Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 14th Apr 2008 17:47 UTC, submitted by Brain
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Member since:2006-10-08
I applaud your energy to discuss this interesting (allthough off topic) concern further. So I'd like to comment on your last statements.
No, you are completely wrong. It IS correct. These were the official rules for deciding when to use ss and when to use ß. As I said, they said nothing about when to use ss/ß and when to use s. And it's not a suggestion, it's the official rule. Please accept that.
The first official rules have been introduced by Konrad Duden who unified the orthography in Germany. This tool place approx in 1900 (or a bit later) if I remember correctly. Duden did not "force" any rule, he just collected what the majoriry of the Germans within the German empire did use. His dictionary became the standard until 1995. After this point in time, the "Duden monopoly" regarding correct spelling has been abolished. Today, there are many dictionaries with contradicting suggestions. Because there is no official ruleset for correct orthography, any dictionary may be seen as a suggestion - you are free to rely on it, but you may not use it at all. This is the freedom represented in BVerfG ruling 1 BvR 1940 / 97 sentence 4. (This important sentence explains why there is no complete de facto use of the "new" rules.)
In relation to ß and ss, Duden did use the well proven rules by Adelung (individable ss is ß). Wether to use s or ss/ß was of course not selectable by this rule. You had to know, for example, that "muß" and "müssen" did require ß and ss, while "Zeugnis" just requires s.
Duden did not rely on the Heyse rule ("short vocal" rule) because it was an unneccessary complication, because first you would have to apply the Adelung rule (some ss into ß) and afterwards apply the Heyse rule (some of the ß back into ss).
1.) No, Zeugnis, Glas, Rasen are not written with ß/ss and are not affected by the rule. Again, the rule only differentiates between ss and ß.
Of course they are not written with ß or ss, but according to the "new" rule, they would have been to, because they do contain a "short vocal", and the "new" rule does not take anything else into mind. See example above.
2.) vocal lengths may be different in dialects, but if you don't speak High German, you have to learn the correct lengths. It's not that it's somehow arbitrary how to speak "Spaß" In High German, you HAVE TO speak it with a long a, hence it's written "Spaß"
The pronouncing rules are set by the german stage language (deutsche Bühnensprache) that has insofar nothing to do with the new high german (Neuhochdeutsch). Of course, this standardized way to pronounce words is a key part of native language education in school.
I may be easier, but the "vocal length suggestion" is the official rule, it's not a suggestion.
As I could prove, it's not, because it lacks any legal backup. You see this through the normative power of the fact - it isn't used by many students, by newspapers, magazines, and in books.
The vocals did matter and they do still matter. If you cannot use these rules, because you are from Bavaria and cannot speak High German properly, that's unfortunate, but doesn't change the rules. You're correct in that the Neusprech suggestion creates horrible looking words, but that's not the point here.
In fact, it is the point. :-) That's why this suggestion is used in a decreasing way. I think more and more Germans are coming back to standard orthography over the years.
This has NOTHING to do with dialects. The official rules are for High German, and e.g. Gras is never spoken with a short "a" in High German.
I think we have a misunderstanding here. Of course do dialects in no regards have influence to the correct spelling. Because dialects tend to differ from the standardizes pronouncing rules formed by the german stage language, there are so many problems why pupils don't understand where to write s, ss or ß. Because Neusprech encourages selection upon vocal lengths that the pupils don't have represented in the same way in their daily life, there are so many mistakes, for example "bissher" or "müßen".
Please stop using these silly examples. The rule doesn't say anything about when to use ss/ß and when to use s, so you cannot disprove the rule by trying to apply it to these cases.
I hope my explaination above has made my standpoint understandable. Because I think we even do agree here. It was my intention to illustrate the many problems dialectic implications bring towards spelling. This is due to the (incorrect) rule: "Write it as you speak / pronounce it" which is very comfortable, but leads into many mistakes.
I still work [in education[, and it's the same thing at the university – even the students cannot write properly anymore.
Yes, sadly that's true. I've seen so many presentations, papers and diploma thesises (I hope that's the correct plural!) - what a shame. Furthermore, the many "new" differing, contradicting and inexact rules have even bad influence on people who always thought they do write correctly, but today, they tend to think longer times... concatenated or separated, capitalized or not, comma or no comma, hyphenation where, etc.
You surely know the TV's Teletext / Videotext. There you can see other "nice" examples about how the "spelling reforms" are failing constantly.
Pupils, students and public service staff have to use these RULES. Other people can write the way they prefer.
No, this is not true.
