Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 4th Aug 2009 10:43 UTC
SuSE, openSUSE SUSE Linux used to be a very KDE-centric distribution. Then Novell came around, bought SUSE and Ximian, and slowely but surely they turned the now-openSUSE distribution into effectively a GNOME-centric distribution with KDE as its sidekick. The openSUSE community, however, doesn't appear to be particularly happy with KDE being a sidekick.
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RE: Back in the day
by boldingd on Tue 4th Aug 2009 19:20 UTC in reply to "Back in the day"
boldingd
Member since:
2009-02-19

To chip it in, one thing I really dislike about KDE is that it generally doesn't play nicely with non KDE/QT apps. In general, you can mix Gnome, XFCE and GTK-general apps, and have everything behave more or less sanely -- Nautilus and PulseAudio in Blackbox also worked pretty well for me. Not so with KDE: you can use GTK-family apps, but they won't integrate well -- they may not even render or lay themselves out correctly or usably. You have the same problem with system-service type things that really should be DE-independant: on my Ubuntu lap-top, the wireless network-manager app works fine in Gnome and XFCE, but the KDE equivalent doesn't function, for example, and I've also had questions I couldn't get answered about the sound system -- like, can I get KDE to use Pulse Audio as Phonon's back-end, so that I can have multi-channel sound, and GTK apps will be happy? I don't know if this is an issue that is actively considered, but I bet, if you give distro-maintainers the choice between "the KDE universe" and "everything else," they'll choose the larger "everything else" community, and for good reason.

(This was supposed to be a top-level comment, not a reply, sorry. I don't know what I did.)

Edited 2009-08-04 19:21 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Back in the day
by robojerk on Tue 4th Aug 2009 19:49 in reply to "RE: Back in the day"
robojerk Member since:
2006-01-10

Gnome and XFCE are both GTK based.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[3]: Back in the day
by boldingd on Tue 4th Aug 2009 21:48 in reply to "RE[2]: Back in the day"
boldingd Member since:
2009-02-19

...yes, hence the repeated use of the phrase "gtk-family," or why I mentioned that this also affects lower-level things like the sound-server system or network management service. Or why I pointed out that you can use Gtk apps in BlackBox and not have them look fugly.

Reply Parent Score: 1

playing nicely
by waid0004 on Tue 4th Aug 2009 20:04 in reply to "RE: Back in the day"
waid0004 Member since:
2009-06-19

With KDE, I have found installing a packaged called gtk-qt-engine works well. Its a theme engine using Qt for GTK+ 2.x. It translates GTK calls into QT calls and makes most GTK apps look more KDE-like.

I take the old fashioned way out where I can. I configure sound from alsa and wireless from the command line (editing /etc/network/interfaces).

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Back in the day
by tbscope2 on Tue 4th Aug 2009 20:20 in reply to "RE: Back in the day"
tbscope2 Member since:
2009-02-14

I think you have it completely wrong.

KDE does EVERYTHING to integrate better with GNOME and other desktop environments. GNOME does relatively nothing to integrate with KDE.

GNOME programs that do not integrate with KDE is the fault of GNOME, not KDE. KDE programs that integrate very well with GNOME is not because of the glorious work of GNOME but because KDE tries to integrate the programs into GNOME.

Please try to understand that integration comes from all sides. KDE uses GNOME technology. What KDE technology does GNOME use?

Reply Parent Score: 8

RE[3]: Back in the day
by segedunum on Wed 5th Aug 2009 12:01 in reply to "RE[2]: Back in the day"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

KDE does EVERYTHING to integrate better with GNOME and other desktop environments. GNOME does relatively nothing to integrate with KDE.....Please try to understand that integration comes from all sides.

That's about the size of it. The KDE guys came up with QtGTK (a theming engine to make GTK apps fit into KDE moderately well). Did the GTK guys jump on board and make KDE and Qt apps fit into Gnome for users? Nope. The Trolltech guys had to do that work:

http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2008/09/05/qgtkstyle-now-part-of-qt...

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[2]: Back in the day
by anda_skoa on Tue 4th Aug 2009 20:25 in reply to "RE: Back in the day"
anda_skoa Member since:
2005-07-07

Not so with KDE: you can use GTK-family apps, but they won't integrate well -- they may not even render or lay themselves out correctly or usably.

Yeah, it is a pity these application developers don't know how to use GTK's facilities correctly to adapt to the environment they are running in.
Well, assuming that GTK has, just like Qt, facilities to allow application to be as native as possible depending on the environment they are running in.

