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Yeah, Ubuntu doesn't seem to have anything in the middle. 6.10 LTS is frozen and 7.04 is cutting edge. 6.10 is good for servers and office workstations cause you know it's solid. But you can't install newer applications and they are not providing newer applications so I think on servers where you don't have to change a lot.

(Like I use 6.10 for my mail servers cause all I have on them is mail and unless my mail software has a major upgrade I almost never have to make changes to the base OS.)

It would be cool if they could figure out a middle road where they could have a stable almost frozen secure base like 6.10 that could run newer apps like 7.04!

That would be magic! LOL!

6.06 is LTS - 6.10 was a normal release.

I think he even hit on something important that's missing from even cutting edge Ubuntu, which is the ability to update to externally stabilized code bases (like Firefox and OpenOffice.org).

In Ubuntu, the version of Firefox, OO.org, Pidgin, etc. are all tied directly to the release version of those apps, and the release version of Ubuntu. When it comes time to upgrade to Firefox three, it will likely take a whole distro upgrade to get that, instead of just updating the major upstream vetted version of Firefox by itself.

It would be nice to get stable releases from external sources more easily in Ubuntu than having to wait for the next distro upgrade.

I suppose Mozilla could set up an apt-repo for that matter (others too).

One could take a contrary view that rather than employ resources to develop Mepis and Ubuntu separate from the Debian "base", that instead, these same resources be employed to strengthen Debian and abolish the idea of fragmented inheritance.

Consolidate resources (time, devs, money)...
Focus effort (on the base, not the fragments)....
Reduce Market confusion (the # of distros is confusing)...

That Ubuntu is that popular says, to me, Debian is that solid, otherwise, Mepis wouldn't be going full circle. So why stop at the seeming logic of using Debian as the base. Debian could be more than the base.

I'll bet there are some Debian purists out there saying, thanks for your help now go away! But what is the goal? The Desktop or (to borrow a phrase)
"To have a lot of fun?"

Winning the Desktop would be a lot of fun. It won't happen watching major distros jockey for position like this.

That might not happen with Ubuntu but I think some of the other debian based distros should try to do this. Ubuntu is too damn big, its gotten to the point where if you see some kick ass revision of another distro come out you see like 500 different posts of people singing Ubuntu's praises. I'm an Ubuntu user and I'm probably never going to switch barring a deal with MS, but I don't have to shout my buntuphelia from every rooftop. Anyway I though it was obvious that Dapper doesn't get much more than security updates, I think that's been clear since release. Ubuntu isn't Debian, it's goal is to release a new version every six months, dapper was for those who don't need the latest and didn't want to upgrade every six months. I do think that Ubuntu should think about fixing this issue as doing a refresh every six months is getting annoying (not really I find it exciting since they usually add some pretty cool things, and I like to be surprised with the new artwork).

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One could take a contrary view that rather than employ resources to develop Mepis and Ubuntu separate from the Debian "base", that instead, these same resources be employed to strengthen Debian and abolish the idea of fragmented inheritance.

Consolidate resources (time, devs, money)...
"""

I've often thought the same about hemoglobin in red blood cells. Rather than fold into that complex, confusing shape that it does. Why doesn't it just stretch itself lengthwise and form the longest protein that it can? That would be better, wouldn't it?

The goal of the debian to be "the universal operating system". debian is a mouldable "substance" that can transform to anything you want.

Currently, I'm using it as my desktop system. our company uses it as servers and somebody embed it to somewhere while others distros use debian as a base.

If debian changes to desktop oriented, we lose so much things. Also debian serves as a "high profile" distro for old school people (or hardcore or you name it). I for one don't like ubuntu or whatever distro that uses major gui tools for everything because I write my config files, I read man pages and I like to struggle with my PC and the general result is a system which works in the way I like most.

If I need to polish my distro I can do it from top to toe. If I don't, I use icewm or no Xwindow system. If I want something special I can use vanilla kernel with any patchset. You cannot do it in suse for example.

So, debian is a huge underlying platform which makes development of desktop distros possible. why convert it to something lesser than itself?

I bet that MEPIS will be back to Ubuntu next summer, shortly after the next LTS release. Warren doesn't want to maintain his own distribution, he just wants to do his value-add. From this perspective, why stick with Dapper when Etch is significantly newer? Next summer, why stick with Etch when Gutsy+1 is newer?

MEPIS will keep bouncing back and forth between whichever project has the newest long-term repository.

Personally, I think that Warren's arguments are disingenuous. There should be no confusion about package updates in long-term repositories. That's the fundamental trade-off. You either get incremental package updates or long-term support, not both. As the leader of his project, he should educate his users.

By using the EXPERIMENTAL code, each and every time, the Ubuntu code tree is inherently less stable than the Debian code tree, which contains additional levels of testing and vetting and fixing of code.

I guess he conjured this "Debian EXPERIMENTAL" thing from nowhere. I always thought that Unstable was a term that erred on the side of caution, but the use of all caps really drives it home that by using Ubuntu, you are effectively playing with napalm. Debian also uses "EXPERIMENTAL" code each and every time. They just have a much longer development cycle.

So while Etch is looking rather spry right now, it could be two or more years before Lenny is stabilized. Warren's users will no doubt demand newer applications before then, so he will once again come face to face with the new packages vs. long-term stability trade-off. Since he isn't inclined to say no to his users, he will have to find another argument for ditching Debian for Ubuntu.

This was not obvious over a year ago, but it is very obvious now.

Yeah, yeah. Just rephrase that one for the next switch.

This is a wonderful thing from the point of view of improving the Debian EXPERIMENTAL code.

This is Warren's perspective on the merits of Ubuntu's development cycle. Sure, it's great for Debian, but what about my users? Well, as great as he thinks his embellishments might be, there would be no MEPIS without Debian. No, he isn't required to consider Debian's well-being, but he's hurting his users in the long-run. He's the guy sucking on the end of the still while everybody else is feeding it grain and firewood.

It's ironic that, seeking to provide stability with the minimum amount of work, his solution is to drag his users back and forth between mother distributions. Is that stable? Is this the long-term outlook for MEPIS?

Edited 2007-07-30 22:56

Debian Unstable (Sid) and Debian Experimental (Scut) are two completely different branches of the Debian GNULinux distribution.

Very true! It's a shame that many distributions act more like parasites; it appears to be a symbiotic relationship between Debian/Ubuntu and Mepis but if Warren is gaining so much just by switching bases and the world is left wondering "why does Warren switch? Which is best?", it can't be good.

Personally, I'm a bit fed up trying to explain the "differences" between Debian and Ubuntu, and people like Warren aren't making it easy. I mean, picking Etch just because it's fresh now is not a long term solution! I agree with those that have said that Ubuntu will be the base again in a short while when Etch is "old and obsolete",