Linked by Howard Fosdick on Thu 6th Dec 2012 05:26 UTC
OSNews, Generic OSes With computers now shipping with UEFI Secure Boot enabled, users of any OS other than Windows 8 will want to know how to circumvent it. Jesse Smith of DistroWatch tells how he did it here. The Linux Foundation describes its approach here. If you want to boot an OS other than Windows 8, you'll want to figure this out before you buy that new computer.
Thread beginning with comment 544374
To read all comments associated with this story, please click here.
Comment by marcp
by marcp on Thu 6th Dec 2012 10:45 UTC
marcp
Member since:
2007-11-23

Just don't buy computers that don't work with your OS of choice or wasn't even designed to work with it.
Apple users buy Apple hardware. Microsoft wants you to buy Microsoft hardware. If you're using GNU/Linux or *BSD, Haiku OS, just buy hardware certified for GNU/Linux. That way you will:
- show your disagreement to the practices of MS
- save quite some cash
- get perfect hardware support, things will just run
- invest in [your own/others'] freedom, openness and independence [open hardware is getting more popular]
- help to grow this market
- give yourself future option [you'll have more FLOSS-compatible hardware vendors as a result of your choice]

Of course, you can also do nothing, buy random crap and keep whining it doesn't support your OS. But you are the one who made that choice. Be wise, vote with your wallet.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Comment by marcp
by UglyKidBill on Thu 6th Dec 2012 10:56 in reply to "Comment by marcp"
UglyKidBill Member since:
2005-07-27

While I agree with idea, you should also realise that in some (many?) markets importing costs and brand availability severely limit consumer's options.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE: Comment by marcp
by jessesmith on Thu 6th Dec 2012 13:55 in reply to "Comment by marcp"
jessesmith Member since:
2010-03-11

I looked at a bunch of Linux cert and Linux pre-installed options recently. They were all quite a bit more expensive than buying a computer with Windows and wiping the drive. Ranging in price difference from 50% up to 300%. With the price factor so much against Linux it's much more appealing for most consumers to simply pay the MS tax.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by marcp
by marcp on Thu 6th Dec 2012 20:18 in reply to "RE: Comment by marcp"
marcp Member since:
2007-11-23

As you've already mentioned, regular user pays "MS tax" [or Apple tax] anyway. Isn't it better to pay this tax as an extra cost of the hardware? OS is free [as in cost] anyway, so you don't really loose that much. In fact, you gain freedom, independence, etc.
I think it's worth the game. Besides: we don't buy computers THAT often. And we don't HAVE TO buy them that often - FLOSS doesn't make you upgrade everytime there's new version of some software package.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Comment by marcp
by Doc Pain on Thu 6th Dec 2012 14:43 in reply to "Comment by marcp"
Doc Pain Member since:
2006-10-08

Just don't buy computers that don't work with your OS of choice or wasn't even designed to work with it.
Apple users buy Apple hardware. Microsoft wants you to buy Microsoft hardware. If you're using GNU/Linux or *BSD, Haiku OS, just buy hardware certified for GNU/Linux.


There will be a problem: If you divide the hardware into Apple / MICROS~1 / GNU/Linux -- three parts! -- you do not take into account that there are several other operating systems that would usually run on general purpose computers. Even though you could argue that "certified for GNU/Linux" means that the hardware will be compatible with BSD, Haiku or other "niche operating systems", they are not explicitely mentioned. Certification might also add costs that those who provide (let's say) an educational OS for free cannot bear.

So if there is a 3 part division, why not use this: Apple / MICROS~1 / standard, where "standard" means that the hardware will not be limited in any way, so the chances that a non-Apple and non-"Windows" OS will be able to utilize it properly will be high.

Just imagine the trouble that prior to purchasing a new computer, be it a desktop, laptop, server, whatever, you'd have to research compatibility to a specific operating system, maybe even one of its distributions or flavours, or version number. That simply looks overcomplicated.

