Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 12th Apr 2013 22:14 UTC
PDAs, Cellphones, Wireless As I'm working on a long and detailed article about Psion and Symbian (similar in setup to the Palm article), I need to dive into a number of devices that I have never personally owned. One of the devices that was atop my list was what I think is the ultimate Symbian device: the Nokia E7 - the last of the long line of Communicators, released in early 2011. While more detailed information about it will find its way into the Psion/Symbian article, I figured it'd be interesting to give a few first impressions.
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RE[3]: Comment by cdude
by henderson101 on Mon 15th Apr 2013 09:59 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by cdude"
henderson101
Member since:
2006-05-30

I wanted what it appears most of the investors wanted: Add Android as a middle tier between low-end Symbian and high-end Meego, with a Qt runtime as a Nokia Android value add (so all 3 phones could run Qt apps and reward all those Qt developers who stubbornly stuck with Nokia).


Sorry, Meego was already lost to most Maemo developers, because Maemo was based on GTK+. We were promised that our GTK+ based API would stay and all would be well, but they we were sold out to Qt. So, really, I'm not sure who all the supposed Meego Qt supporters were?! Nokia successfully mismanaged Maemo/Meego in tot he ground a long, long time before Elop arrived.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[4]: Comment by cdude
by ricegf on Mon 15th Apr 2013 10:52 in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by cdude"
ricegf Member since:
2007-04-25

Agree to the extent that the GTK+ API changed enough between the 770, 800, and 900 releases to require porting apps, resulting in an actual shrinking repository going forward. Frustrating and unnecessary from both developer and user perspectives.

But my sense from the mailing lists was that the move to Qt had significant acceptance in the developer community, since it was a far superior API and promised the stability that Maemo's API had lacked. If you were more deeply involved in the community, though, you may be seeing a quiet revolt that wasn't visible on the lists.

If so, then the move to WP 7 just exacerbated the pain - a totally new kernel and toolset, then another huge disconnect getting to WP 8 with yet another new kernel and API changes and abandoned devices. Out of the frying pan, into the fire.

In any event, my point was that the market clearly expected a strategy that openly wooed Symbian users with a clear upgrade path to a new Android-based line, rather than Mr. Elop's approach of effectively killing Symbian and the highly regarded Qt almost a year before the first of the new phones could ship. He who didn't know or care about the history of Osborne has now repeated it. *sigh*

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[5]: Comment by cdude
by henderson101 on Mon 15th Apr 2013 15:14 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by cdude"
henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

Agree to the extent that the GTK+ API changed enough between the 770, 800, and 900 releases to require porting apps, resulting in an actual shrinking repository going forward. Frustrating and unnecessary from both developer and user perspectives.


Exactly. They lost a significant amount of developers at each revision... for no particularly good reason. The API/ABI was never very stable between any major release.

But my sense from the mailing lists was that the move to Qt had significant acceptance in the developer community, since it was a far superior API and promised the stability that Maemo's API had lacked.


I think that was possibly the minority of developers still invested in the system. They lost a heck of a lot of us with the N810/N900 transition when they dropped support for the N810. This was for the same unexplainable reasons. We realise now, it was part of the Nokia culture, but at the time it just seemed suicidal.

If so, then the move to WP 7 just exacerbated the pain - a totally new kernel and toolset, then another huge disconnect getting to WP 8 with yet another new kernel and API changes and abandoned devices. Out of the frying pan, into the fire.


Except, the tools weren't tied to Linux, which was always a sticking point for previous incarnations of Maemo. I skipped Qt, but I assume they still had a convoluted build system, having looked at how Sailfish works.

....rather than Mr. Elop's approach of effectively killing Symbian and the highly regarded Qt almost a year before the first of the new phones could ship. He who didn't know or care about the history of Osborne has now repeated it. *sigh*


I think he saved an awful lot of money doing that though. In that time, they weren't burning through capital trying to support dead platforms. At least that much made a little sense. The timing, I agree, was bad.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[4]: Comment by cdude
by bassbeast on Mon 15th Apr 2013 15:12 in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by cdude"
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

Thanks because THAT is the kind of stuff I was talking about! When Elop got there the place was already a mess, MANY bridges had been burned, and the OSes they had just couldn't compete with what was out and the time, certainly not without the third party devs which as you pointed out found out they were wasting their time and moved on.

Now did I think WinPhone was a good call? Nope, if it were my call I'd have tried to get my hands on WebOS but for all we know he may have made a call to HP and been told to get lost. And for those saying "Android!" how many companies are making money on Android now? Samsung and...yeah pretty much Samsung, even HTC has posted some losses, why?

Because Android has a fatal flaw in that anybody can put out android devices so you WILL have a race to the bottom,there is no way for Google to avoid it. Look at how many unauthorized Android devices you can find now at every B&M on the planet, most customers won't know the difference between Nokia hardware and that cheapo Chinese crud hardware, all they will know is the Nokia is 3 times the price of the unit next to it so they'll pass on the Nokia.

If you want to blame somebody? The answer is simple, its the same answer as HP, MSFT, and AMD, its the board that let the mess go on for far too long before trying to do something about it. Like it or not Nokia was in VERY bad shape by the time they brought Elop in, they let the whole Meego/Maemo thing go on too long and as you pointed out run off the Maemo devs while they were at it, they let Symbian get way behind the times, they simply didn't manage the business well and when you are talking about a business as cutthroat as mobile just slacking off like that is deadly.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by cdude
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 15th Apr 2013 15:24 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by cdude"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Race to the bottom? And that's different from Nokia at the moment, how, exactly? A few thoughts.

1) Nokia is putting out ever cheaper Windows Phone devices. They ARE racing to the bottom - without much success.

2) Flagship Android devices are expensive, and do not take part in this race to the bottom at all.

3) Nokia is trying to peddle an OS few people seem to want. Having higher prices - as you seem to think is a good idea - is idiotic in this scenario.

Had Nokia put stock Android on their Lumias, they'd be king right now. Former Symbian users in traditional Nokia hinterlands aren't flocking to Windows Phone - they're all flocking to Android. The strong Nokia name with the popular Android operating system would have been THE route to success.

And they should have seen this coming the moment Android first gained traction. They did not, and now they're doomed. The smartphone branch will eventually be sold - most likely to Microsoft. Mark my words. I give it five years, tops.

Reply Parent Score: 1