Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 9th Oct 2007 16:10 UTC, submitted by elsewhere
Novell and Ximian "Novell's long journey from NetWare to Linux is finally complete. On Oct. 8, Novell released Open Enterprise Server 2 to its customers worldwide. Shortly after acquiring SUSE and its enterprise-focused Linux distribution, Novell announced that its follow-on to NetWare 6.5 would ship as a set of network services that could run atop the NetWare and the Linux kernel, OES 1.0. OES, which began shipping in April 2005, was the first major step in Novell moving NetWare's services from its native operating system to Linux. Now, with OES 2.0, the NetWare operating system kernel, NetWare 6.5 SP7, is still there if you run it, but it runs on top of the Xen hypervisor. You can also run the NetWare services, or a para-virtualized instance of NetWare, on top of Xen with the SLES 10 SP 1 kernel. So, if you're wedded to NetWare and its way of doing things, you don't have to wave good-bye to it."
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RE[6]: Goodbye Novell
by segedunum on Wed 10th Oct 2007 21:11 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Goodbye Novell"
segedunum
Member since:
2005-07-06

How many jumped ship because of that and who?

Well, I'm afraid you've been out of the loop. Customers do not want a choice of two kernels - they want to know what Novell is selling. Customers have been jumping ship for quite some time, hence Novell's somewhat dire financial results and a new round of layoffs apparently.

Novell's entire reason for running 2 kernels parallel with similar feature sets was because the customers wanted it.

No, they didn't. Novell went and did that of their own accord, and they thought that's what customers wanted. You have to get the meaning from what customers say, not what they actually. Rather like women! Who in their right mind thinks that customers want to choose a kernel?

You can't rip and replace like that. If you really want to drive customers away, then having OES services sitting on the NetWare kernel only one version and then eliminating that and going with the Linux kernel only on the next version would basically kill your File/Print business.

Novell are doing that fine, I'm afraid. The key here is decisiveness. Novell should have announced that they were moving away from Netware, but should have come up with a clear migration plan and tools and a clear incentive for customers to move to the new Linux offering so that it was as damn near a drop-in replacement as possible - with tons of added goodies to keep them. There's simply no reason for any Netware admin today to move to the Linux version of OES, simply because it's different, there's nothing compelling to move to it for (other than Novell can't keep up with hardware support for Netware, which is not a customer's problem) and it's simply a Linux version of something that does what Netware does, except arguably worse in his eyes with nothing extra. Many organisations are simply moving to Windows servers completely to manage their networks.

That's just the point, they are not one product. OES proprietary services sit on top of SLES...

They are one product, and they should both have the same name. It's an OS. Why is the OES stuff proprietary anyway? I thought Novell was an open source company (which causes yet more confusion for people)?

Otherwise you're basically using the analogy that Exchange 2007 should come with Windows Server 2003...

Errrr, no, because one's a mail server and one's an OS.

Have you used OES2 yet? Have you thoroughly tested it to make that conclusion?

We have one big Netware using client, and they've already been making the shift to Windows servers to replace what Netware is doing. Once Netware support goes completely, apart from when it is being run in a VM, then so will Netware - and they won't be moving to OES Linux. It's just too much hassle, and there is little incentive to do it.

I want to be able to run the OES services on new hardware which is becoming more and more difficult on the NetWare path.

You need an awful lot more incentive than the ability to run Netware services on new hardware if you're going to move to something new. If you're moving to new hardware then you might as well just move to Windows, or Red Hat, and that's the view many companies are taking.

I also can't go in to my server room and rip and replace all my NetWare servers with OES2 Linux boxes.

That's about the size of it. That's exactly what Novell should be helping you to do - as painlessly as possible, with lots of goodies to make the whole process worthwhile.

Why? I'm not saying it's a terrible idea, I'm just curious as to what benefit would it be for them?

That sounds just like Novell themselves. The open source company.........that isn't. Because they need to prolong the life of their OS and their services in another operating system, that operating system is open source, and one of the benefits of Novell using Linux and open source software is shared development and Netware services usage increasing.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: Goodbye Novell
by IanSVT on Thu 11th Oct 2007 02:25 in reply to "RE[6]: Goodbye Novell"
IanSVT Member since:
2005-07-06

Well, I'm afraid you've been out of the loop. Customers do not want a choice of two kernels - they want to know what Novell is selling. Customers have been jumping ship for quite some time, hence Novell's somewhat dire financial results and a new round of layoffs apparently.