Of course in a consumer-oriented marketing and sales approach, that would look reasonable. People value their time, and if a somehow crippled "Windows" PC is sold cheaper (and free of initial trouble) than "competitors" like one that could possibly run Linux, then what will the customer deceide for? Especially when he doesn't know and doesn't care?

On the other hand, there might be a market developing for the growing amount of Linux users. If more people insist on being able to run the OS they choose on the hardware they're willing to pay money for, maybe manufacuters will also offer non-crippled computers (means: normal general purpose computers without artificial limitations) to obtain money from that specific market segment (with the potential of growth).

That way you will:
- show your disagreement to the practices of MS


Sadly, that means it's not possible to simply ignore them...

- save quite some cash


Except when there's subvention from MICROS~1 to make the "Windows" versions cheaper than the non-"Windows" version, or they charge some kind of licensing fees or royalties for patent use of the non-"Windows" (as they have done in the smartphone market, making more money through the competitor's sales than their own ones).

- get perfect hardware support, things will just run


This is as it should always be. Standard compliance is an important step. Free specs for devices is even better. But of course every manufacturer is free to not publish his secrets. It's also okay when one says: "No, I don't want you to use this printer with Linux."

- invest in [your own/others'] freedom, openness and independence [open hardware is getting more popular]
[...]
- give yourself future option [you'll have more FLOSS-compatible hardware vendors as a result of your choice]


This is very important, but won't be noticed by the masses who don't care.

Of course, you can also do nothing, buy random crap and keep whining it doesn't support your OS. But you are the one who made that choice. Be wise, vote with your wallet.


In a free market, with participants thinking prior to buying, that would be the default. With enough momentum, things would change. But I sadly don't see this happening. Hopefully I'm wrong.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by marcp
by marcp on Thu 6th Dec 2012 20:35 in reply to "RE: Comment by marcp"
marcp Member since:
2007-11-23

I'm perfectly aware of the existence of other operating systems. I use many operating systems, usually OpenBSD, GNU/Linux distros and Haiku OS.
But yes - you're right. I did this assumption about the "markets", because - usually - FLOSS operating systems have that option to share drivers. That makes just one "market" for all of them - just by the nature of FLOSS. Of course, I won't mention problems with communication between GPL and BSD guys when it comes to drivers. That's a whole different story and I think It can be sorted out.

When I say "certified" I mean: "checked to run with FLOSS". It means that such hardware would just work with FLOSS operating systems. The actual "certification" is not really needed. FLOSS is not [only] about "markets" anyway. It's about freedom and independence. We don't need costly certifications and other things that come from the corporate world. We only need working example of hardware that runs FLOSS operating system [like those that some companies sell in bundles - HW + GNU/Linux or OpenSolaris - as I've never seen anything with *BSD on board - yet! <I'm not talking about Soekris, OpenBSD, routers>].
It's "open source" that's more dependant from the "market" model. Libre software doesn't share that dependance [again: not talking about Linux kernel development being sponsored in some parts by commercial companies].

I agree with you that "standardized" hardware would be the best thinh to get, but we live in kinda different reality, when there are even more an more closed ecosystems around us, everyday. Why not use that <flawed> model to create 100%-FLOSS compatible hardware [and thus - STANDARDS COMPLIANT!] rather then fight with some closed-minded corporate folks and "markets"? That's just WAY more efficient and safe [for the future]. Let those FLOSS-compatible hardware makers arise. Vote for such hardware, show your interrest in such solutions, and there will be more of it. Use the "free market" to your own purpose - standarization.

As a side note - don't think about the price alone. Think about other things:
- you don't buy your hardware that often
- you are not forced to upgrade your hardware that often when you use FLOSS operating system
- you can pay few extra bucks to get it all, can't you? I do it and I'd recommend it to everyone. Our freedom is worth it.

