Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 21st Jul 2005 21:21 UTC
Java IBM has begun participating in open-source Java project Harmony and intends to contribute code to the initiative, according to a Big Blue executive.
Thread beginning with comment 7425
To view parent comment, click here.
To read all comments associated with this story, please click here.
RE: Why not Mono?
by segedunum on Fri 22nd Jul 2005 00:15 UTC in reply to "Why not Mono?"
segedunum
Member since:
2005-07-06

Well isnīt .NET a better idea?

No. There's already a huge amount of Java infrastructure around Apache itself, and in the Unix/Linux world all application servers used in corporate environments are Java based. That's where Red Hat wants to go also, simply because that's where the market and the money is. How many ASP.Net based application servers are you going to see running on Unix/Linux in corporate environments in the near future?

I think all the Gnome and Mono fanboys are missing the point here. ASP.Net and .Net on Unix/Linux are totally non-existant, no matter how many photo management applications are written with it ;-). The people at Novell haven't managed to grow Mono's usage significantly in that direction in several years, and they simply never will. Look at where the money and the market is for this sort of thing and you'll find that the number of Gnome developers using Mono doesn't make a blind bit of difference.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Why not Mono?
by japail on Fri 22nd Jul 2005 00:17 in reply to "RE: Why not Mono?"
japail Member since:
2005-06-30

Lumbergh is just a member of the Mono booster club. The vast majority of GNOME still has nothing to do with Mono.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Why not Mono?
by Lumbergh on Fri 22nd Jul 2005 00:28 in reply to "RE: Why not Mono?"
Lumbergh Member since:
2005-06-29

Your problem is that you're thinking in the server space where Java has been established for quite a while. But Java is basically non-existant on the any desktop - mostly because of Sun's mixed messages and efforts towards the desktop over the years.

Now we know that the vast majority of programming in windows will be done in .NET in the future and that opens up a huge number of components/libraries that will be instantly compatible with Mono. Mono is the bridge that windows developers are using to test the Unix waters.

And the fact remains that Java is just another one of numerous frameworks and languages for web applications. Ruby on Rails, Zope (Python), PHP that IBM is investing in, ASP.NET (Microsoft continues to gain in server space much to anger of anti-ms zealots) Not to mention that all is not a happy utopia in java server framework land. Go over to javalobby.com and read today's article about the web application frameworks. More and more java people are amazed by the simplicity of Rails development.

So you can pooh-pooh Mono all you want, but just the mere fact that windows is going almost all .NET for future programming means that Mono will be a player, one way or another.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[3]: Why not Mono?
by on Fri 22nd Jul 2005 00:45 in reply to "RE[2]: Why not Mono?"
Member since:

Java is basically non-existant on the any desktop

It is on mine, I use:

Ganttproject, FreeMind, Jchempaint, Jmol, RRSOwl, Jedit, DrawSWF, Jago, Jajuk, Limewire, Batik and Jedit.

I find them very useful as cross platform tools I can use that are the same at home on Linux as they are on XP at work.

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE[3]: Why not Mono?
by on Fri 22nd Jul 2005 03:35 in reply to "RE[2]: Why not Mono?"
Member since:

More and more java people are amazed by the simplicity of Rails development.

I see the exact opposite. Especially among people developing large-scale J2EE apps with web interfaces. http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=35202

Even at the low end, I assert that dragging and dropping view components and wiring them up to data sources with a few clicks is a lot easier than Rails. That's exactly what JDeveloper with ADF gets you. If you're looking for free, you can use a whole bunch of other IDEs with JSF and still beat out Rails in simplicity.

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE[3]: Why not Mono?
by segedunum on Fri 22nd Jul 2005 12:10 in reply to "RE[2]: Why not Mono?"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Your problem is that you're thinking in the server space where Java has been established for quite a while. But Java is basically non-existant on the any desktop - mostly because of Sun's mixed messages and efforts towards the desktop over the years.

