Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 31st May 2012 21:25 UTC
Windows The Windows 8 release Preview has been released, so go out and get it, test it, and wax lyrically, or complain loudly. I'm installing it as we speak, so no word, thoughts, or impressions from me yet. Like it or hate it, at least have fun, folks.
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RE[5]: Waste of plastic.
by Nelson on Fri 1st Jun 2012 17:42 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Waste of plastic."
Member since:

Oh, well then... you must know what I'm talking about? So what's the problem? And by the way, the Windows 8 Consumer Preview and the Windows 8 Release Preview are *not* the same thing. One was released in February, which I tried and hated, and the other just recently, which I refuse to waste more time and plastic on. ;)

I think a post like the one you just made would've been favorable, as opposed to the small flamebait comment you left. ;) . I think a lot of your criticisms are fair, but I wouldn't even know that, had you not followed up with a more level headed comment.

And in response to BluenoseJake, yeah, I agree... "a few hours" is not much. I know... I wanted to play around more with it... but that was before I got it installed. When using it, I realized just how bad it was and just couldn't stand to use it very long.

I think if you would've spent a little while longer, you might've come away with a different opinion. From what I've seen, it takes people a fair amount of time to adjust, after which they find the Metro workflow pretty natural to use.

My experience with that wretched Start screen and the lack of a Start menu on the traditional desktop, combined with the pure shittiness of traditional keyboard-and-mouse control on a desktop setup in Metro

What specifically don't you like about it? I find I can find things across my system faster. I need to find a File, I can filter my search down, I need to find an article within an app, I can filter my search down to just that app. And so on and so fourth, I recently switched back to Windows 7 on one of my laptops and I sorely missed that feature.

plus Microsoft forcing you to create an online account to download these supposedly amazing Metro "apps" and pushing a cloud-type setup is... just something I refuse to f--k with.

Well, in the Control Panel app you can turn off all cloud syncing (All it does is sync apps and app settings to the Cloud in case you ever switch PCs it auto downloads them again.) This is all clearly spelled out in the permissions required by the specific apps, a huge step forward in privacy awareness compared to the status quo on Windows 7.

If it bothers you that much, why don't you just switch it off?

They're forcing us to create Windows "cloud" accounts just to install these supposedly amazing Metro "apps", while at the same time trying to force us out of the traditional desktop by making its use as inconvenient and unpleasant as possible.

This meme has taken on a life of its own. The traditional desktop has received a LOT of love in this release. Multimon set ups are much better than vanilla Win7, File/Copy dialogs have been redesigned to cater to power users, there is a new and awesome Task Manager with richer visualization and control over your system, the system uses less resources, etc. All things which are appreciated by Desktop AND Metro alike.

Also, starting today, Microsoft is listing traditional Win32 applications in the App Store (They provide descriptions, screenshots, and link to the application website where it can be downloaded), so it becomes a great repository of even traditional Windows Applications. I see this as a win for the Desktop too.

They're furthermore blocking ALL other operating systems out of any ARM-based Windows 8 machines using so-called "trusted computing" (I prefer the FSF's term for the acronym, it's more accurate...) unless they pay up like Red Hat/Fedora.

Let's be clear here: You were never going to run Linux on your ARM Tablet anyway. Thanks to hardware makers. It's not because of locked, secured, or trusted bootloaders ever. It's because of drivers.

Same reason I can't just throw vanilla Linux and have it work out of the box on my Android tablet without being severely limited. Drivers.

A lot of the important drivers (Graphics, Sound, WiFi, Camera, 3G, etc.) for tablets are proprietary binary blobs, essential black boxes of functionality.

Even then, the open source glue which binds the Android core to the binary blobs are written using Android specific code (especially with regards to power management, something which iirc, hasn't been put into Linux Kernel proper yet.)

So the likes of Qualcomm, Texas Instruments, etc. aren't about to just willy nilly hand out the source code to interface with major components of their SoC chips.