You seem to be pessimist on it all, but just think about it: is there any other way to make the things we are talking about a reality? we need to act and vote with our wallets right now. Not in the future. Don't look at others. Just do what's right and explain it to people. Some people will get it, and will explain it to other people, and so it goes.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment by marcp
by zima on Tue 11th Dec 2012 01:06 in reply to "RE: Comment by marcp"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

>Of course, you can also do nothing, buy random crap and keep whining it doesn't support your OS. But you are the one who made that choice. Be wise, vote with your wallet.

In a free market, with participants thinking prior to buying, that would be the default. With enough momentum, things would change. But I sadly don't see this happening. Hopefully I'm wrong.

Oh it's worse - Linux fans keep whining about having to buy Windows ...even when they really do have plenty of choice with "no-OS" or even "Linux" machines ( http://www.osnews.com/permalink?544628 ) from big vendors.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Comment by marcp
by mistersoft on Sat 8th Dec 2012 04:45 in reply to "Comment by marcp"
mistersoft Member since:
2011-01-05

no personal offence but that argument's Bull really

-As has been already pointed out, not only is the market for os-free or alternative-os-certified machines relatively small to begin with, but it's artificially further deflated by the current de facto 'choice' (esp with laptops) alt-os lovers make which is to buy windows, sometimes os x machines wipe the pre-installed os and go from there.

It's disingenous to suggest the alternative and preferable scenario you suggest of such purchasers holding out for certified or even specifically designed linux bsd haiku whatever- products. Because we all know they probably wouldn't never even have 'good android'/google/microsoft, let alone Apple level of fit and finish. and that's just the truth.

One day -if there's anything fair and truthful to our competition laws, there needs to be some legislative forced opening up of hardware or hardware-software lock-ins, from secure boot setups be they UEFI or locked mobile boot-loaders to the walled garden APP-o-spheres currently in vogue.

So everyone and anyone has the chance to 'run what they want' on a device that they 'own'. We might 'license' the software but we 'own' the hardware (even if we don't have right to reimplement it of course)

That's that. That's the fair end game - which is possible if people collectively give a shit.

Forced provision of open boot loaders is more likely than people really effecting change by 'voting with their wallets' - that never works! it's like boycotts, if a reasonable % don't care, which they never will, it's not a boycott. If people have some low rent but extant options for running their alt-os of choice, well they'll probably plump for that rather than the X million linux users in the world all coming together in a huge crowd-funding campaign and literally BUYING the rights to one of those we'll-never-release-the-source-code-from-our-cold-dead-grasp and putting together a really good /decent totally open source laptop and tablet pair ; would be ace, but it's dreaming.

edit - spelling

Edited 2012-12-08 04:47 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by marcp
by marcp on Sun 9th Dec 2012 10:39 in reply to "RE: Comment by marcp"
marcp Member since:
2007-11-23

I beg to differ.

-As has been already pointed out, not only is the market for os-free or alternative-os-certified machines relatively small to begin with, but it's artificially further deflated by the current de facto 'choice' (esp with laptops) alt-os lovers make which is to buy windows, sometimes os x machines wipe the pre-installed os and go from there.

You're not going behind diagnosing the actual state. I'm going beyond that with suggestion on how this problem can be fixed. Besides: you're trying to say that this "market" for FLOSS computers will never succeed, because it's ... small. You can't really try to explain one thing with itself. The market is small, because people believe in the things you write about. They don't give a damn, because they don't understand and they don't understand, because they don't give a damn. They don't have the knowledge, so they can't really vote with their wallets. They just accept the things they are. Not very wise.

It's disingenous to suggest the alternative and preferable scenario you suggest of such purchasers holding out for certified or even specifically designed linux bsd haiku whatever- products. Because we all know they probably wouldn't never even have 'good android'/google/microsoft, let alone Apple level of fit and finish. and that's just the truth.

And when did you last check on that kind of hardware? System76, anyone? Just take a look around and you'll find plenty of good hardware. In fact, most of the Windows-related hardware is cheap-ass crap that isn't even worth its price, and Apple hardware is just overpriced hardware to make your ego feel more "premium".

Reply Parent Score: 2