Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 15th Dec 2012 19:11 UTC
In the News "Peers and scientists including Professor Stephen Hawking are once again pushing for an official pardon for codebreaker Alan Turing. Turing's death from cyanide poisoning in 1954 was ruled a suicide, coming after his conviction for gross indecency at a time when homosexuality was illegal." The fact that he still hasn't been pardoned is an utter disgrace.
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RE[5]: No
by Alfman on Sun 16th Dec 2012 08:52 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: No"
Alfman
Member since:
2011-01-28

kwan_e,

"I didn't miss the point. You and her and the others miss the wider point. The wider point being is that this symbolic gesture somehow steals the attention from other people who suffered. There is nothing about that attitude that makes sense."

I think everyone here gets everyone else's point.

The thing is, when one individual is given recognition above others, it *does* steal attention from others. But it still might be for the greater good if people can rally around specific icons to draw greater overall awareness. It's easier to make an emotional connection to specific individuals than a group.

I realise what your saying is intended to give respect the whole group, but if a major event happened and a celebrity happened to have been involved, would you be annoyed that the media inevitably focuses on the celebrity over everyone else? Because that's kind of how things play out in the world.

I think he should be pardoned symbolically, but I'm also well aware that the main motivation for pardoning him individually is his fame, most persecutions will not be high profile enough to garner much attention and may even be forgotten as individuals.

Edited 2012-12-16 08:57 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[6]: No
by kwan_e on Sun 16th Dec 2012 08:59 in reply to "RE[5]: No"
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

I realise what your saying is intended to give respect the whole group, but if a major event happened and a celebrity happened to have been involved, would you be annoyed that the media inevitably focuses on the celebrity over everyone else? Because that's kind of how things play out in the world.

I think he should be pardoned symbolically, but I'm also well aware that the main motivation for pardoning him individually is his fame, most similar cases will not be high profile enough to garner much attention and may even be forgotten.


Yes, that's why we should use this as an opportunity to get attention to those who suffered like Turing. The way to go is not to chuck a sour-grapes tantrum and deny this motion because we don't get what we want - which is what several people have actually said.

The main motivation is what the people make it, not just the spokesperson's motivation. But Alan Turing is still a good figurehead because of his achievements.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[7]: No
by Alfman on Sun 16th Dec 2012 09:33 in reply to "RE[6]: No"
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

kwan_e,

I hear that loud and clear, but I'm not even sure I'm in favour of using figureheads to drive a movement in principal. People should believe in a cause because it is important in and of itself, not because a VIP is involved.


I know that's an overly cynical view for something with innocent intentions, but I honestly ask myself if Turing's fame is a driver for this movement rather than the persecution itself.

These are just my thoughts, I'm not claiming it's the right way to see things.

Edit: It doesn't affect my opinion that he ought to be pardoned in one way or another.

Edited 2012-12-16 09:49 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: No
by WereCatf on Sun 16th Dec 2012 09:45 in reply to "RE[6]: No"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

Yes, that's why we should use this as an opportunity to get attention to those who suffered like Turing. The way to go is not to chuck a sour-grapes tantrum and deny this motion because we don't get what we want - which is what several people have actually said.


You're acting like this was some sort of a larger political movement that needs a figure head. I just do not see it that way: this move does not directly benefit or help anyone as the law doesn't exist any longer, the effects would be secondary, and pardoning Turing or pardoning them all doesn't change the fact that it would still all be symbolic. However, a request for pardoning them ALL sends a completely different kind of a symbolic message than requesting for the pardoning of a single person, and that is the whole point of why I am against this: make a big ruckus about it, get it on the papers, show all the everyday heroes and their lives destroyed, and make the general populace actually get an emotional connection instead of just focusing on a single person whom they don't know and whom they can't relate to -- if you want to send a symbolic message which one method would actually reach the audience better? The point with my "all or nothing" comment is that it doesn't matter if the government itself makes some sort of a public announcement about this, it's the fight itself that should be the focus; by making the fight about everyone, by making it about these everyday heroes and your average man you're giving people a strong connection to relate to and failing or not failing at getting a public apology from the government will still leave a much longer-lasting impression in their minds, hopefully provoking some deeper insight into their motivations.

I assume you're still going to disagree and that's fine, but atleast I have explained my view on this and I am not changing my stance.

The main motivation is what the people make it, not just the spokesperson's motivation. But Alan Turing is still a good figurehead because of his achievements.


The motivation is about sending a message, apparently, but the message itself is the part I don't agree with.

Reply Parent Score: 3