1. Pupils have to use whatever ruleset the teacher uses. This differs from school to school, even from class to class. I'm sure you're familiar with the term Kleinstaaterei - every federal country has own rules for spelling. See BVerfG ruling 1 BvR 1640 / 97 sentence 2. Furthermore, most schools use outdated "Duden" editions or even other dictionaries (Bertelsmann, Pons) that do not contain the "official rules" presented in the ruling by the BVerfG. Furthermore, pupils are confronted with changing rules, so what may have been correct when they entered the school is wrong today (e. g. kennen lernen - kennenlernen). There is some important ruling of a Verwaltungsgericht (administrative court) that stengthens pupils' rights to be controlled according to the standard orthography (rather than an arbitrary collection of rules violating the initial suggestions from 1996).
2. Students are free to choose whatever orthography they like. See mentioned BVerfG sentence 4.
3. Officials have to use the rules presented in the BVerfG's ruling. These rules are not entirely represented in all the the "Dudens". They are nearly impossible to master. In fact, nobody uses them. When you read official text (from the government, an authority or something similar), you'll notice many mistakes. They do not master the (exactly: their) mandatory rules (Duden wordlist 1996 + ruleset BVerfG replay), nor do they master any ruleset. Spelling has become completely arbitrary, and this legally.
The legal situation is very clear and can be easily concluded from the ruling of the BVerfG and higher administrative courts.
Don't get me wrong, I do really like this kind of discussion, because it always proves the complete failure of a small clique that wants to control the language in order to sell new books, making wrong and stupid claims (Stengel is derived from Stange, Tolpatsch is derived from toll etc.) that cannot stand a simple scientifical examination.
Hey, Americans and Englishmen, would you like your government to completely mess up your language? Sometimes, I'm poking fun on "new english orfograffy". Finally, its the people who makes the language. I hope the Germans will notice one day, but from 1996 on, functional illitracy and legasthenia are the new goals of education. We call this Volksverdummung (dumbing down the people). It reminds me to 1984 - a book worth reading. Manipulation of the way (written language) thoughts are transmitted...
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Member since:
2006-09-16
"ss" if it's between two vocals and the first one is short (diphtongs count as long vocals)
"ß" otherwise
That's not entirely correct. Let me take the time to proove it.
"
No, you are completely wrong. It IS correct. These were the official rules for deciding when to use ss and when to use ß. As I said, they said nothing about when to use ss/ß and when to use s. And it's not a suggestion, it's the official rule. Please accept that.
According to that rule (or, let's call it suggestion, because it's nothing different), words like "bis" or "Zeugnis" would have to be written "biss" or "Zeugniss". Words like "Glas" or "Rasen" would have to be written "Glaß" or "Raßen". As you will agree, that's not correct. As I mentioned furthermore, "vocal lengths" are subject of dialects.
q.e.d. :-)
1.) No, Zeugnis, Glas, Rasen are not written with ß/ss and are not affected by the rule. Again, the rule only differentiates between ss and ß.
2.) vocal lengths may be different in dialects, but if you don't speak High German, you have to learn the correct lengths. It's not that it's somehow arbitrary how to speak "Spaß". In High German, you HAVE TO speak it with a long a, hence it's written "Spaß".
I don't know why you used the word "always"; the standard orthography defines individable ss to be written as ß. That's the simple rule. Allthough since the beginning of the reforms more and more suggestions occured, the standard rule is still present and used, by the way, more and more often, because it is easier to master than the "vocal length suggestion".
I may be easier, but the "vocal length suggestion" is the official rule, it's not a suggestion.
The vocals did matter and they do still matter. If you cannot use these rules, because you are from Bavaria and cannot speak High German properly, that's unfortunate, but doesn't change the rules. You're correct in that the Neusprech suggestion creates horrible looking words, but that's not the point here.
Because vocal lengths are a matter of dialects, you cannot tell for sure how a vocal is spoken. For example, "Gras" can be spoken with a long a and a short a, but in no case "Graß" or "Grass" is written.
This has NOTHING to do with dialects. The official rules are for High German, and e.g. Gras is never spoken with a short "a" in High German. Please stop using these silly examples. The rule doesn't say anything about when to use ss/ß and when to use s, so you cannot disprove the rule by trying to apply it to these cases.
This is the main reason why pupils today have so many problems regarding correct spelling. I've seen it all. I know it, I did work in education sector. :-)
I still work there, and it's the same thing at the university – even the students cannot write properly anymore.
"Probably it's sometimes difficult for people who speak a dialect and, e.g., pronounce "Spaß" with a short "a". But these people cannot say: "I do not accept the rules, because I cannot speak High German properly.";
As I proved, nobody needs to obey these suggestions (because they have no power of force).
"
Pupils, students and public service staff have to use these RULES. Other people can write the way they prefer.