Microsoft has offered the European Commission about 20 concessions over the EU executive’s order that it share data with rival makers of servers, the software firm said Monday.
Microsoft offers EU concessions on server data
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seems like they really can’t give in no source-related questions.. they’re doing everything to avoid the end-users (or hackers) to see the code.. do they have something to hide?
i guess that this attitude is going to stay for a while since they have enough money to.
So they’re good enough to offer ‘concessions’ to the EU now are they.
How about “They broke the f***ing law … so now they take their punishment without any fuss or they f*** off out of Europe until they feel like playing by the rules which apply when doing business in Europe”.
This really is too much!
If the EU caves, expect Microsoft to basically run wild knowing they are above the law.
If the EU wanted to show they mean business, they would force Microsoft to follow the rules. If they cave, they will be shown as cowards and a weak union.
What is their course of action in the “…or else” phase of the punishment?
If I’m caught by the police and brought before a court, I can choose which punishment I get?
Doesn’t work that way.
This is abhorrent and the equivalent of a raping of an American business. Why Microsoft continues to do business in Europe is beyond me. They should cut and run and spend the money they would have spent in Europe developing new markets in Asia. Typical money hungry Europeans
Oh come on. First off, the whole idea of a fine is to make you feel you did something wrong. Second think of all the people, resources the EU put in to researching and bringing the case to court. Third if I get convicted of fraud or something you can bet I get fined comparitively more of my income than 5 milion is of Microsofts’ income.
The phrase here is : “don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time”
> Typical money hungry Europeans
I already knew that there was Anti-Americanism in Europe. Now I learned that there is Anti-Europeanism in America. This is very sad.
> Why Microsoft continues to do
> business in Europe is beyond me
If this is beyond your horizon, then your horizon is very narrow. There are 455 millions of people in the EU, 50% more than in the USA (USA=295 millions). Microsoft does business in Europe because Microsoft depends on it.
Remember one thing: Europe is not like the USA. We have *working* and *sane* competition laws. European companies (like T-Mobile and Vodafone) get accused every day in Europe if they do not comply with the law, and so do American companies. This is called “justice”, do you know, what “justice” means?
There is absolutely no excuse for illegal or even criminal behaviour here, not even for Microsoft. In the USA, there seems to be something like this, which is very sad. Microsoft *must* comply with the law and if they do, nobody will sue them. If they do not, they will be punished and if they do so repeatedly, the punishment will be very hard, period. This is justice.
So please stop your stupid Anti-Europeanism and be quiet, thanks.
I completely agree. I don’t even understand how someone could even think that is acceptable. I wish America would have broken MS up several years ago. As far as im concerned the government failed us then, I just hope the EU isn’t going to do the same this time.
-Mike
The last I recalled, Windows(tm) belongs to Microsoft, not EU. So Microsoft can do what it wants with its OWN softwares. If EU does not like what Microsoft has to offer, they have the liberty to use another OS.
EU is (or was) an interesting market, but its syndicalist mentality has catched up in the software industry and is, again, draining lots of ressources for not much gain in the end. And as it goes, Asia is THE thing now, beware EU or you might miss the boat… again.
Yes, but they still need to obey laws.
Remember one thing: Europe is not like the USA. We have *working* and *sane* competition laws. European companies (like T-Mobile and Vodafone) get accused every day in Europe if they do not comply with the law, and so do American companies. This is called “justice”, do you know, what “justice” means?
You never saw lobbyist firms send in petitions which got a signature right away by the commisioner without doubt and passed on for vote?
Talking about sanity,why did they let 10 new member countries join the union while everybody knows they have nothing to offer but cheap labour.Because the companies can shift their production plants and get a bonus subsidiset on top.Whose economy is it that benefits most from the EU?
Take the Netherlands.I’m feeling ashamed i’m Dutch.A lot of fellow countrymen loose their jobs these days.Tough luck happens everywhere.What’s hard to digest though is they (sitting goverment) proposed to increase their wages with 30%.Reason for this exorbitant increase is a more market conformant salary,my.In my opinion good politicians (seems more a contradicto in terminis these days) have a mission, passion,drive,and ideals,above all love to do what they are good at,(filling their pockets?).
