Linked by Andrew Youll on Tue 19th Jul 2005 15:57 UTC
Original OSNews Interviews PC-BSD 0.7.8 has been released and I also recently conducted an interview with PC-BSD Project leader Kris Moore.
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RE[4]: Looks awesome
by JLF65 on Tue 19th Jul 2005 20:54 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Looks awesome"
JLF65
Member since:
2005-07-06

Dozens is actually an understatement. And this isn't about bug fixes. It's about security.

"apt-cache rdepends zlib1g" returns 1,848 packages that use zlib. Imagine if a user just had 10% of these packages installed. That's 184 pieces of software or libraries that would have to be ugpraded. And 184 of those must be upgraded to plug the security hole.


First, security doesn't affect most programs. Who cares if zlib has a hole if you're only using it with a SNES emulator? That's one less copy of zlib.

Second, you're still over-estimating it. I doubt the average person would have even 1% of those programs installed, so that's less than 18 packages, of which, most won't be a security issue as they don't connect to the net.

Third, if I DID have that many copies to replace, I'd write a bash script which found and replaced all the copies. It would take about three lines and two minutes. I would be surprised if you checked the PC-BSD forum and there wasn't already such a script available.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill to justify your position. It just doesn't hold any water.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[5]: Looks awesome
by jziegler on Tue 19th Jul 2005 21:38 in reply to "RE[4]: Looks awesome"
jziegler Member since:
2005-07-14

Surely you are joking. Using "I'd write a bash script" to defend a feature, which tries to be a usability feature.

On one hand, you claim it is a good feature for the regular user, for whom it is too hard to do (click synaptic, type string, select, click install), on the other you expect him to go to forums, copy/download a bash script and run it?

Get your arguments and expectations of a "regular user" straight.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[5]: Looks awesome
by on Tue 19th Jul 2005 23:07 in reply to "RE[4]: Looks awesome"
Member since:

<cite>Third, if I DID have that many copies to replace, I'd write a bash script which found and replaced all the copies.</cite>

Right. As I said, this is an easily solvable problem, but I propose metadata to keep track. This can installed atop of what they have.
Sure, there's bloat. But that's the only work around to avoid cross-dependencies. We know, from experience, that the traditional approaches get you:
1) Either source compile.
2) Or, use the smart BSD approach: ports.
3) Package-management hell. Worst-case scenario: Debian. Package explosion (1000->8000->14000) breaks down release management, because they don't have /any/ automation.
With 2 and 3, either way, you're looking at forcing a 6 months overall release-cycle: Ubuntu, OpenBSD, just about everybody who's serious (except Debian :-) Sorry).
Can't escape from library dependencies in 1, either.

It's an undeniable fact that software installation under WIndows is easier. In fact, that concept started with NeXT, not Windows, so be cool everybody!

Besides, people are overlooking the fact that a package is installed under a user directory with permissions. This isn't Windows, so it's safer still. The argument holds no water, really.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[6]: Looks awesome
by jziegler on Wed 20th Jul 2005 07:44 in reply to "RE[5]: Looks awesome"
jziegler Member since:
2005-07-14

It's an undeniable fact that software installation under WIndows is easier. In fact, that concept started with NeXT, not Windows, so be cool everybody!

any other arguments than emotional? i already mentioned the problem with upgrading packages. it has an O(n) time cost, compared to O(1) for a system with package management.

it is similar with installing the first time. compare:
* download firefoxe bundle
* drag&drop it somewhere
* download thunderbird bundle
* drag&drop it somewhere
* download gaim bundle
* drag&drop it somewhere
* download gvim bundle
* drag&drop it somewhere
* download gimp bundle
* drag&drop it somewhere
* download openoffice.org
...

to:
* start package manager
* select gimp, gvim, gaim, thunderbird, firefox, OO.o
* click install

yes. the second option requires a central repository and the user learning a different way to do things.

however, i would not equate "don't know something" to "something is more difficult".

Reply Parent Score: 1