Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sun 17th Jan 2010 23:38 UTC, submitted by OSGuy
Legal Just when you thought the legal battle between Nokia and Apple couldn't get any more convoluted, Apple has filed its own complaint with the US International Trade Commission, seeking to have Nokia's products banned from the US market because they infringe on Apple's patents.
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Budd
Member since:
2005-07-08

Would you please back this with a document/link etc. Basically, a contract between Apple and,say,Qualcomm.Apple not being part of the GSM association (at least this morning they weren't) they are not bound to the RAND terms.
Thank you.
PS: is not like I don't believe,but I didn't see any official info. Media is saying Apple thinks it pays too much (which is BS since they must have access to the contract numbers) or that Nokia is seeking patent for patent (again,pure speculation).

Reply Parent Score: 2

JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Would you please back this with a document/link etc. Basically, a contract between Apple and,say,Qualcomm.Apple not being part of the GSM association (at least this morning they weren't) they are not bound to the RAND terms.
Thank you.
PS: is not like I don't believe,but I didn't see any official info. Media is saying Apple thinks it pays too much (which is BS since they must have access to the contract numbers) or that Nokia is seeking patent for patent (again,pure speculation).


A very select amount of people know such details. And those are not publicised.

Reply Parent Score: 1

elsewhere Member since:
2005-07-13

Would you please back this with a document/link etc. Basically, a contract between Apple and,say,Qualcomm.Apple not being part of the GSM association (at least this morning they weren't) they are not bound to the RAND terms.


When the GSM standard was established, the companies with technology deemed essential for implementing the standard agreed that those patents would be made available under RAND terms. You're basically talking about Nokia, Ericsson, Motorola and Qualcomm holding the bulk.

The problem is that there is no clear definition for RAND. From the moment the first GSM network was lit up, the licensing situation has been a big steaming cup of ugly. All of the players played silly bugger at some point with their licensing requirements, and it was several years before the tech was made available to handset manufacturers that weren't part of the intial standard (mostly the Asian manufacturers), and that probably only came around from pressure on behalf of the providers and government.

So the long and the short of it is that, while the patent holders agreed to RAND license terms, those terms were not laid out and are pretty much in the control of the patent holders. It's not like other standards such as the media codecs, where there is pretty much a published price list for royalties that go into a pool and are distributed to the patent holders. GSM tech requires licensing directly with the patent holders.

Being a member of the GSM Association is not a pre-requisite for implementing the standard (RIM isn't, either), but by the same token, the GSM Association will certainly not attempt to mediate or pressure Nokia on behalf of Apple.

PS: is not like I don't believe,but I didn't see any official info. Media is saying Apple thinks it pays too much (which is BS since they must have access to the contract numbers) or that Nokia is seeking patent for patent (again,pure speculation).


Your right about Apple's claims about paying too much, since they don't have access to the license agreements with other manufacturers, those are all protected under pretty heavy NDAs, so is simply speculation on Apple's part.

The way the game is played is that the manufacturers leverage their own patent portfolios for cross-licensing when negotiating prices. If a company like Motorola licenses from Nokia, they are paying considerably less than a manufacturer like HTC, since they are offering up and licensing their own patents that Nokia requires as part of the agreement. In some cases it could simply be a cross-licensing agreement with no royalties, or it could be reduced royalty fees based on the perceived value of each party's patent pool.

One could argue that this is a bit unfair to the manufacturers that are not part of that core group of companies, since they would likely pay higher fees, but the counter to that is that they haven't had to make the multi-billion dollar investments in developing the technology either.

Nokia is trying to establish an agreement that would include a license fee and cross-licensing of certain patents from Apple. Apple is balking at the fee, and doesn't want to license their patents in return.

This is a double-edged sword for Apple, because not only are they facing a very large battle with Nokia, but they could find themselves in a similar position with the other technology holders for licensing future devices. Apple does not have the R&D capabilities to play alongside this little cartel, and is always going to be reliant on patent licensing as long as they want to play in the communications game. By refusing to use their own patents in negotiating, as all the other manufacturers do, they may find themselves walled out.

Reply Parent Score: 2