In the Linux/Unix arena the desktop is irrelevant. The money is in Java application servers. You've been swallowing too much of this desktop crap from the money people.

Look at where the market actually is.

Now we know that the vast majority of programming in windows will be done in .NET in the future

Not on Unix/Linux they won't. This isn't about Windows.

And the fact remains that Java is just another one of numerous frameworks and languages for web applications. Ruby on Rails, Zope (Python), PHP that IBM is investing in

Java is not just another framework. It is the technology used for application servers in companies. Ruby and PHP simply are not used for it, although there is a large amount of infrastructure on the web around it.

How many sites do you see running ASP.Net on Unix/Linux compared to PHP, Java and all the momentum now behind Ruby? None, that's how many. Does ASP.Net and Mono have the momentum and interest Ruby has? No.

Again, in terms of IBM, BEA and other companies looking to get involbed in this, look at where the market and the money is. They're either Java companies, or they are companies looking to get into the Java world e.g. Red Hat.

So you can pooh-pooh Mono all you want, but just the mere fact that windows is going almost all .NET for future programming means that Mono will be a player, one way or another.

This isn't about Windows, and quite frankly, in the Unix/Linux world no one gives a toss what programming technology Microsoft now uses for it.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[3]: Why not Mono?
by segedunum on Fri 22nd Jul 2005 12:26 in reply to "RE[2]: Why not Mono?"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

mere fact that windows is going almost all .NET for future programming means that Mono will be a player, one way or another.

I also love how people make this giant magical leap from Microsoft's .Net usage translating into the usage of Mono on other platforms.

With what's happening around Eclipse now you can say that Java is definitely making a comeback on the desktop. And, because here's the distinction, there is more meaningful real-world development going on with Eclipse and Java than there is with Mono. Notice I didn't say .Net, I said Mono, because they're two different things. If people are developing for .Net they are using Microsoft's technology, not Mono's, and I think that's the crucial difference many people just cannot get their heads around. Microsoft .Net usage simply does not translate into people using Mono, that much has become very clear.

Look, it isn't happening and I've already pointed out that the companies with the money aren't going anywhere near it (this article is about IBM's involvement). There is simply no market for Mono in the real world that matters, and after several years of viewing the market, viewing the people who are involved and viewing Novell's actual usage of it in their products and organisation, from a business perspective you've got to say that it simply isn't viable.

Saying that Mono will be a player one way or another doesn't make a blind bit of difference. How is it going to happen, and why?

More and more java people are amazed by the simplicity of Rails development.

Yer, and? Is Ruby a .Net or Mono technology? Ruby is more of a player in the application server space now than ASP.Net on Mono ever will be, and relatively speaking, it's been around for a much, much shorter time period. But, Java is still where the lion's share of the market is. That's the be-all and end-all here.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Why not Mono?
by Lumbergh on Fri 22nd Jul 2005 05:29 in reply to "RE: Why not Mono?"
Lumbergh Member since:
2005-06-29

think all the Gnome and Mono fanboys are missing the point here. ASP.Net and .Net on Unix/Linux are totally non-existant, no matter how many photo management applications are written with it ;-)

Yeah, I notice how you're especially bitter from the desktop developers conference. Poor KDE don't get no respect. Haha.

http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/1256#comment

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[3]: Why not Mono?
by segedunum on Fri 22nd Jul 2005 12:37 in reply to "RE[2]: Why not Mono?"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Yeah, I notice how you're especially bitter from the desktop developers conference. Poor KDE don't get no respect. Haha.

Yes, I found that extremely hilarious simply because there is a massive gulf (as per usual) between what developers are doing, and think that they're doing, and what real-world users are actually doing and using. Strike one to Eugenia ;-).

http://www.desktoplinux.com/articles/AT2127420238.html
http://www.desktoplinux.com/cgi-bin/survey/survey.cgi?view=archive&...

And that's from the people who even know what desktop environment they are using and actually know that there was any kind of survey on!

Reply Parent Score: 1