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Just because some hiring company/current employer thinks certifications aren't useless doesn't mean much in practice: you can get all sorts of people that manage to remember just enough for the testing, and can't actually apply it in real-world conditions when pressed, because they study for the test, and that's the extent of that: they're merely highly-evolved parrots with a piece of paper. This also goes, too, for a lot of computer science/IT type degree earners: that means they've put in enough time and effort to earn the piece of paper, but it doesn't mean the paper has any real-world value once they're having to produce things in real life. Many of those with a degree (and not just in computer science) see it as a means to an end, and think as soon as they've got that, they're golden, and many think they're the cat's pajamas, too, and lord it over self-taught people or those that didn't attend as almighty an institution as they did. Really, the most useful thing to get out of a college education is to learn the art of learning, because all college and a degree are truly good for are getting your feet wet, and giving you a clue about how and what to look for in a given field, and some of the basics: it isn't a long-term solution that never needs updating, if you're serious about your pursuits.

So, a combination of real-world experience, combined with some sample of what they've done (via references, actual code example or products as appropriate) combined with sufficiently probing questions can reveal those that are competent from those that are not, and more often than not, those that are self-educated to some degree (surely you don't believe that a college-educated person should stop there!) are of far more value than those that went through some formal program, got a piece of paper, and were content with that. There's far too much required towards the mastery of any field for any college degree or formal certifications afterwards to ever say much about how good you are: it can only state how much time, energy and money were involved in getting you a longer CV/resume. I've noticed many college graduates that were worthless, even though they got good grades in school.

You are certainly right in a way. Many certificates let you do just that. However, you can't really pass the better ones, like SCJD, without actually being able to apply your knowledge to practical problems.

Also, even though I am not a fan of certification myself, I believe that if someone took the time to prepare and take the exams for one, it means that he takes his job / himself seriously. And in my eyes, that is a good seller.

Spot on and +1. By the time most of us get to our mid 20s, we've all encountered our share of "mediocre graduates". As you say, anyone truly talented will use their degree as a springboard to a life of learning, not an end.

Have you ever noticed that the most hopeless graduates seem to be the ones who think they know it all because they have a degree?

I don't agree. I was working as a team lead for a bunch of Java developers - average one has a CS degree or Master's Degree in CS and some MS/Sun certification. One of them wrote a differential equation textbook.
I have only 1 year of University done in ex-Eastern Europe and I am programming since I was 12 (1984). I speak 4 languages, had successfull consulting career on 3 continents (Europe, North and South America). Have a track of delivering enterprise projects on time, my team and clients like to work with me. I worked in banking, telecom, insurance and airline industries, and still, I didn't create any disaster anywhere.

On other side, I interviewed CS graduates (for a Java developer position) who didn't know to explain static variable. It is sad.

So I don't understand your point - you shouldn't generalize your bad experience.

I was going to say the same (tho I am in the .NET/Microsoft Arena); the truth is if you say this, it looks like we are trying to defend our "lack" of degree. On the other hand, those who have a degree, are likely going to defend it. It's obvious. It's not easy nor cheap to get a degree or cert, but not everybody has the chance or the time to do it.

I myself founded a very sucessfully company and I haven't seen major "disasters" in my product; however, I have had "hands-dirty experience" in all my previous jobs. Just like Jeff Atwood says: "You don't want to be the smartest guy in the room".

All in all, I think that a degree helps to establish a minimum level of social experience. To get a CS you need to attend some kind of college, that means: new people, studying, working in there, etc. A guy who -like me- has no degree in Computer Science, didn't live the full College experience.

I attended three years to the University. But then I had to start working.

I might have not designed a CPU, but I know how it works and I don't feel like I need to know that by now.

In the end it all sounds like a defensive position for both parties; and it is. I'd love to have a CS degree if I could, just for the sake of simplicity. If you don't have it, lots of people will close your doors before even asking your name. A shame, but that's the way it is.

I have another degree, but has nothing to do with computers.

Edited 2008-02-05 10:09 UTC

"Also, I think in my opinion the lame excuse of certifications mean nothing what type of people are you talking about? If a company is investing the $3000+ and the air trip/hotel another $1000+ for a certification I hardly believe they view it has useless..."

Too bad most companies won't pay for certifications. Those come out of your own pocket.

I'm self-taught and tend to get paid 125USD/hr when I work on my own client stuff. I don't see where you're coming from, though I spend most of my free time reading books and playing with new code.

I think its important not to overlook all self-taught programmers/sysadmins, and generally is a good idea to see if they know what they're talking about. When I talk to various tech people, who have or don't have a degree, I'll throw them a dummy question to see if they know what they're talking about or are leading me.

I don't think many jobs apply to me, since I specialize in writing cross platform database applications in Python. Most of my work is based on WxWidgets or Django, and I usually work for medium to large businesses.

I also tend to do tech repair for fun, if I didn't programming might drive me insane. I'm a person which my ADD is really apparent if you're around me, so I try to focus on different tasks and activities. Probably another reason I wouldn't do well in school without figuring out first which drugs I need to focus. I'm a better do'er than a person who studies.

Personally, I call professional arrogance, since there are so many great techs and people who run medium to large companies who do NOT have a degree.

I hope to be a proud example and become one of the better businesses out there. Personally, I've 1 FT job as a system admin, also a couple PT jobs working for the city and as a contractor for a friend doing tech work. I've a good deal where I live, I get to do other work outside of the FT job if everything is done and/or on schedule.

Edited 2008-02-05 08:29 UTC

I'd agree with that if we're just looking for "good" programmers. But, the reason most companies don't bother interviewing non-degree weilding candidates is simply because it takes a lot of time (and therefore money) to give each candidate brought in a thorough look. And the simple fact of the matter is that you'll eliminate a lot of poor candidates that will waste your time by ignoring the self-taught types.

Most people won't argue that there are a lot of good or even great self-taught programmers out there, it's just finding them that's the problem. There are hordes of guys who picked up a PHP book, made a few websites, and now think they're ready for prime time. If you really are a great programmer, you probably realize this and are smart enough to see to distinguishing yourself from these guys.



This is a good example of one of the problems of self-taught programmers. Not to say this applies to you in particular, but a formal education gives you the fundamental understanding that lets you pick up any language or framework. A self-taught hack just knows how to do specific stuff with what he's used to. Someone that paid attention in their compsci classes has enough base understanding to pick up a new language in a week.



It used to be that people with ADD were just called stupid. Being able to pay attention to things is part of what is generally considered "intelligence". Maybe we should also cater to people with "memory deficit disorders" and "positive attitude deficit disorders" because it's not their fault!

There's your problem.



Probably because you didn't have the faintest idea who was being recruited, and you never talked with them once about what was required and talked about their past experience and development.

Ergo, you're the problem because you are not qualified to recruit anyone.



You're in an Enterprise Development Environment. What did you expect? If you give them guidance then you'll get what you want. If you don't give them guidance, and change the requirements umpteen times, they'll hack it together, take the money and run.



Because you can only learn by doing, and that's particularly the case with certifications and five day training courses.



They got ripped off by a training consultant who told them that they needed to re-train all their mainframe people in object-oriented development, .Net and Java in five days. You're in an enterprise environment, remember?

The biggest problem here is ejits working as IT managers and recruitment people who haven't got the faintest idea what's involved. IT is still a technical discipline, regardless of what anyone says, and woe betide anyone who thinks that isn't the case.