Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 6th Jan 2010 20:01 UTC
Internet Explorer It would appear that Microsoft will finally take standards compliance in the browser world seriously, after dragging its feet for years. Back in November 2009, the Redmond giant already revealed that Internet Explorer 9 would come with CSS3 and HTML5 support, and now the cup runneth over, as Microsoft has requested to join the W3C's SVG Working Group.
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Comment by Kroc
by Kroc on Wed 6th Jan 2010 20:34 UTC
Kroc
Member since:
2005-11-10

And when they do finally ship a reasonably decent browser, most developers won’t have a clue how to target these new capabilities because they’ve been sitting around waiting for 2022 before learning how to do what has already been possible to do in other browsers for years now.

If you haven’t developed something that doesn’t work in IE yet, then you are already behind the times.

I won’t be changing my code to work with IE—I’ll be expecting IE to start working with my code.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by Kroc
by nt_jerkface on Wed 6th Jan 2010 20:55 in reply to "Comment by Kroc"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

And when they do finally ship a reasonably decent browser


You do realize that CSS3 and HTML5 are draft standards, right? Is your definition of a "decent" browser to mean one that ships with unfinished standards?

I've worked with IE8 and I've had very few problems with it. I really think a lot of this IE bashing is carried over from the IE6 days.

As for trying to replace Flash with (draft) HTML5 it won't make a difference until Google switches youtube over. Google is actually in the best position when it comes to ridding the world of Flash but they seem to be taking their sweet time.

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[2]: Comment by Kroc
by Kroc on Wed 6th Jan 2010 21:02 in reply to "RE: Comment by Kroc"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

IE8 is very good, but it still lacks decent JS, lacks Canvas, lacks HTML5 Video/Audio, lacks client-side databases, lacks web workers and lacks SVG (a 9 year old standard).

Edited 2010-01-06 21:02 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by Kroc
by kaiwai on Wed 6th Jan 2010 23:45 in reply to "RE: Comment by Kroc"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

You do realize that CSS3 and HTML5 are draft standards, right? Is your definition of a "decent" browser to mean one that ships with unfinished standards?

I've worked with IE8 and I've had very few problems with it. I really think a lot of this IE bashing is carried over from the IE6 days.

As for trying to replace Flash with (draft) HTML5 it won't make a difference until Google switches youtube over. Google is actually in the best position when it comes to ridding the world of Flash but they seem to be taking their sweet time.


Agreed; that is the only reason why I have Flash installed - so I can watch YouTube. If there was no need to use Flash with YouTube, it would be the first thing I would uninstall if I had the chance.

The problem is that there are still large numbers of online stores that use Flash extensively unfortunately - and Microsoft dragging their heals isn't helping the situation.

As for draft; the whole HTML5 might be in 'draft' but there are parts of the draft that are finalised and static; they've already been hashed out and all the parties agree with it - why not implement those ones? Limur IIRC listed a huge array of technologies, some existing in stable form for over a decade that haven't been implemented by Microsoft yet. Lets not try to kid ourselves, the moment that HTML5 does gain traction I can assure you Microsoft and Adobe will be running for cover.

I suggest all those Microsoft apologists who can't help but apologise for Microsoft to have a look at over a decade of obstruction or non-participation by Microsoft when it comes to open standards. They sat on OASIS for the ODF specification, knew that it didn't fulfill the requierments of being suitable for Microsoft Office - but did they contribute *ANYTHING* so that it could be transformed into a first class file format for Microsoft Office? of course not. They sat by and did nothing - and when the format was finalised all they did was bash the OASIS group for having a format that didn't address all the Microsoft features (where the hell were you Microsoft when you could have provided input in the design phase?!).

Then there is HTML5, again, what contributions have they made - there is a stalemate when it comes to the default video format - why doesn't Microsoft office the VC-1 format royalty free for open source browser and CODEC projects? Silly me! that would actually require Microsoft to realise that the whole world doesn't revolve around them and that they do actually have to contribute something to the larger ecosystem besides obstructing the development of standards.

