Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sun 26th Jun 2011 12:13 UTC
Privacy, Security, Encryption Well, after 50 days of causing amok on the web, the guys and/or girls behind LulzSec have called it quits last night. After hacking into the systems of various Arizona law enforcement agencies and releasing countless internal documents, they published a statement on Pastebin yesterday, dumping yet another boatload of data on The Pirate Bay, and announcing their disbanding.
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RE[3]: Democracy
by spiderman on Mon 27th Jun 2011 13:27 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Democracy"
spiderman
Member since:
2008-10-23

Democracy is not about voting. Your country gives you an illusion of democracy that looks like democracy from within. They teach you that you live in a democracy since birth and the proof is that you vote. Actually they cherry pick the citizens based on the money they have. If there was a real democracy, all the immigrants would have the same power as the other citizens no matter how much money they have. As it stands, many immigrants are illegal. They still live under your law but it's not the same law that you live under and they have no say in whatever. You call them illegals and pretend to have democracy. This is a joke.

Edited 2011-06-27 13:34 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[4]: Democracy
by ricegf on Mon 27th Jun 2011 15:27 in reply to "RE[3]: Democracy"
ricegf Member since:
2007-04-25

That's truly bizarre. Have you ever even been to the USA?

"Actually they cherry pick the citizens based on the money they have. "

Who's "they"? A person is a citizen who was born or naturalized here. I know several naturalized citizens, none of whom are wealthy. I know not one person in the homeless shelters and missions in which I've worked over the past few decades that have ever had their citizenship revoked. Not one.

"If there was a real democracy, all the immigrants would have the same power as the other citizens no matter how much money they have."

An immigrant who is a naturalized citizen has the same power as any other, with trivial exceptions. Ever heard of Arnold Swartzenagger, recent governor of California? Immigrant.

"As it stands, many immigrants are illegal. They still live under your law..."

They live in violation of our law. By definition - that's why they are "illegal". The solution is to obtain a green card and become a legal immigrant by "living under our law".

Seriously, which country in the world do you propose would allow me to fly in for an afternoon and vote in their elections. Why would they want to permit that?

I think you've been reading some seriously misleading blogs!

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: Democracy
by spiderman on Mon 27th Jun 2011 16:45 in reply to "RE[4]: Democracy"
spiderman Member since:
2008-10-23

That's truly bizarre. Have you ever even been to the USA?
I didn't single out the USA. Most of western Europe is just like that.

They live in violation of our law. By definition - that's why they are "illegal". The solution is to obtain a green card and become a legal immigrant by "living under our law".

Seriously, which country in the world do you propose would allow me to fly in for an afternoon and vote in their elections. Why would they want to permit that?

Again, democracy is not about voting. The green card should be given to whoever requests it and people should be given all the rights to education, information and access to resources that democracy entails. If you vote to deny access to democracy for a part of the people then you vote against democracy.
If you want to select and cherry pick your immigrants and call those you didn't pick illegals, then you don't have democracy. The illegals are still people and under a democracy they don't exist since the people has the power.

Edited 2011-06-27 16:51 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: Democracy
by Alfman on Mon 27th Jun 2011 21:15 in reply to "RE[4]: Democracy"
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

ricegf,

"They live in violation of our law. By definition - that's why they are 'illegal'. The solution is to obtain a green card and become a legal immigrant by 'living under our law'."

Green card holders do not vote in the USA, despite being legal residents. They abide by the laws, pay the same taxes, but no voting rights. Is this different in other countries?

But anyway my take is that voting is one ingredient for a genuine democracy. But by itself voting is insufficient - the government needs to be transparent to the people, there cannot be secrets from the people. Democratic governments must make laws for the people, not in spite of them or to control them. Whistle-blowing sources like wikileaks are in fact integral to democracy.

I make the claim that, in democracy, there is no distinction between "government" and "the people", they're one and the same. Of course you've mentioned that the US is a republic, and that's true. Effectively it doesn't matter how the people feel about anything if there's an elite political class who entitle themselves to write laws in their own image.

Take for example billionaire mayor bloomburg in NY, who changed the laws on term restrictions in order to continue "serving" as mayor past legal limits. Noone can compete politically against his wealth and power. His single voice overrides millions of critics - that's not democracy.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: Democracy
by gilljr on Tue 28th Jun 2011 00:01 in reply to "RE[3]: Democracy"
gilljr Member since:
2008-01-30

FYI: The United States of America is a Republic and not a Democracy.

I live in Arizona and have issues with your comments and animosity. There are monetary requirements and health requirements to become a US citizen if you are not born into the country. The US does not want new citizens to become a burden to the system and draw welfare. They have determined this the best way to reduce that risk. I personally have sponsored 2 immigrants to become citizens and neither one of them met the monetary requirements without my help. One is now a productive US citizen and the other will be soon. The only thing that is a joke is your lack of knowledge on the subject.

The US and the State of Arizona provide protections to all people including illegal immigrants. In fact, we provide more protections than most countries.