> The last I recalled, Windows(tm)
> belongs to Microsoft, not EU.
No, it does NOT. Everything that is sold within a state (whether it is America or Europe or Asia does not matter) belongs to the jurisdiction of that particular state and has to obey certain rules. These rules are called “laws”.
> So Microsoft can do what it wants
> with its OWN softwares.
No, it CANNOT. The LAW (listen, we are talking about the LAW here) does not belong to Microsoft, but to the citizens. The citizens are represented by a court, and this court decided that Microsoft VIOLATED the law and needs to be punished.
> If EU does not like what Microsoft
> has to offer, they have the liberty
> to use another OS.
Yes, they do have this liberty. But additionally, they do have the liberty (and the legal obligation!) to punish ANY illegal behaviour.
Oh my God, you have to leard A LOT about democracy and justice! Start reading the constition of the USA, then read the constitutions of several European states, and then read some articles. AFTERWARDS, come back. If you don’t want to learn and read, you cannot discuss these topics, it’s just too embarassing!
Just in case you are not trolling.
> The last I recalled, Windows(tm) belongs to Microsoft,
> not EU. So Microsoft can do what it wants with its
> OWN softwares. If EU does not like what Microsoft has
> to offer, they have the liberty to use another OS.
And by analogy Europe has laws governing what businesses may and may not do, and what punishments are given to those that break the law. If Microsoft wants to do business in Europe, it has to follow those laws. Period. If Microsoft sees those laws as unjust, it has the liberty of not doing business there.
What does all this stuff have to do with competition laws? Nothing. This is not the right place for general discussion since we have a very clear topic here, i.e. competition laws and the way Microsoft behaves.
Another hint for you: The decision that Microsoft violated the law was *NOT* made by politicians. It was not made by good politicians nor was it made by bad politicians, but it was made by a COURT. Do you get the difference?
The decision that Microsoft violated the law was *NOT* made by politicians. It was not made by good politicians nor was it made by bad politicians, but it was made by a COURT. Do you get the difference?
Microsoft has offered the European *Commission* about 20 concessions over the EU executive’s order that it share data with rival makers of servers, the software firm said Monday
there can be only a court if ther’s law.Ironically we still have to vote in favor/against a European law during a still to come referendum.
A commision isn’t realy a court.Do you get the difference?
Not that i sleep less that MS gets some punishment or the other example companies.Because the make enough money and in the end the customer pays them everything back with interest:-)
The last I recalled, Windows(tm) belongs to Microsoft, not EU.
The next time I get a speeding ticket here in the states, I guess I’ll kindly remind the judge that he can’t fine me, because that’s my money. I worked for it and it belongs to me! So he can’t have any of it. I wonder what he’ll say?
If you’d have a company and were forced to release trade secrets, or whatever comes close in this case, wouldn’t you try everything to avoid doing this? “It’s the law” isn’t exactly a valid argument to justify this.
Havent you EU people figured it out.. To americans the only laws that should apply are american laws. Because you can buy your way out of them. Now Im sure you can do this in Europe, but this options is only available to European companies,, much like american law is only buyable for american companies. In amercia the defining view is everyone else is just wrong.
So please stop your stupid Anti-Europeanism and be quiet, thanks.
Sorry if all i see in what the EU has done with Microsoft as another Anti-american ploy by the EU to exercise some form of authority in world politics and commerce. The EU sees fit to disagree with their greatest aly(America) just so they can pretend to play world super power. I have travelled to many places in Europe and had discussions with Europeans(including family members) about World politics and America in general. I have never met more out of touch people in all my life. Most Europeans have no clue about the what and why that is America yet they vicouisly criticize me and my country men on topics they know nothing about. Again and i will say it again Europeans are concerned with material wealth and money and it shows with the actions they have taken with Microsoft and other world issues.
1)) One of the consessions which the EU want is for Microsoft to allow opensource projects to license the source code at an equitable pricing – not so that they can copy the code, but so that compatibility can be maintained – compatibility which isn’t aways sucessful simply by reading the specifications; sometimes it is necessary to have that actual code in front of you to check things over.
