Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 23rd Jun 2012 17:05 UTC
Windows Two links to Marco Arment within a few days? Well, if you make good points: "Many Windows developers were upset that iOS development had to be done on a Mac, but it didn't hurt Apple: the most important developers for iOS apps were already using Macs. But the success of Windows 8 and Windows Phone in the consumer space requires many of those consumer-product developers, now entrenched in the Apple ecosystem, to care so much about Windows development that they want to use Windows to develop for it. How likely is that?" As usual a bit too Apple-centric (he implies - as explicit as possible while still being implicit - that only iOS developers can create great applications), but his point still stands. Judging by the abysmal quality of Microsoft's own Metro applications (Mail, Video, Music, People, IE10, etc.), even Microsoft doesn't know how to create great Metro applications.
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Nelson
Member since:
2005-11-29

They kept off WP7 drive for 6 months of this year already, because of Window8. That is not good for anyone.


Not exactly sure what you mean. Nokia+MS combined developer outreach efforts are unmatched in the industry.



Both Apple(lack of Objective-C devs) and Android(massive Java dev army) have proven that having a large army does not mean it will translate onto a new medium.


Apples to Oranges comparison.

iOS had true, organic growth because it was the only thing available for a long time. It was relatively uncontested before Android gained traction. So the ecosystem sprung up out of need.

The problem with Android is the developer experience is piss poor. The IDE is fucking shitty ass eclipse. The emulator until literally the other day was dog slow. The UI markup language is primitive, and then of course there's the fragmentation elephant in the room.

Those are real issues which hinder adoption. Developers have been doing WPF/Silverlight development on Windows for years before Windows Phone. It naturally translated. A lot of big names in Silverlight and WPF instantly pumped out supporting toolkits and articles and code.

WP7 was really seen as a ".NET nirvana" and a lot of .NET fanboys who I knew flocked to write apps for it.

Now, imagine the gold rush when Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 share the same underlying technology, but on a greater scope.

Windows 8 lets you use C# and XAML. C++ and XAML or Javascript and HTML5. That's a pretty broad market of devs who are hungry to write apps for the worlds most popular OS.

Reply Parent Score: 1

JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Not exactly sure what you mean. Nokia+MS combined developer outreach efforts are unmatched in the industry.

Consumer and operator adoption, not developer adoption. Nokia was trying to do most of it, but is failing due to the drop in relationships with operators.


No comment on the second part, mostly because it will become an unproductive inter-fanboy sputum.

Reply Parent Score: 2

EvilMonkeySlayer Member since:
2010-04-08

I've developed on Android, I've very little in the way of complaints.

Eclipse is an IDE that can be used with Android development but it isn't the only choice, it was simply the first to support Android development. Google do provide ADT tools and vaguely suggest Eclipse.

As to "shitty ass" Eclipse, this is purely all your personal preference. I personally like Eclipse and dislike IntelliJ. (in other words, if you don't like Eclipse then use IntelliJ)

In what way is the UI markup primitive? I've developed UI's without problem.

There is lots of bluster in your posts but little in the way of actual statements of fact.

The simple fact is Windows Phone has been an abject failure and it will continue to be a failure. Just because MS are trying to crowbar their mobile stuff in with Windows 8 will not suddenly make Windows Phone popular with people.



In my personal opinion and from the opinion every person I know who I've asked who has used it, windows 8 is from a user perspective an absolute dud. It has a UX that is a convoluted mess for the desktop. As nice as C# is, that doesn't detract from the horrendous.. absolutely horrendous desktop user experience.

I suspect W8 is going to get the user reputation as the next Vista. It'll do well on sales as it'll be bundled with OEMs on desktops as usual with MS. But from a bought off the shelf perspective it'll probably end up being skipped until MS fix the UX issues in W9.

As to windows 8 on tablets.. we'll see, but honestly. All the developer momentum is on IOS and Androids side right now. Just because something has a similar development environment doesn't mean they'll all magically become windows mobile developers overnight or even show any interest.

Honestly, look at the market. When it comes to it, the market sustains a couple of major platforms but that's it. As lovely as WP7 is there is next to no user interest in buying into a new platform and losing all their apps. Android and IOS are at the "good enough" stage for users never mind the fact that MS lacks the critical Google services or good equivalents.

Oh, just something else I saw you post about Direct3D on Windows Phone; Do you honestly think that only having Direct3D instead of OpenGL is a plus?

You do realise that pretty much all games on Android and IOS use OpenGL or alternatively something which abstracts (like unity) right? MS are massively hobbling the platform.

Look at it from this perspective of a game dev: "Well, I can write my game using OpenGL which covers Android and IOS making me lots of money with about 90%+ of the market, should I completely rewrite all the 3d handling code for WP which has a couple of percent and isn't likely to break even in dev costs. No."

As nice as developing for WP7/8 is in general, it's a failed platform. MS missed the bus, they were too late to the game. It's interesting to see them spending so much money on it but it's going the way of webos. A lovely platform that had no real user interest.


As to my Android complaints, yep the emulator is slow but it's usable and honestly.. you do realise you can plug a phone into the pc and use that for development right?

My only other complaint is I wish it wasn't limited to Java 1.6 rather than 1.7. (hey, I like being able to switch case on a string)


You really need to take a step back and stop being so obsessed with being so blindly pro-MS. Most platforms are great to develop for, don't be so single minded.

Reply Parent Score: 2

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

I've developed on Android, I've very little in the way of complaints.

