Linked by Hadrien Grasland on Tue 25th Jan 2011 15:29 UTC, submitted by sparklewind
BeOS & Derivatives A few months ago, a bounty for porting Gallium3D to Haiku was submitted. As the target sum of $2000 has been reached, what's needed now is a developer interested in doing the actual coding work. (Gallium3D is a cross-platform video driver API, on which an increasing number of open-source Linux drivers are based.)
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umccullough
Member since:
2006-01-26

Why not accept that people actually knew what they were voting for and that I knew what I was talking about above?


Because I *seriously* doubt the > 1000 poll takers that I was referring to have tried Haiku on a large percentage of hardware. Out of the dozen or so machines I have tested Haiku on (mostly machines that are between 3 and 10 years old), the only one that springs to mind as having no accelerated video currently is my new Atom D510 with Intel's N10 video. I do have a Radeon HD machine that I use for a media center which probably doesn't work either, but I haven't tested Haiku on it yet.

No recent GPU that I've tried (various radeon and nvidia cards) supports HD modes or 2D acceleration.


And, so, what do you propose is the solution to this problem of modern AMD/nvidia cards not having working 2d acceleration support? Clearly Haiku supports 2d acceleration and modesetting, and only the drivers are missing. Are you proposing that Haiku needs to implement the Linux graphics stack and port all the Linux drivers (including closed source, binary ones from nvidia)?

Note: This is different than the 3d acceleration problem where there is no current example of working 3d acceleration in Haiku. That is why I believe the Gallium3d port is arguably more important.

And while we're quoting my emails, why not also include this bit:

I didn't intend to imply we should ignore the result entirely - what I meant to imply is that the result is of little value. It doesn't tell us which hardware we need to focus efforts on first - we're obviously
not going to have video mode setting drivers for every piece of hardware ready for R1, so setting that goal will basically delay R1 indefinitely.


Edited 2011-01-26 21:21 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

adamk Member since:
2005-07-08

"Why not accept that people actually knew what they were voting for and that I knew what I was talking about above?


Because I *seriously* doubt the > 1000 poll takers that I was referring to have tried Haiku on a large percentage of hardware
"

They don't need to have tried it on a large percentage of hardware. They need to have tested it on their hardware and run into a problem with modesetting. I see no reason to doubt that's the case.


And, so, what do you propose is the solution to this problem of modern AMD/nvidia cards not having working 2d acceleration support? Clearly Haiku supports 2d acceleration and modesetting, and only the drivers are missing. Are you proposing that Haiku needs to implement the Linux graphics stack and port all the Linux drivers (including closed source, binary ones from nvidia)?


No need to implement the binary ones. nouveau supports 2D acceleration, as does radeon. I can't speak directly about nouveau, but there isn't a radeon GPU (currently released) that doesn't have 2D acceleration and modesetting in open source drivers on linux. And, no, I don't suggest reimplementing the linux graphics stack. I suggest focusing on further development of the 2D drivers for Haiku that already exist to support more modern GPUs.


Note: This is different than the 3d acceleration problem where there is no current example of working 3d acceleration in Haiku. That is why I believe the Gallium3d port is arguably more important.


I would consider an example of working 3D acceleration in Haiku to be a low priority if users are going to have a hard time getting modesetting working on most of the GPUs you can currently buy off the shelf.

If the developers can't keep up with 2D acceleration for GPUs on the market, what's going to happen with the 3D support? In two years time, that 3D driver is going to support GPUs not easily available, and the 2D situation will be even worse than it is now.

In fact let's take a look at the situation with radeon GPUs (since they are the ones I'm most familiar with). gallium3d currently supports 3D acceleration on all radeons from the r300 family and up. r300, r400, and r500 are supported via the r300g driver. r600 and higher (up to the Northern Islands / r900) are supported via the r600g driver. Which of those GPUs have 2D acceleration and modesetting in Haiku? r300 and r400. There may be a few places where you can still buy those GPUs, but by the time the gallium3d port is completed, finding one will be a challenge to even the best shopper.

BTW, that's 5 generations of radeon GPUs that have no acceleration or modesetting. Some of those, obviously, may support HD resolutions if the video card itself is programmed with them, but that is not the case with the dozen AMD video card I've tested here.


And while we're quoting my emails, why not also include this bit:

"I didn't intend to imply we should ignore the result entirely - what I meant to imply is that the result is of little value. It doesn't tell us which hardware we need to focus efforts on first - we're obviously
not going to have video mode setting drivers for every piece of hardware ready for R1, so setting that goal will basically delay R1 indefinitely.
"

Because, frankly, I don't find the poll results of little value. I see no reason to take the results at anything but face value.

Edited 2011-01-26 23:15 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

umccullough Member since:
2006-01-26

No need to implement the binary ones. nouveau supports 2D acceleration, as does radeon. I can't speak directly about nouveau, but there isn't a radeon GPU (currently released) that doesn't have 2D acceleration and modesetting in open source drivers on linux. And, no, I don't suggest reimplementing the linux graphics stack. I suggest focusing on further development of the 2D drivers for Haiku that already exist to support more modern GPUs.


Well, since you suggest a blanket "focus on development of 2d drivers", I'll challenge that this is not the best use of resources. Especially since Haiku developers are volunteers, unpaid, etc. They're only likely to work on hardware drivers for chips that they own. And I *do* have a suggestion.

Back to my point that it would probably be better to identify the *important* chips to support rather than all of them, I propose that when a Haiku user runs into a card that doesn't have native driver support, they should actually file an enhancement ticket in Trac: http://dev.haiku-os.org - Until that happens, we can't possibly track what the actual users of Haiku are running into, hardware support wise.

I think Haiku should add ticket voting support to Haiku's Trac so that other people who use the same hardware can vote that enhancement request up. Eventually we'll *know* which cards are most important, and can focus our development efforts as such.

This would be a MUCH more manageable approach than putting out a vague poll about this topic and then hoping that the Haiku developers will magically just work on it. This would also allow funding of hardware purchases for developers to work on the most important chips first.

Reply Parent Score: 3