Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 26th May 2014 21:24 UTC
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It's hard to explain to regular people how much technology barely works, how much the infrastructure of our lives is held together by the IT equivalent of baling wire.

Computers, and computing, are broken.

Software sucks. It really, really sucks. I have yet to meet a piece of software that didn't make me go "" several times per hour - whether it be a videogame, a browser, or an operating system.

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Member since:

I almost find this mentality interesting.

Can you name me another profession where those in it profess this level of freedom?

Doctors? No.
Lawyers? No.
Accountants? No.
Trades people? No.
Teachers? No.
Nurses? No.
Civil Engineers? No.
Electricians? No.

Do you really think people is software so special that they should ignore the lessons learned by every other profession in history? It is rather amazingly arrogant for most software engineers to think so, all the while always complaining about everything (treated like crap by business people, poor quality, poor working conditions...)

I hate to break it to you, but most people aren't that special. Power and organization matter a heck of a lot more in influencing the world.

Not to mention, we don't live in some free world.
This has massive issues that you can't simply say that freedom will result in more innovation. Good people can and will choose other careers streams which offer a better life with higher professional standards. Without long term careers in the field, it is possible to face a lack of deep innovation as few would want to invest their time. Social web app innovation is good, but it doesn't need years of deep study.

Reply Parent Score: 3

jockm Member since:

One point: as far as I recall all of those professions you mentioned were around a long time before they learned the right way to formalize. For centuries (or in some cases millennia) people learned by getting apprenticed, or by reading the classic works and then putting up their shingle.

Software engineering is still in it's infancy, we have barely learned to stand compared to those other fields. It isn't clear we know the right way to formalize yet. I don't know that we could come up with an equivalent of the bar exam that was worth anything. Lord knows the MSCEs are no predictor.

We call ourselves engineers, but that was just a term to distinguish ourselves from the older more clerical definition of programmer. We are really more like craftsmen — sitting at the intersection of art and engineering.

I am not saying we shouldn't formalize, but I am saying that it is going to be a lot harder than most people here seem to be asserting.

Reply Parent Score: 3

Yamin Member since:

On that I agree.
How to professionalize and what to standardize is very complex.

My post was more responding to the parent who was against it in favor of a perceived value in freedom and cooperation.

Reply Parent Score: 2

hackus Member since:

"I hate to break it to you, but most people aren't that special. Power and organization matter a heck of a lot more in influencing the world."

You don't like to read history books do you?

I stood and watched in disbelief at the height of the SCO trial as McBride stood in front of a jury and said it is impossible for LINUX to have come about without a PhD and the resources of a institution, therefore LINUX was copied.

Digging through more ancient history we have exhibit B, a one George Boole.

Who was told by the organizations, professional at the time at key Universities to go back to digging ditches because his idea of dual state logic was HOGWASH.

Not too mention Mr. Boole didn't have the cash to buy his way into the ELITE CLUB called a University education.

I hope I do not have to point out, how important Boole's work is.

Exhibit C a one named Albert Einstein. Sent home by the organized institutions of professional "learning" at the time that he was unteachable. Who spent his "unorganized" time as a patent clerk, working on theories that have changed our world forever.

Exhibit D a one named Nikola Tesla, who after spending 1 year at a "organized professional organized University" couldn't stand it anymore and left forever declaring he would never return and built the entire foundations of energy science by his little ole self.

AC current which ironically allows you to type ...


"I hate to break it to you, but most people aren't that special. Power and organization matter a heck of a lot more in influencing the world."

All of the advances that for what I would call the modern age came from people who rejected professionalism or "organization" as you call it.

This fundamental rejection by these and many more people are what drives the huge advances in technology and REAL science, not the crap they do now at Universities for grant money roller coaster rides.

The individual built our modern age. Professional organizations or Universities did everything the could against these individuals to kill it.

Edited 2014-05-29 01:51 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1