Quite frankly, to put up the issue about IE6 for the bad reputation of Internet Explorer in general is disingenuous - the issue goes well beyond simply that of Internet Explorer and covers the entire company culture that encourages balkanisation of standards, obstructing standards from being developed or simply standing back not doing anything to improve standards then turn around a month later after it has been standardised simply to bad mouth it.

Edited 2010-01-06 23:48 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 8

RE[2]: Comment by Kroc
by Delgarde on Thu 7th Jan 2010 08:56 in reply to "RE: Comment by Kroc"
Delgarde Member since:
2008-08-19

You do realize that CSS3 and HTML5 are draft standards, right? Is your definition of a "decent" browser to mean one that ships with unfinished standards?


Why not? All the other serious browsers do - Firefox, Chrome, Safari. More than that, the people making those browsers are, in part, the same people making the standards - implementing those drafts allows people to actually try them out, feeding their experience back into the standards process.

I've worked with IE8 and I've had very few problems with it. I really think a lot of this IE bashing is carried over from the IE6 days.


Agreed, IE8 is a huge improvement over it's predecessors, and a fairly decent browser - it's corrected the worst of those predecessor's idiosyncrasies, and it's design seems robust.

Problem is, it's still a long way behind where it's competitors are now, and with it's long release cycles, IE doesn't evolve quickly enough to catch up. By the time IE9 is released in a year or two, it's capabilities will probably be comparable to what the other browsers do *now*. Where will those browsers be by then?

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by Kroc
by pooo on Sat 9th Jan 2010 12:22 in reply to "RE: Comment by Kroc"
pooo Member since:
2006-04-22

You obviously haven't worked with ie7 much.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment by Kroc
by reez on Sun 10th Jan 2010 13:29 in reply to "RE: Comment by Kroc"
reez Member since:
2006-06-28

You do realize that CSS3 and HTML5 are draft standards, right? Is your definition of a "decent" browser to mean one that ships with unfinished standards?

I've worked with IE8 and I've had very few problems with it. I really think a lot of this IE bashing is carried over from the IE6 days.

As for trying to replace Flash with (draft) HTML5 it won't make a difference until Google switches youtube over. Google is actually in the best position when it comes to ridding the world of Flash but they seem to be taking their sweet time.


Yes, you can and should use HTML5. Here is why:
"Finished" is a big deal... You'll be able to use HTML5 long before then.(snip)

It is estimated by the editor that HTML5 will reach the W3C Candidate Recommendation stage during 2012. That doesn't mean you can't start using it yet, though. Different parts of the specification are at different maturity levels. Some sections are already relatively stable and there are implementations that are already quite close to completion, and those features can be used today (e.g. <canvas>). But other sections are still being actively worked on and changed regularly, or not even written yet.

You can use some of them now. Others might take a few more years to get widely implemented. Here are some sites that might help you work out what you can use in the meantime:

* http://diveintohtml5.org/

If you know of any more (or if you have some yourself) then add them to the list! If there are some on the list that aren't very useful compared to the rest, them remove them!

http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#When_will_HTML5_be_finished.3F
http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#When_will_we_be_able_to_start_using...


The main reason is that HTML5 will become a recommendation, as soon as all bigger browsers support it. This won't happen until IE also adopts it (or it market share shrinks to a negligible size). So yes, IE needs to have HTML5 support to be decent!

Edited 2010-01-10 13:30 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: Comment by Kroc
by Hiev on Thu 7th Jan 2010 02:10 in reply to "Comment by Kroc"
Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

And I wonder what kind of super standar code are you writing that IE won't render you know, because if the NASA community page its being writen with ASP.NET Ajax and ASP.NET MVC then your code must be a lot superior.

Edited 2010-01-07 02:10 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment by Kroc
by Kroc on Thu 7th Jan 2010 07:56 in reply to "RE: Comment by Kroc"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

http://camendesign.com for starters, but that doesn’t include any of the more advanced unfinished stuff I’m doing with Canvas.

Edited 2010-01-07 07:57 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1