Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 26th Nov 2005 17:02 UTC, submitted by Megatux
Gnome "I followed the debate about a successor for the C/C++ combination as the primary language for developing the GNOME core desktop platform very closely last month. There has been discussion about a number of options. What I would like to do on this page is give an overview how a probably less well-known language might be a viable compromise as a C/C++ successor. This language is called Eiffel and exists for over a decade. Eiffel takes the principle of Object-Oriented programming to its extremes and, as a consequence, is a very easy to learn language."
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My 2 cents on this long thread
by on Sun 27th Nov 2005 05:46 UTC

Member since:

I wouldn't like to read a thread such as this every day, but it was some time since I read the last...

First, some people think that somehow "open source developers" are any different from "commercial developers" or "egotistical companies". I mean, each one of us has his own interests. The commercial developers sound eager to be able to develop applications using the open source developers tools, which need to improve. Is that right?

Second, I disagree with most of you when you think you need a system level language like Java, C++, Eifell (?), C#, to develop your programs. Because second on your list is powerful tools on top of your "preferred" languages which make it easier to read and write the generated code. I believe application developers need a higher abstraction which is compatible and consistent with other tools, so they can reuse code and knowledge more easily, without depending on tools support.

I believe the holy grail is an API for application development on top of the basic APIs. Both need to be accessible and easy to extend and modify, so you can better adapt them to your needs if by default they aren't enough.

If my theory is correct, and I can make enough money for me, maybe in the future I will have the time to release my tools which support Linux and Windows, Web (CGI, Wiki, a Web Framework) and Desktop (Fox, wxWidgets, GTK+, several databases, and will support several report outputs (like HTML, PDF, TXT).

I believe in components above all! :-)

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RE: My 2 cents on this long thread
by on Sun 27th Nov 2005 06:10 in reply to "My 2 cents on this long thread"
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First, some people think that somehow "open source developers" are any different from "commercial developers"

Yeah. They are. You wanna know how? If I hire you I say: this project uses LispWorks, or FranzLisp, or EiffelStudio, or Cincom Smalltalk. Or for that matter, Eclipse. Whatever.

But I get to order you to do it. I don't get to listen to stupid arguments about C or C++, and you don't get to write stupid bugs because you left a dangling pointer because you have a headache. You also don't get to be artistic. Or only so far as an engineering discipline allows. And I couldn't possibly care about your "woooh, Python/Ruby/C rocks" attitude.

You play by the rules, and the standards are set higher. You don't like it, I hire another. I got a product to deliver, and I ain't got a gargantual marketing machine or a monopoly behind me to push shit to people and they'll keep buying next year. I got big clients for serious appications. I might be developing software for the aerospace, medical industry, or for banking institutions. Software you won't read about on Slashdot or here.

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Member since:

You can hire open source developers and if you pay enough money you can be a monkey and they won't care.

You know what? Do you know about the limits of Eiffel? Well, if you can write bug-free Eiffel code maybe you should declare that as a feature of your softwares, and if a customer finds bugs in your programs, allow them to get their money back.

Your attitude is to pretend that the differences of Eiffel will make if bullet proof or something. Silver bullets don't exist. Hard work is the only way to advance in removing the montain, one chunk at a time.

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John Nilsson Member since:
2005-07-06

You're kind of talking about what I was thinking.

There is a need for separation, the FLOSS desktop needs a language/(or other development tool) that can do for the desktop what javascript once did for the web.

A tool that lets millions of clueless developers copy and paste code to get "cool" effekts and try out ideas. This is how you recruit and train the next generation. And this is where those odd projects that changes the world will start.

My first program was a short qbasic compilation that printed random noise on the screen, with the flashing text "Virus!" somewhere in the middle. How do you do the equivalent on a modern desktop system?

Reply Parent Score: 1

Member since:

I am not feeling like sharing how I do it right now, because it's a simple example, and many programming languages could do it in a simple way, but most wouldn't be able to do it on Windows and on Linux and on the Web with the same code. Also, when it comes to database forms and stuff like that, that's when you really need to support 90% of the developers.

But I am on the same page as you. For example, QT and GTK+ with the same program? All I need to do is to add the wrapper for QT. Maybe in the future I'll add support for QT. And maybe one day someone could add support for Cocoa. :-)

Components are king. You just need to know the interface. The rest should be hidden from you until you need it.

Reply Parent Score: 0