2) Smartpatrol – the US is as bad as the EU and vice versa; I don’t disagree that there is a climate of tit for tat in regards with EU competition law and whether or not the EU gives mergers a blessing or not BUT with that being said, the EU competition law is COMPLETELY and UTTERLY different to the anti-competition laws in the US – especially in how the EU views the obligations a dominant player has with in a market.
The EU view that as Microsofts a dominant in the software market, they there for have an obligation to ensure that the doors for other competitors to enter the market are not closed off via proprietary and closed source implementations, hence the move to have a more equitable Windows source code licensing system as to allow competitors to implement Windows technologies by ensuring that their product is compatible rather than a hit-and-miss scenario in reference to the current situation.
As for the geopolitical views on bothsides; please, this is neither the appropriate forum nor the appropriate topic to bring these issues up, however, to claim that that EU citizens are more clueless about world politics is naive at best. I’m sure no one needs to be told about how bad ‘middle America’s’ knowledge of issues beyond their borders are or the lack of insight into why certain events happen beyond the usual excuses that the powers that be give – aka, ‘the hate us because they don’t like our freedoms’ (as if every US opponent is secretly sadomasochistic tendencies).
Most Europeans have no clue about the what and why that is America yet they vicouisly criticize me and my country men on topics they know nothing about. Again and i will say it again Europeans are concerned with material wealth and money and it shows with the actions they have taken with Microsoft and other world issues.
While I agree with what I quoted (although I think US is just as bad), it seems like kind of a strange argument. The typical anti-American argument is that we’re greedy capitalists who know nothing of the actual world and are only concerned about money. I guess it just sounds strange for an American to say the same about the Europeans.
@tobaccofarm:
The commission only *executes* what a court has decided before. The court decided that Microsoft must release network interfaces, and now the commission has to define *how* this will be done.
@Weeman:
Microsoft folks can “try” everything to get around the decision, but in the end, they will *have* to fulfill the law, whether they want it or not. This is not a question of will, it’s a question of legal obligations.
Another point: You are talking about “trade secrets”. Microsoft is a monopolist. Monopolists do not have a claim to trade secrets. Ergo: Microsoft does not have a claim to trade secrets, period.
@Smartpatrol:
You simply don’t get it! The EU does not “pretend to play world super power”, the EU punished the two *very* European companies T-Mobile and Vodafone for abusing their monopolies by making price-fixing agreements, and so they punish Microsoft for abusing its monopoly.
You are again trying to enforce an absolutely useless America-vs-Europe flamewar. Please stop that. The EU does not punish Microsoft because it is from America, but because it behaves illegaly. Your flamewars are frustrating and superfluous.
If you are so narrow-minded that you do not even listen to the facts people are telling you, especially to the T-Mobile/Vodafone example, then please do not participate in this discussion and flame elsewhere. This is not the right place for political America-vs-Europe flamewars.
Please understand that an American company broke the law just as European companies do every day and gets punished just as European companies get punished every day. If you don’t knew that all companies are treated equal, it’s your problem.
@kaiwai:
Thanks for your very sophisticated statements. I totally agree.
No, it does NOT. Everything that is sold within a state (whether it is America or Europe or Asia does not matter) belongs to the jurisdiction of that particular state and has to obey certain rules. These rules are called “laws”.
If that was the case, every juridiction would own Windows, which imply they would also own the code…
Microsoft have to obey the rules of these juridictions but their products still belong to them.
Microsoft does business in Europe because Microsoft depends on it.
And the EU still allow Microsoft to do business in Europe because they depend on them. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have this saga: they would have been banned a long time ago.
@kaiwai
2) Smartpatrol – the US is as bad as the EU and vice versa;
Sorry but that is the lamest argument i have seen yet.
@G.W.
You simply don’t get it! The EU does not “pretend to play world super power”
I will respectivly disagree.
You are again trying to enforce an absolutely useless America-vs-Europe flamewar. Please stop that. The EU does not punish Microsoft because it is from America, but because it behaves illegaly. Your flamewars are frustrating and superfluous.