I know Windows has been dominating NetWare market share since the late 90s before Linux was a blip on the radar, and it continues to this day. Neither your nor I really know if a dual kernel approach during a phase out of the NetWare kernel has any impact whatsoever on that outside of anecdotal evidence.

No, they didn't. Novell went and did that of their own accord, and they thought that's what customers wanted. You have to get the meaning from what customers say, not what they actually. Rather like women! Who in their right mind thinks that customers want to choose a kernel?


Well, probably the customer with an installed base of NetWare servers, who need(ed) time to plan a proper migration and get their staff properly trained. You can't get all customers on board with a new product 100%. Microsoft can't even do that with moving users off of XP onto Vista. It just isn't realistic. Some customers welcome change, some resist. You can't alienate one group. I know I want the choice to run either in our server room.

Novell are doing that fine, I'm afraid. The key here is decisiveness. Novell should have announced that they were moving away from Netware, but should have come up with a clear migration plan and tools and a clear incentive for customers to move to the new Linux offering so that it was as damn near a drop-in replacement as possible - with tons of added goodies to keep them. There's simply no reason for any Netware admin today to move to the Linux version of OES, simply because it's different, there's nothing compelling to move to it for (other than Novell can't keep up with hardware support for Netware, which is not a customer's problem) and it's simply a Linux version of something that does what Netware does, except arguably worse in his eyes with nothing extra. Many organisations are simply moving to Windows servers completely to manage their networks.


Novell customers have known since OES1 came out that NetWare's development was on the decline. It was not only an obvious scenario, Novell outright said it. You're off base on your comment about hardware support. If you want to continue to run NCP/eDirectory/NSS volumes/iPrint and so on, hardware support it very much is a customer problem in addition to Novell's. Beyond that, if a hardware vendor won't make drivers available for NetWare, what can Novell do? Moreover, third party support for Linux is far and away better than NetWare, especially in the enterprise sector. If those aren't clear reasons for a customer to move, then clearly IT isn't critical to them.

Errrr, no, because one's a mail server and one's an OS.


The mail server is a service, and the other is a series of services. eDirectory is not an OS, it's a service. iPrint is not an OS, it's a service. iFolder is not an OS, it's a service. SLES is the OS, NetWare is the OS, OES is the services coupled with the OS.


We have one big Netware using client, and they've already...


What do they use NetWare for then?


You need an awful lot more incentive than the ability to run Netware services on new hardware if you're going to move to something new. If you're moving to new hardware then you might as well just move to Windows, or Red Hat, and that's the view many companies are taking.


I don't need any more incentive than that. If you're using those services I mentioned above, then you want to have and OS that will run those services and be supported on current hardware. You can't tell me that moving to OES Linux is harder or more of a hassle than ripping up your directory services and replacing it with Active Directory, replacing your entire mail system with Exchange, moving all of your printers to a wholly different management suite. RedHat doesn't even have proper equivalents in many of these service areas. You're incorrectly trivializing the costs of these processes. Migrations from NetWare(or from any other server OS including Windows) is not driven by a "hassle" factor. It's driven by service needs. People move to Windows to run Exchange, NOT because Linux is too hard. If that's all it takes to move from NetWare, I can't honestly tell you why you(as in a customer) were even using NetWare in the first place because it couldn't have been for much.


That sounds just like Novell themselves. The open source company.........that isn't. Because they need to prolong the life of their OS and their services in another operating system, that operating system is open source, and one of the benefits of Novell using Linux and open source software is shared development and Netware services usage increasing.


I can't disagree with that. But you didn't answer the question. Where is the benefit? Are you assuming that the open sourcing of eDirectory would automatically drive development for it? If Hula was any indication, just because you open source something, doesn't mean there is any interest in it out there in the community.

To sum up, you don't seem to put much value in the services that run on OES NetWare or OES Linux and in turn seem to extrapolate that general feeling onto customers as a whole. You also discount 3rd party support and hardware support. You discount the time it takes to plan a migration, secure the funds, secure the hardware, and train your staff. You also say that Novell should rip and replace NetWare and that there is no incentive to move. Well, if you want to continue to run Novell's services, clearly OES Linux is your best choice since NetWare is going to be EOL'ed.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[8]: Goodbye Novell
by segedunum on Thu 11th Oct 2007 20:19 in reply to "RE[7]: Goodbye Novell"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Neither your nor I really know if a dual kernel approach during a phase out of the NetWare kernel has any impact whatsoever on that outside of anecdotal evidence.

