Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 18th Jul 2012 21:12 UTC
Windows The moment Microsoft announced it would lock other browsers out of being installed on Windows RT, we all knew regulatory bodies the world over were wringing their hands. Today, this has been confirmed: in the wake of an investigation into Microsoft not complying with the existing antitrust rulings regarding browser choice, the EU has also announced it's investigating Windows 8 x86 and Windows 8 RT (ARM).
Thread beginning with comment 527388
To view parent comment, click here.
To read all comments associated with this story, please click here.
RE[6]: Comment by Drumhellar
by Alfman on Thu 19th Jul 2012 20:47 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by Drumhellar"
Alfman
Member since:
2011-01-28

tomcat,


"Bullshit. Having x86 monopoly power doesn't give Microsoft any leverage to extend its dominance into the ARM market. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Microsoft can't strong-arm OEMs to tie x86 and ARM together. It can't force consumers to buy ARM machines."

Watch that temper! I think the post you responded to was right, actually. Microsoft isn't forcing consumers to buy ARM machines, but they've already used their power to negatively influence ARM UEFI specs to the detriment of competitors. And there's certainly room for microsoft to pressure ARM OEMS by using their status as a x86 monopoly.

I'm not asserting that they ARE doing it, but clearly they COULD. I am not privy to the backroom deals, but hypothetically MS might give additional x86 discounts to OEMs who bundle only Windows with their ARM products. This is certainly not out of the realm of possibilities and it's clearly within the realm of anti-trust.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[7]: Comment by Drumhellar
by tomcat on Thu 19th Jul 2012 21:20 in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by Drumhellar"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

Microsoft isn't forcing consumers to buy ARM machines, but they've already used their power to negatively influence ARM UEFI specs to the detriment of competitors.


Not at all. UEFI doesn't prevent OEMs from installing any other operating system. The OEM gets to decide what gets installed on a device (Linux, Windows, etc); and, by extension, the consumer gets to decide which device they want. The consumer is under no pressure to choose any particular device.

And there's certainly room for microsoft to pressure ARM OEMS by using their status as a x86 monopoly. I'm not asserting that they ARE doing it, but clearly they COULD. I am not privy to the backroom deals, but hypothetically MS might give additional x86 discounts to OEMs who bundle only Windows with their ARM products. This is certainly not out of the realm of possibilities and it's clearly within the realm of anti-trust.


You have a strange definition of "pressure". Offering OEMs a financial incentive to install Windows everywhere isn't banned by the consent decree. What is banned is (1) charging per-processor royalties even if the OEM doesn't install Windows, and (2) charging the OEM more than other OEMs if they don't install Windows (punitive terms). But Microsoft isn't doing either one of those things. OEMs are under no pressure to accept Microsoft's financial incentives; in fact, they're free to accept counter-proposals from any other OS vendor (Red Hat, Google, etc). That is the very essence of competition and, while Microsoft's size certainly gives them an advantage in offering lucrative financial terms, the court doesn't guarantee that competitors will be able to match all others. And nobody is asserting that Microsoft is "dumping" its software in the market at below-cost. So, quite frankly, you're wrong.

Edited 2012-07-19 21:22 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[8]: Comment by Drumhellar
by Alfman on Fri 20th Jul 2012 00:55 in reply to "RE[7]: Comment by Drumhellar"
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

"UEFI doesn't prevent OEMs from installing any other operating system."

Actually, that's precisely what it does when combined with microsoft's requirement that OEM ARM hardware must not boot anything but microsoft's own OS. I don't presume you care about any of this, but you should at least understand it. OEMS should be allowed to sell ARM devices that are advertised as both windows 8 and linux compatible but microsoft doesn't permit it.

"You have a strange definition of 'pressure'. Offering OEMs a financial incentive to install Windows everywhere isn't banned by the consent decree."

Call it what you will, but it is still a valid rebuttal to your assertion that microsoft's desktop monopoly in no way gives them leverage on new ARM devices.