I am simply stating what i beleive to be general Anti-American/American Companies views in Europe. Its almost trendy to hate America in Europe among the younger generations. Most of the hate is based on ignorance. I do my small part to point that out as bluntly as i can without getting modded down
If you are so narrow-minded that you do not even listen to the facts people are telling you, especially to the T-Mobile/Vodafone example, then please do not participate in this discussion and flame elsewhere. This is not the right place for political America-vs-Europe flamewars.
Packaging WMP in Windows(Microsofts own friggin product) is criminal? don’t like WMP in windows don’t buy windows! Not a monopoly in the true definition. I refuse to listen to the EU whiners on these boards complain that the US did nothing to “control” the Microsoft “monopoly” and that the EU is somehow a hero for disciplining Microsoft for no other reason then to flex its muscle as a new governing body same thing they did with the recent Iraq war. This compaired to the monopoly the government run phone and mail systems had in Germany? Or better yet the unions in Europe! why aren’t they being cracked down on? Ever consider trying to create and operate your own start up roofing business(something done everyday in the US) in Germany? Good luck!
I am simply stating what i beleive to be general Anti-American/American Companies views in Europe. Its almost trendy to hate America in Europe among the younger generations. Most of the hate is based on ignorance. I do my small part to point that out as bluntly as i can without getting modded down
No it *is* trendy, except among the gun nuts or white trash where it’s trendy to *love* the US. It doesn’t matter since as Kawai pointed out we’re basically the same people – it’s called western civilization.
Now Americans seem to be as ignorant about America as most Europeans. We all know the “land of the free, home of the brave” bull, balanced in Europe by a view of current events (conveniently forgetting our own part in stirring the sh.t) But the same with Americans, just look at history conveniently forgotten: let’s invade Mexico to get California, let’s fight the Spanish for Cuba/Philippines/Puerto Rico, let’s take the towelheads’ oil …
Basically we’re going down the drain together not seeing the beam in our own respective eyes. It just seems that America has gone into “The Second Religiousness” (cfr ‘The Decline of the West’ Oswald Spengler) a bit ahead of us.
No it *is* trendy, except among the gun nuts or white trash where it’s trendy to *love* the US. It doesn’t matter since as Kawai pointed out we’re basically the same people – it’s called western civilization.
Tell that toi the French and the Germans.
Now Americans seem to be as ignorant about America as most Europeans.
Perhaps. We all know the “land of the free, home of the brave” bull,
Bull? wow you just demostrated exactly what i was talking about thanks.
balanced in Europe by a view of current events (conveniently forgetting our own part in stirring the sh.t)
every time.
But the same with Americans, just look at history conveniently forgotten: let’s invade Mexico to get California, let’s fight the Spanish for Cuba/Philippines/Puerto Rico,
Huh what does that have to do with anything? I am well aware of American history its not something i shy away from different times require different measures.
let’s take the towelheads’ oil …
The typical news media fed European Opinion “its all about Oil argument” Thanks again.
Its almost trendy to hate America in Europe among the younger generations.
Of course it’s trendy to hate Americans in Europe. It’s also trendy to hate Europeans in America. What’s your point? This has absolutely NOTHING to do with this thread.
Reading your posts, do you not believe MS is a monopoly? Please justify this. Otherwise, you need to justify why this is a bad punishment, or why the EU should not be able to punish them. Don’t just start spouting off anti-European cr*p and acting like this is a big conspiracy.
Of course it’s trendy to hate Americans in Europe. It’s also trendy to hate Europeans in America. What’s your point? This has absolutely NOTHING to do with this thread.
Yeah whatever most people in America don’t give a damn about Europe(for various reasons).
Reading your posts, do you not believe MS is a monopoly? Please justify this. Otherwise, you need to justify why this is a bad punishment, or why the EU should not be able to punish them. Don’t just start spouting off anti-European cr*p and acting like this is a big conspiracy.
Your reading comprehension sucks to put it mildly. Microsoft has never been a monopoly in the true sense of the definition. They are a choice created consumer preference in software. AT&T in the 80’s was a true monopoly i.e. consumer didn’t have a choice in phone service. There has always been a choice in computers and Operating systems as long as Microsoft has been around.