It's the easiest thing in the world to say 'no evidence', but confusing customers over something that is pointless doesn't exactly help - let's put it that way.

Well, probably the customer with an installed base of NetWare servers, who need(ed) time to plan a proper migration and get their staff properly trained.

There is no way you need a choice of two kernels to do that. This is what people, and certainly Novell, don't understand. This is a Novell problem, not a customer's.

Some customers welcome change, some resist. You can't alienate one group.

Novell listened too much to the people who were vocal about change. If they'd made sure that OES Linux was a much a drop-in replacement for Netware as possible, and then put the legwork into making it a serious proposition against Windows 2003, any resistance would have melted away.

I know I want the choice to run either in our server room.

Why? It gives you no benefit whatsoever, and just proliferates the numbers of systems you have and things to go wrong.

I don't need any more incentive than that. If you're using those services I mentioned above, then you want to have and OS that will run those services and be supported on current hardware.

So you're going to go through the upheaval of moving to something new, that doesn't do very much more than what you were using previously, just to run it on new hardware? I'm afraid you're in a minority.

You can't tell me that moving to OES Linux is harder or more of a hassle than ripping up your directory services and replacing it with Active Directory...

That transition has been happening for years, since AD is largely a pre-requisite for Windows desktops. Novell just didn't take heed.

Migrations from NetWare(or from any other server OS including Windows) is not driven by a "hassle" factor.

Listen. Migrations from Netware have been happening for years. What Novell have done is simply speeded that process up by creating hassle that customers see as unnecessary.

It's driven by service needs. People move to Windows to run Exchange, NOT because Linux is too hard.

Novell have made Netware too hard, that's what it boils down to. However, the above is also true, and Novell just haven't come up with the applications, management tools features and services to make moving from Netware to OES Linux worthwhile.

I can't disagree with that. But you didn't answer the question. Where is the benefit? Are you assuming that the open sourcing of eDirectory would automatically drive development for it?

The question has been answered umpteen times over. Novell moved to using Linux and open source software because they simply couldn't afford to maintain and push forwards Netware any more, and it follows that they needed to follow through with that with the rest of their software. Successfully integrated with open source projects in the Linux and open source world would get people using Netware again - at least in part.

If Hula was any indication, just because you open source something, doesn't mean there is any interest in it out there in the community.

Hula was a disaster because it was simply Netmail re-branded and code dumped because they had no further use for it. There was also little interest when compared with the hype because there are an awful lot of groupware solutions in the open source world such as Zimbra, eGroupware, Open Groupware and Kolab. Quite why Novell are flogging the dead horse called Groupwise one can only guess.

If they'd come up with something a bit different that others could have got interested in, that might have made things different. As it is, Hula was essentially useless to people.

To sum up, you don't seem to put much value in the services that run on OES NetWare or OES Linux and in turn seem to extrapolate that general feeling onto customers as a whole.

Nope. I put quite a lot of value in those services, but obviously Novell doesn't and many of their customers who are jumping ship feel the same way. Novell have made a half-baked and botched half-move from one platform to another.

You also discount 3rd party support and hardware support. You discount the time it takes to plan a migration, secure the funds, secure the hardware, and train your staff.

Unless what you're moving to has some tangible benefit, doing any of that stuff is pointless. If I were a Netware customer I would just run Netware as-is until the hardware had fallen over, and then I'd replace it with something else. OES isn't particularly compelling because it doesn't fix some of the shortcomings of Netware, and that's the way many customers are looking at it.

You forget that Netware usage has been declining for some time and people have been migrating away. There are specific reasons for that. Novell's bottom line is evidence of that.

Well, if you want to continue to run Novell's services, clearly OES Linux is your best choice since NetWare is going to be EOL'ed.

I think that final sentence adequately sums up what I've been saying. People are being herded into moving to OES Linux because Netware is heading towards the end of its life. There's no compelling benefit to anyone in that, other than the ability to continue to run Netware services and Novell software. That isn't much of an incentive.

Reply Parent Score: 2