Eclipse is an IDE that can be used with Android development but it isn't the only choice, it was simply the first to support Android development. Google do provide ADT tools and vaguely suggest Eclipse.

As to "shitty ass" Eclipse, this is purely all your personal preference. I personally like Eclipse and dislike IntelliJ. (in other words, if you don't like Eclipse then use IntelliJ)


Java IDEs go from bad to worse. Worst being Eclipse and mildly better is IntelliJ. Netbeans, I won't even go there.

At work we ended up going with MonoDevelop and MonoDroid after finding it dramatically more usable than ANY Java IDE. Holy. Fuck.


In what way is the UI markup primitive? I've developed UI's without problem.


It is not a 1:1 mapping to UI elements like XAML is. There's a lot more plumbing work using Android Layout XML compared to XAML.

The Android code is a mess of findViewbyId(..) everywhere. Who the fuck wants to maintain that?

Every XAML element is a .NET object. Its really quite powerful when you come to think of it. The marriage of the two concepts is seamless.

You can with XAML: Do animation, styling, and layout. With Android you can just do layout.

Plus I'd rather kill myself before I have to use the Android visual designer again.

With XAML I have a world class tool in Expression Blend.


There is lots of bluster in your posts but little in the way of actual statements of fact.

The simple fact is Windows Phone has been an abject failure and it will continue to be a failure. Just because MS are trying to crowbar their mobile stuff in with Windows 8 will not suddenly make Windows Phone popular with people.


The original XBox was also a "failure". Microsoft has the resources to stay in the game until they eventually dominate the field.

Windows Phone emerging as additional viable ecosystem is an inevitability.

Denying that is just shortsighted foolishness.


As to windows 8 on tablets.. we'll see, but honestly. All the developer momentum is on IOS and Androids side right now. Just because something has a similar development environment doesn't mean they'll all magically become windows mobile developers overnight or even show any interest.


There is no developer momentum on Android tablets. None. Zero. You'd be hard pressed to find even a FEW good Android tablet apps. Trust me, I've tried.

Also, a good chunk of Silverlight and .NET devs DID become Windows Phone developers. That's part of the reason they had 20,000 developers OVER NIGHT. That's why app momentum is HIGHER than Android. We're adding apps at a faster rate despite having an install base astronomically smaller. Why is that?

Because there is genuine revenue coming out of the Windows Phone marketplace. The Android market is a complete and utter failure. No one really gets money off of it. Its just a means to an end, growing the user base.


Honestly, look at the market. When it comes to it, the market sustains a couple of major platforms but that's it. As lovely as WP7 is there is next to no user interest in buying into a new platform and losing all their apps. Android and IOS are at the "good enough" stage for users never mind the fact that MS lacks the critical Google services or good equivalents.


Palm was once good enough. Windows Mobile was once good enough. Times change.


Oh, just something else I saw you post about Direct3D on Windows Phone; Do you honestly think that only having Direct3D instead of OpenGL is a plus?


Yes, honestly.


You do realise that pretty much all games on Android and IOS use OpenGL or alternatively something which abstracts (like unity) right? MS are massively hobbling the platform.


You realize almost all games on Windows use DirectX, right? You realize a great majority of middleware on Windows uses DirectX, right?

Like I said in another comment, the DirectX and OpenGL war was decided a half a decade ago. Around the time Vista launched. OpenGL lost that war.

You realize the DOMINANT GRAPHICS PLATFORM is DirectX? Right? I mean, you _ARE_ aware of that? Correct?


Look at it from this perspective of a game dev: "Well, I can write my game using OpenGL which covers Android and IOS making me lots of money with about 90%+ of the market, should I completely rewrite all the 3d handling code for WP which has a couple of percent and isn't likely to break even in dev costs. No."


Alternatively, here's how it'll play out:

"Hey, the Unreal Engine works on Windows 8."
"Hey it also works on Windows Phone 8 now too"
"Hey it also works on the Xbox 360"

Plus "Hey all of our fucking devs know DirectX, because its all anyone bothers to learn"

Seriously.


As nice as developing for WP7/8 is in general, it's a failed platform. MS missed the bus, they were too late to the game. It's interesting to see them spending so much money on it but it's going the way of webos. A lovely platform that had no real user interest.


Microsoft is no Palm. Windows Phone is too crucial for them to give up. Like I said, the Xbox was a loss leader for a LONG time before it became the success it is today. Don't be so naive as to write off Windows Phone.



As to my Android complaints, yep the emulator is slow but it's usable and honestly.. you do realise you can plug a phone into the pc and use that for development right?


Yes I do, but your costs rise right with that need. Now every developer needs to have a phone on hand in order to even do some development.

You realize on Windows Phone you can make money without even owning a phone, right? I know plenty of devs who just do emulator development and it works great for them.

The Windows Phone emulator really has no equal. With Windows Phone 8 it will run on Hyper-V. Yeah, good luck matching that.


You really need to take a step back and stop being so obsessed with being so blindly pro-MS. Most platforms are great to develop for, don't be so single minded.


It is exactly the fact that I spent a few months working with Android that I can be so vehemently opposed to everything it stands for. As a developer it is borderline insulting they expect us to use this stuff.

Reply Parent Score: 2

cdude Member since:
2008-09-21

> Nokia+MS combined developer outreach efforts are unmatched in the industry.

As we see on there unmatched "success" in the industry...

Reply Parent Score: 1