You should probably consider contacting their respective developers to inquire whether their poor integration is something they decided not to care about or whether their technology stack doesn' provide the necessary features.

...I've also had questions I couldn't get answered about the sound system -- like, can I get KDE to use Pulse Audio as Phonon's back-end...


No, because Pulse Audio doesn't provide the required functionality, i.e. it isn't a multi media framework.

However, I am pretty sure that all multi media engines currently being used for Phonon Backends, e.g. GStreamer, Xine and mplayer, have the capability to output to Pulse Audio.
Maybe the one being used by you didn't get configured correctly if you are experiencing apps blocking each others sound output.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[3]: Back in the day
by sbergman27 on Tue 4th Aug 2009 20:36 in reply to "RE[2]: Back in the day"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

No, because Pulse Audio doesn't provide the required functionality, i.e. it isn't a multi media framework.

True. But surely it is only a matter of time before someone notices this and writes a new sound server, to replace PulseAudio, which addresses that deficit.

Edited 2009-08-04 20:36 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[3]: Back in the day
by liber on Tue 4th Aug 2009 22:14 in reply to "RE[2]: Back in the day"
liber Member since:
2008-10-26

The facilities to theme kde apps like gnome apps is a feature of qt (through qgtkstyle), and the facilities to theme gtk apps like qt is a project driven by a guy not in the gnome community.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Back in the day
by phoenix on Tue 4th Aug 2009 22:04 in reply to "RE: Back in the day"
phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

Not so with KDE: you can use GTK-family apps, but they won't integrate well -- they may not even render or lay themselves out correctly or usably.


That's the fault of the app developers, not the KDE devlopers. GTK doesn't play nicely with anything except GTK.

You have the same problem with system-service type things that really should be DE-independant: on my Ubuntu lap-top, the wireless network-manager app works fine in Gnome and XFCE, but the KDE equivalent doesn't function, for example,


Yes it does. In KDE3 you use network-manager-kde. In KDE4, you use the Network Management plasmoid. They both hook into NetworkManager, giving you access to the same config database that network-manager-gtk and the cli version use.

and I've also had questions I couldn't get answered about the sound system -- like, can I get KDE to use Pulse Audio as Phonon's back-end, so that I can have multi-channel sound, and GTK apps will be happy?


Yes. In KDE4, you go into System Settings, into Multimedia, and set the preference for output in the Xine/Phonon config to use PulseAudio. You can also change the Phonon config to use GStreamer instead of Xine if you want.

I don't know if this is an issue that is actively considered, but I bet, if you give distro-maintainers the choice between "the KDE universe" and "everything else," they'll choose the larger "everything else" community, and for good reason.


Problem with that philosophy is that it's backwards. KDE devs bend over backwards to make KDE apps integrate and play nicely with GNOME technology. GNOME devs (seemingly) couldn't give two shits about making things work well with KDE technology.

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[2]: Back in the day
by liber on Tue 4th Aug 2009 22:04 in reply to "RE: Back in the day"
liber Member since:
2008-10-26

I have actually found it to be the other way around. You can set qt apps to draw it's widgets through GTK (native GTK widgets, and thus fully using the gnome themes).

It is the gtk apps that won't play with others. The "outside" theming is a PITA (gtk-qt-engine is as good as it gets - no really native stuff there).

It is not the KDE guys that are responsible for GTK running nicely with KDE - it is GTK. And of cource the other way around: It is not gnomes responsibility to make sure that Qt apps run good in gnome.

I run both things, and it is A HELL LOT EASIER to make sure KDE apps look native in gnome, than making gtk apps look good in kde.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[3]: Back in the day
by lemur2 on Tue 4th Aug 2009 23:47 in reply to "RE[2]: Back in the day"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

I run both things, and it is A HELL LOT EASIER to make sure KDE apps look native in gnome, than making gtk apps look good in kde.


Install gtk-chtheme under KDE. Install some GTK themes. Run gtk-chtheme as a user, and again as root. From the list of those available select the GTK theme that best matches your preferred KDE theme. Select the same font for GTK as your KDE theme uses.

How hard is it?

PS: copy the .gtk2rc file (or some name like that, I can't recall exactly what it is) to the directory /etc/skel and subsequently all new users will have he correct GTK+ theme selected by default.

Edited 2009-08-04 23:58 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2