Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 10th Nov 2010 23:31 UTC
In the News Wait, what - let me get this straight. A powerful politician, a politician who managed to bring even the largest companies to their knees, is on the side of reason in the copyright debate? Yes, Neelie Kroes, in her capacity as European Commissioner for Digital Agenda, has openly expressed her support for copyright reform. Her argumentation is incredibly lucid and clear, and pretty much echoes everything I've written about copyright here on OSNews.
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RE[5]: Heh
by Thom_Holwerda on Fri 12th Nov 2010 14:38 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Heh"
Thom_Holwerda
Member since:
2005-06-29

Luckily, evidence suggests that what you call "socialism" (it isn't, really) is making people happier than whatever the hell America is doing. Check the lists - Scandinavian countries and The Netherlands consistently rank among the best countries to live, the most free, with the happiest people, the best education systems, and the best healthcare.

While the US is entirely flat-broke six times over not being "socialist", with people not being able to pay for basic things like healthcare and education, countries that are "socialist" have more stable economies, only half the unemployment rate, and practically no poverty - as opposed to the 20% of the US population living under the poverty line.

I have two suggestions for you:

1) learn what "socialism" means
2) look at the facts. The US is failing, and failing hard in just about every aspect, while "socialist" countries are doing incredibly well.

Remember: ask any Dutchmen about things like proper healthcare and education, and you'll see most ofus are perfectly fine with paying higher taxes to support our fellow men and women. We are simply not asocial and egocentric.

Edited 2010-11-12 14:39 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[6]: Heh
by ndrw on Fri 12th Nov 2010 16:50 in reply to "RE[5]: Heh"
ndrw Member since:
2009-06-30

(You sound a lot like one old man from former East Germany that was telling me how wonderful and prosperous state it was. Well, it wasn't, really. And now most countries seem to follow that model more and more closely.)

USA has a problem with its debt. That has nothing to do with being a socialist or a capitalist state and a lot to do with living out of their credit cards. Of course extensive social welfare programs are not helping them them to keep their books clean, neither do military actions or blowing up bubble after bubble. And if you haven't noticed yet, USA is not the only country experiencing these problems. You'd actually have to search for a country that isn't currently loaded with debt.

As for prosperous Scandinavia, here is an interesting excerpt from Wikipedia page about Sweden:

"However, from the 1970s and onwards Sweden's GDP growth fell behind other industrialized countries and the country's per capita ranking fell from the 4th to 14th place in a few decades."

In short: socialism is good if you have pockets full of money and strong industry to start with (extensive natural resources will also prove useful). To be fair, Sweden is doing unusually well for a socialist state, especially if you compare their decline with that of Cuba.

To come back to the original topic: people tend to take copyright (or pension, or free medical care) for granted and treat them very seriously. I can't help the feeling that in case of even a minor military conflict or a somewhat larger economic crisis, all these matters would be last on our lists of priorities. It is that perceived safety and prosperity that makes us forget about more important matters and indulge in illusions. Copyright (leaked information is copyable, you don't need a "right", you need a "copier"), pension ("sorry, there is no money", or "your family is your insurance"), free medical care ("what care?") are all only illusions of our rights. We only really have what we have earned.

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE[7]: Heh
by Thom_Holwerda on Fri 12th Nov 2010 17:03 in reply to "RE[6]: Heh"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

n short: socialism is good if you have pockets full of money and strong industry to start with (extensive natural resources will also prove useful). To be fair, Sweden is doing unusually well for a socialist state, especially if you compare their decline with that of Cuba.


Comparing Sweden to Cuba?

Like I said: please read up on what "socialism" is. I'm not going to have a serious discussion with someone who equates Cuba with Sweden. It just shows your total and utter lack of understanding of how modern European welfare states, like Sweden and The Netherlands, are organised.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: Heh
by Veto on Sat 13th Nov 2010 11:33 in reply to "RE[6]: Heh"
Veto Member since:
2010-11-13

You sound a lot like one old man from former East Germany...

A comment like that only makes your ignorance more obvious.

USA has a problem with its debt. That has nothing to do with being a socialist or a capitalist state

It has everything to do with having politicians in the pockets of big corporations.

To be fair, Sweden is doing unusually well for a socialist state, especially if you compare their decline with that of Cuba.

Again. Comparing Cuba with Sweden only serves to expose your ignorance. They are two very different countries.

free medical care ("what care?") are all only illusions of our rights. We only really have what we have earned.

Yes. But earned individually or as a society?

What you call "socialism" in Europe is not about equal living, but about equal rights and equal opportunity. In USA all rights and opportunities seem most proportional with the size of your wallet.

In th USA who is most likely to go to jail: The rich murderer or the poor innocent black kid?

In the USA who is most likely to go to university: The rich dunce or the poor smart?

In the USA who is most likely to be elected: The guy with a vision or the guy serving the corporations?

In the USA who is most likely to get proper medical treatment: The guy working with dangerous chemicals his whole life or his boss with obesity induced heart problems?

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[6]: Heh
by _Nine_ on Sun 14th Nov 2010 07:55 in reply to "RE[5]: Heh"
_Nine_ Member since:
2010-10-13

The Netherlands has its own share of problems, including the lack of assimilation of immigrant populations, which are now influencing Dutch politics.

I have asked Dutchmen about such things. They, too, have claimed that the average standard of living is pretty good. It is reasonable to have a decent paying job, live in a nice flat, drive a nice car, and not have to worry about healthcare. However, your ability to make a lot of money is limited. Very few people are poor, but very few people are rich. So, you trade your shot at being a millionaire for the security that comes from having your basic needs provided for by the government.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[7]: Heh
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 14th Nov 2010 10:21 in reply to "RE[6]: Heh"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

However, your ability to make a lot of money is limited. Very few people are poor, but very few people are rich. So, you trade your shot at being a millionaire for the security that comes from having your basic needs provided for by the government.


ORLY?

0.7% of the Dutch population is a millionaire (ranked 13th worldwide), vs. 1% in the US (all converted to USD). ZOMG 0.3% fewer millionaires? Small price to pay for better healthcare, better education system, and practically no poverty.

Reply Parent Score: 1