Edited 2012-07-20 00:59 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: Comment by Drumhellar
by MollyC on Thu 19th Jul 2012 21:26 in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by Drumhellar"
MollyC Member since:
2006-07-04

Oh please.
The ARM UEFI specs aren't relevant.
Android tablets are still going to be produced by those OEMs. What do the UEFI specs of WindowsRT ARM devices have to do with Adroid ARM devices? Nothing.

And if you want to boot linux or BSD or Solaris or whatever random OS on an ARM device, but you can't do it on a Windows RT device because of UEFI, then just get an Android or ChromeOS ARM device and install your random OS on that.

WindowsRT ARM decices are complete solutions. They are complete integrated hardware/software devices. They are not meant to be able to run random OSes, just like the iPad isn't meant to run random OSes. Such devices run with the OS they come with, because the OS is part and parcel of the device as a complete integrated hardware/software solution. You don't like it? Then get different ARM device; they'll be plenty available for you to play with.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[8]: Comment by Drumhellar
by tomcat on Thu 19th Jul 2012 22:03 in reply to "RE[7]: Comment by Drumhellar"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

Oh please.
The ARM UEFI specs aren't relevant.
Android tablets are still going to be produced by those OEMs. What do the UEFI specs of WindowsRT ARM devices have to do with Adroid ARM devices? Nothing.


Linux advocates keep conflating this issue as an antitrust issue when, in fact, UEFI doesn't discriminate against other operating systems. Choice of the OS remains with the OEM. Not Microsoft.

And if you want to boot linux or BSD or Solaris or whatever random OS on an ARM device, but you can't do it on a Windows RT device because of UEFI, then just get an Android or ChromeOS ARM device and install your random OS on that.


It's the same perennial fetish for Linux fanboys: "l37'Z 7ry 7o hUr7 MiCrOSOf7 sOM3HoW 8y Ins74lLin' lINuX on 4 d3vIC3 7H47 No NORm4l hUM4N woUld 3V3R 4773mp7."

WindowsRT ARM decices are complete solutions. They are complete integrated hardware/software devices. They are not meant to be able to run random OSes, just like the iPad isn't meant to run random OSes. Such devices run with the OS they come with, because the OS is part and parcel of the device as a complete integrated hardware/software solution. You don't like it? Then get different ARM device; they'll be plenty available for you to play with.


Wait, doesn't everybody re-flash the firmware in their car engines?

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[8]: Comment by Drumhellar
by TechGeek on Fri 20th Jul 2012 02:48 in reply to "RE[7]: Comment by Drumhellar"
TechGeek Member since:
2006-01-14

Oh please.
The ARM UEFI specs aren't relevant.
Android tablets are still going to be produced by those OEMs. What do the UEFI specs of WindowsRT ARM devices have to do with Adroid ARM devices? Nothing.

And if you want to boot linux or BSD or Solaris or whatever random OS on an ARM device, but you can't do it on a Windows RT device because of UEFI, then just get an Android or ChromeOS ARM device and install your random OS on that.

WindowsRT ARM decices are complete solutions. They are complete integrated hardware/software devices. They are not meant to be able to run random OSes, just like the iPad isn't meant to run random OSes. Such devices run with the OS they come with, because the OS is part and parcel of the device as a complete integrated hardware/software solution. You don't like it? Then get different ARM device; they'll be plenty available for you to play with.


With all due respect, they are not complete devices. Apple sells a complete device. They engineer it, they build it, they load iOS on it. They control everything from the silicon up. Windows RT device are different. They are not designed nor built by Microsoft. Microsoft, other than the uEFI part, does not dictate what hardware goes into the device. Nor does Microsoft control pricing or distribution of the devices. No, Windows RT devices are more like common PC devices. And since its the same OEMs, this represents a problem. We know for a fact that the margins for PC makers is razor thin. As such, Microsoft has the power, through pricing of both WIndows RT and Windows 8, to greatly affect the livelihood of the OEMs. That is why there needs to be oversight.

Reply Parent Score: 3