I distrust any foreign entity “Punishing” any American company since you can never know what the motivations of the the foreign entity is. In the case of the EU i believe it is mainly a political move and a means to fund the EU as a governing body and to toss around political clout. There are many reason to for the EU to use Microsoft as a target for this ver purpose. If it was North Korea or Iran “Punishing” Microsoft would you feel the same? half a billion dollars flowing into know detractors of the US.
Tell that toi the French and the Germans.
I daresay the French and Germans these days don’t argue any more than a Texan and New Yorker do. Frankly I don’t know anyone of my generation (born after ’70) that considers a new european war or serious cooling of relationships a possibility.
Bull? wow you just demostrated exactly what i was talking about thanks.
Yep bull, the French are the same with their ‘egalité, liberté fraternité’ (equality peace and brotherhood.) Nice rhetoric but meaningless.
You think Tomas Jefferson would recognise (or even like) the US of today ?
Huh what does that have to do with anything? I am well aware of American history its not something i shy away from different times require different measures.
You don’t measure persons or nations by what they say but what they do. The west, including Europe and the US went imperialist long ago. These ‘different times’ are in reality just one continuous path started on long ago (as illustrated by my examples)
Of course some Americans did embody the aforementioned bull
Samuel Clemens and the Anti-Imperialist League come to mind. Some still do but it’s mostly rethoric (vs the reality of slavery through japanese-american internment camps to present day guantanamo bay)
The typical news media fed European Opinion “its all about Oil argument” Thanks again.
Oil is misleading, a whole host of companies/persons benefitted ofcourse. The “freedom” argument doesn’t work although I would buy the revenge theory where invading Iraq was payback for trying to assasinate Bush sr.
They are a choice created consumer preference in software. AT&T in the 80’s was a true monopoly i.e. consumer didn’t have a choice in phone service. There has always been a choice in computers and Operating systems as long as Microsoft has been around.
No that’s the point the EU is making, you do not have a choice because you would be locked out of using to many media files, documents, web services etc. in proprietary forms ms has a stranglehold over. And even when alternatives exist there’s the uncertainty they could change them overnight to break reverse engineered compatibility.
I distrust any foreign entity “Punishing” any American company since you can never know what the motivations of the the foreign entity is. In the case of the EU i believe it is mainly a political move and a means to fund the EU as a governing body and to toss around political clout.
It’s not about US vs EU. When the EU wants to make a point it goes for steal or grain or even beef not software. It just doesn’t make sense, Microsoft has to large a presence here – from local branches to acquired companies like Navision.
If it was North Korea or Iran “Punishing” Microsoft would you feel the same? half a billion dollars flowing into know detractors of the US.
Damn, we’re on the ‘regime-change’ list now 🙂 Please get Chirac and Berlusconi first.
s/steal/steel/ # It’s no freudian slip
Can MS even sell to Iran or N. Korea? I thought we had an embargo against that, but maybe it doesn’t apply to software. I think the fact that you’re comparing those regimes to the democracies of western europe shows that you really have no objectivity in this at all… No more comments on this by me.
Oh, and my reading comprehension was 12+ back in 7th grade, so if I’m having trouble understanding you, I don’t think it’s my fault.
And to pre-emptively stop the cheap joke, no I’m not in 8th grade now, I’m graduating from college.
This discussion is lost. It has a very well-defined topic, but instead of discussing the *topic*, some people are just *bashing* other nations and enforcing flamewars that have nothing to do with the interface documentation Microsoft has to release now.
Hello, we are *not* talking about one continent vs. another continent, but about network interfaces and interoperability and competition. If you want to flame and insult other people, do it, but do it elsewhere, thanks.
@Smartpartol
> I refuse to listen to the EU whiners on these boards
Thanks for clarifying this! You refuse to listen to the fact that 1+1=2, so do whatever you want, but stop insulting other people and flame elsewhere. And you will have to learn a lot, especially the difference between “whining” and the LAW.
Well sorry life isn’t black and white.And no matter how clearly you define a subject it’s not wise to reject everything that seems not to fit your referential fit at first site.
You refuse to listen to the fact that 1+1=2
They are guilty? so what’s left to talk about?