Arizona is a major traffic path for people entering the US illegally. This has put enormous strain on our State's resources (other States do not have this strain) that the federal government is not willing to cover. The citizens are now enacting laws to discourage illegal immigrants from entering and staying by taking away free services and enabling local law enforcement to supplement the federal law enforcement. These laws are meant to relieve the burden on the State, nothing more.

Unfortunately, it is not in the federal government's interest to put up more than a token effort in stopping illegal immigration. There are powerful lobbing forces (farmers are the ones that come to mind first, but there are others) that do not want illegals to leave because they can be paid lower than legal wages under the table. I think you find this in many countries with high labor costs.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[5]: Democracy
by smitty on Tue 28th Jun 2011 01:09 in reply to "RE[4]: Democracy"
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

FYI: The United States of America is a Republic and not a Democracy.

Definitely. A true democracy is not possible.

The US and the State of Arizona provide protections to all people including illegal immigrants. In fact, we provide more protections than most countries.

Something often forgotten is that the same issues are happening all around the world. France in particular has had a lot of immigration problems, and I don't think Arizona is particularly worse than any other country.

Arizona is a major traffic path for people entering the US illegally. This has put enormous strain on our State's resources (other States do not have this strain) that the federal government is not willing to cover. The citizens are now enacting laws to discourage illegal immigrants from entering and staying by taking away free services and enabling local law enforcement to supplement the federal law enforcement. These laws are meant to relieve the burden on the State, nothing more.

I'm not sure there's been any serious study actually showing this. Most of the ones I've heard have shown that immigrants have helped the economy by providing cheap labor. That may hurt a few parts of the economy in exchange for helping others, but let's be honest - that's not the reason for what's happening in Arizona. It's because they are easy scapegoats. Unemployment hits 10% because of the bad economy? Govt spending exceeds tax revenue? Must be the illegal immigrant problem, because the government sure doesn't want you to blame them. It really doesn't matter whether or not unemployment would have been 5% or 15% without the immigrants, they're going to take the blame.

And to be fair, they are in the country illegally. So I don't think they have any right to complain.

Unfortunately, it is not in the federal government's interest to put up more than a token effort in stopping illegal immigration. There are powerful lobbing forces (farmers are the ones that come to mind first, but there are others) that do not want illegals to leave because they can be paid lower than legal wages under the table. I think you find this in many countries with high labor costs.

Yep. Ultimately it's not going to be possible to stop illegal immigration as long as the money is available to them. Stop the corporations and farms from hiring them, and they'll stop coming. Is that doable? Certainly - but it's going to piss off big business, which is why it won't happen. Instead, we'll get ineffective half-measures that let politicians tell people they're doing something while still letting businesses take advantage.

While I don't have any problem with the countries immigration laws, I do admit to being troubled by the one in Arizona that requires them to have papers at all times. Even though i can see the logical reasoning behind it, the law will forever be linked in my mind to the way Germany required Jews to carry id. At the time, Jews were blamed by common society for many of the problems of the day, just like immigrants are now. I realize that the current government would never go on to do what the Nazis did, but for me the situations are already too similar to feel comfortable with.

Edited 2011-06-28 01:13 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: Democracy
by vitae on Tue 28th Jun 2011 01:21 in reply to "RE[4]: Democracy"
vitae Member since:
2006-02-20

I think Arizonans expect too much from the Federal government. Sorry, but this is Arizona's problem being a border state, and if they don't like the job the U.S. government is doing, they are free to build a wall 50 feet high or whatever AT THEIR OWN EXPENSE (not the U.S. taxpayer's).

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: Democracy
by spiderman on Tue 28th Jun 2011 06:05 in reply to "RE[4]: Democracy"
spiderman Member since:
2008-10-23

I don't accept the "we do more than other countries" as an excuse. Your country is not the other countries. In my country I hear it all the time. They always take the other countries as an excuse. Even if that was true that other countries do less than mine, so what? This is not an excuse to stagnate while the others catch up. They will never catch up because they use the same excuse. Actually this excuse is conservative. Progress is only possible when you stop waiting for others to catch up.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: Democracy
by bryanv on Tue 28th Jun 2011 17:34 in reply to "RE[3]: Democracy"
bryanv Member since:
2005-08-26

They aren't living -under- the law. They're living outside of it. Their continued presence is a violation of the law -- hence ILLEGAL.

Also, if they're here living under our law, then why aren't they PAYING TAXES LIKE THE REST OF THE VOTING POPULATION?!

Yet, they continue to receive the benefits of social services paid for by the rest of the LEGAL, VOTING, TAX-PAYING POPULATION.

We damn well ought to be able to tell them to f**k off and go home. If they want to participate in our society, there are legal ways in which to do that. It's a process engineered to weed out the leeches, and to reward those individuals and families which genuinely want to live, contribute, and flourish in our society.

The rest of the leeches can GTFO.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: Democracy
by spiderman on Tue 28th Jun 2011 18:52 in reply to "RE[4]: Democracy"
spiderman Member since:
2008-10-23

They can not be in violation of the law if they are not under the law.

Reply Parent Score: 2