I think that's more restrictive and prohibitive than anything Microsoft has done.

They're also providing a traditional Windows/desktop version of Internet Explorer, while blocking other companies from releasing traditional desktop versions of their browsers.

This is a side effect, not a conscious effort to block out 3rd party browsers. Unsandboxed code does not execute under Windows ARM Tablet devices, period except for digitally signed Microsoft code.

This is likely due to performance and battery worries, and despite this, I'm not really fond of the solution.

I hope Microsoft is able to come to a sort of agreement with Chrome and Mozilla (Hell, they came to one with Adobe..)

They're removing the ability to develop traditional desktop applications from the basic version of, eh, Visual Basic.

If you're a student you can use DreamSpark, or one of the other dozen or so ways to get the Professional Suite of Visual Studio. Or you can use Mingw, that isn't magically going to go away. Or you can use Visual Studio 2010 Express which includes the tools needed. Or you can install Visual Studio 2012 Express, install the Windows SDK (Both of which you'd already likely have if you're serious about Windows Dev) and wire them up yourself to the VS2012 IDE.

But if you want to argue that I'm bitching about the company's practices instead of the OS, all I have to say is: Metro is absolute SHIT unless you're using a tablet or phone (ie. touchscreen), and Microsoft is making the Windows desktop as inconvenient as possible to use to force people away from it. The end result is a shitty operating system.

Why is it bad? I think that's a more productive discussion than simply saying "It's bad" . Is it bad because you haven't seen it used in any heavy duty applications yet? Do you feel the platform is immature? Does the fullscreen thing bother you?

All would be valid concerns, and all with some degree of hope for being fixed in the very near future.

This reminds me of when WinForms was in its hay day, and WPF came out. People claimed WPF was useless for LOB, and fast forward to today, and people are clinging to WPF LOB saying it's the best thing ever invented.

These things get fixed and refined with time.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[6]: Waste of plastic.
by malxau on Fri 1st Jun 2012 18:12 in reply to "RE[5]: Waste of plastic."
malxau Member since:

Let's be clear here: You were never going to run Linux on your ARM Tablet anyway...It's because of drivers...

In the distant past, Linux had terrible driver support, but because people could contribute their own drivers, that all changed. Now you can put it on almost any PC. Okay, free graphics acceleration etc support lags the binary blobs, but it's amazing how much works. What's going on with ARM tablets is _preventing_ people from developing functional drivers, and preventing the situation from improving. It turns "never" from a figure of speech ("not yet") to an actual, real, "never."

I could believe in 1995 people saying we'd "never" run Linux in the way we do today due to drivers. Things change, assuming we let them.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[7]: Waste of plastic.
by Nelson on Fri 1st Jun 2012 19:20 in reply to "RE[6]: Waste of plastic."
Nelson Member since:

"Let's be clear here: You were never going to run Linux on your ARM Tablet anyway...It's because of drivers...

What's going on with ARM tablets is _preventing_ people from developing functional drivers, and preventing the situation from improving. It turns "never" from a figure of speech ("not yet") to an actual, real, "never."

Not really, this secure boot restriction isn't even in place everywhere. There are ongoing efforts for example to reverse engineer some of Samsungs SoC stuff, but something is needed on a grander scale, across a broader range of hardware to reach a semblance of success.

My point being, and maybe I didn't make it well enough: Windows 8 on ARM being locked or unlocked isn't preventing anyone from installing Linux or whatever the day Windows 8 on ARM ships, because you really couldn't do it anyway.

I think anger and outrage is much better focused on Qualcomm and TI and Samsung who ARE in the position to affect great change in the industry. Hell, even Rasberry Pi's come with binary blobs, and they're the latest lovechild of FOSS.

We need to change the culture, and Windows 8 for ARM doesn't really do that, in either a positive or negative direction.

Reply Parent Score: 1