers aren't (ask a few SLES customers about 9 and 10 ;-)). It's just that certain Linux vendors are flushing any chance they have of competing for the areas that Windows Server currently dominates in right down the toilet, mostly in the name of politics. I'm not too bothered that they want to do that. It's their funeral in the next few years I'm afraid.

Any Windows sys admin who sees the level of graphical management tools on those so called enterprise Linux distributions compared to what they're used to, and the hence infrastructure it's built on, at the moment is going to laugh them out of town. It's that simple. The fact that some people don't like that is just par for the course.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it. And that's absolutely *all* I'm going to say on that matter.

Well, the so called enterprise Linux distros are putting an explosive substance in their pipes and are smoking it. Ultimately, they have nothing to compete against Windows Server and push back against it.

As I said, when you look at the level of technical infrastructure available, and the development infrastructure with which to build those tools that will really get people currently using Windows Server sitting up and taking notice then based on the evidence of what Novell and Red Hat have produced with their chosen environments - it ain't great competition.

Novell and Red Hat probably feel they can sit in their own niches of taking the low hanging fruit of people moving from older Unix systems. Bad, and probably fatal, mistake.

If you want a DE war, I'm not participating any further.

I'm not advocating a DE war at all. I'm advocating that people actually look at the technology out there every once in a while, look at the pretty good graphical management tools that Xandros are producing (probably the best around), look at the next best thing we've had which is YaST and then look at what Novell is now producing with their much vaunted new technology (i.e. nothing) and the measly showing Red Hat has after over ten years - then ask yourself why. Look at the applications as well.

If people are uncomfortable about that then sorry, but there you are.

Edited 2007-05-10 22:49

Reply Parent Score: 4