Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 1st Feb 2018 19:29 UTC
Internet & Networking

China's most popular messaging app, WeChat, has always had a close relationship with the Chinese government. The app has been subsidized by the government since its creation in 2011, and it's an accepted reality that officials censor and monitor users. Now, WeChat is poised to take on an even greater role: an initiative is underway to integrate WeChat with China's electronic ID system.

WeChat is a remarkably clever move by the Chinese government. Everybody over there is already using it, and by basically co-opting it, they get a free statewide monitoring and control platform. Ban a few western alternatives here and there, and you're done. Western nations are toying with similar ideas - see e.g. Germany's new laws - and it doesn't take a genius to see the dangers here. While you may 'trust' your current government to not abuse such wide-ranging laws and technical capabilities, you might not be so eager with the next one. If Americans can vote for a Trump, Europeans can, too.

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RE[2]: Choose your poison
by shepherdr on Fri 2nd Feb 2018 00:49 UTC in reply to "RE: Choose your poison"
shepherdr
Member since:
2006-01-19

Okay, China plans to monitor and rate their citizens. All very 1984 but how is this a lesson or warning for the readers of OSnews who all seem to come from liberal western democracies? What happens in China or North Korea or the old Soviet Republic are not lessons for us. They did not get to where they are through a corruption of a previously wholesome democracy.

I don't live in any of these places so I have no idea whether the control or surveillance exhibited by the state improves or worsens the lives of the people (if indeed the state even cares to about this) in those countries. I do know that overturning dictatorships in the name of democracy does lead to severe suffering (at least in the short term) in countries whose mere survival is tenuous and relies upon the rule of a dictator just to hold them together.

To suggest enacting laws which ban hate speech in Western countries amounts to the suppression of the right to free speech which will then in turn lead every civilized western democracy down an inexorable path to hegemony seems about a gazillion steps too far.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[3]: Choose your poison
by benoitb on Fri 2nd Feb 2018 07:40 in reply to "RE[2]: Choose your poison"
benoitb Member since:
2010-06-29

What is your opinion on South Korea then for example ?
It is a young democracy, they recently successfully managed to impeach their president. They however require your national ID to register for ANY online service (from e-shopping, blogs, to online gaming). South Korea is a vassal country of the USA.

What about the trend in American online services to require your real name to be used ? To require you to hand over your username and password to all online accounts when crossing the border ? Democracy or not ?

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: Choose your poison
by shepherdr on Fri 2nd Feb 2018 08:57 in reply to "RE[3]: Choose your poison"
shepherdr Member since:
2006-01-19

I haven't formed an opinion on S Korea. I don't know enough about it. Giving a real name to subscribe to a service seems reasonable to me. It seems that only the online world finds it desirable to hide ones identity. I can't think of a real world service that I have subscribed to that I was allowed to write "anonymous" in the name section of the application form. Anonymous expression of opinion does occur in the real world (graffiti for example) but not when registering for a service

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[3]: Choose your poison
by Tony Swash on Fri 2nd Feb 2018 10:38 in reply to "RE[2]: Choose your poison"
Tony Swash Member since:
2009-08-22

Okay, China plans to monitor and rate their citizens. All very 1984 but how is this a lesson or warning for the readers of OSnews who all seem to come from liberal western democracies? What happens in China or North Korea or the old Soviet Republic are not lessons for us. They did not get to where they are through a corruption of a previously wholesome democracy.

I don't live in any of these places so I have no idea whether the control or surveillance exhibited by the state improves or worsens the lives of the people (if indeed the state even cares to about this) in those countries. I do know that overturning dictatorships in the name of democracy does lead to severe suffering (at least in the short term) in countries whose mere survival is tenuous and relies upon the rule of a dictator just to hold them together.

To suggest enacting laws which ban hate speech in Western countries amounts to the suppression of the right to free speech which will then in turn lead every civilized western democracy down an inexorable path to hegemony seems about a gazillion steps too far.


I agree. China is not a liberal democracy and it is far too easy to draw unwarranted parallels and as a result get hysterically anxious about authoritarianism or state snooping in the old democracies. There are a lot of issues to unpick here. For example:

- generally the processes of democratic governance has declined in the old democracies, party support has fragmented, voter participation has declined and in Europe we have built a fairly powerful tier of governance (the EU) which is not democratic. How this will pan out long term is not yet clear.

- The rise of of social media does change cultural and political discourse in ways that are still not clear and how society might best regulate the new media is still not clear

- China will not continue to grow in the future like it has in the recent past and in fact the trajectory for the Chinese economy is much more likely to be like the trajectory of Japan which before the 1990s was believed destined to become the largest in the world but which then suffered a debt crisis followed by decades of relative stagnation (see the excellent analytical work on the Chinese economy and ‘growth miracles’ by Proff. Michael Pettis)

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE[3]: Choose your poison
by imthefrizzlefry on Fri 2nd Feb 2018 16:33 in reply to "RE[2]: Choose your poison"
imthefrizzlefry Member since:
2010-10-28

As an American who frequently visits China, I would say China is the future. When you look at all the cameras in London, you know they are hooked up to a facial recognition databases (just like in China). When you hear about the "right to be forgotten" you know it is silencing political dissent (just like in China). All it takes is for a few million people to support one power hungry person to turn all this "anti-terrorist" and "anti-hate speech" authority into a machine of oppression.

So, I think China is an excellent place to look to see the future of liberal western nations. After all, the political pendulum swings both ways, and anybody can end up with a Trump.

Reply Parent Score: 3