Usability has always been a controversial aspect of free software development, but one that is becoming increasingly important along with the uptake of GNU/Linux distributions in businesses and homes. Developers’ discussions about usability are often marked by shrill accusations and defensive responses. Implementing usability suggestions can mean giving up months of feature-building. But according to a few developers and usability experts working on KDE, bringing usability experts into the hackers’ work processes can be a big help.
KDE developers, usability experts complement each other
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Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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I think the whole usability thing is too drawn out and and overdone. Computer interfaces are more or less naturally evolving.
“Computer interfaces are more or less naturally evolving.”
A lot did probably really simply evolve and it shows, which is exactly the problem these guys want to address.
Compiled 12.05.2005. They are customized for my own needs and are not representative.
http://img99.echo.cx/my.php?image=snapshot10qu.jpg
http://img102.echo.cx/my.php?image=snapshot22rk.jpg
http://img99.echo.cx/my.php?image=snapshot39vf.jpg
http://img241.echo.cx/my.php?image=snapshot42sc.jpg
whenever kde and usability is mentioned there there will be many comments stating how bad kde’s usability is and that it is bloated and bla bla…
If you are gonna post a comment like this please try to be specific what you think has bad usability and why… then we can discuss about it…
An example: kopete
Sending a file requires 2 submenu, no easy way on the toolbar or any of the top menus.
While I like your taste in music I’m not sure the point pof your post? Are you a member of the team? Are these problems or changes or suggestions that are in the screenshots or what?
> While I like your taste in music
Thanks.
> I’m not sure the point pof your post?
Promotion as a happy KDE user. Proving that KDE is quite usable for me as is. See it as a gesture of friendly offering from my side. People interested to know how KDE from SVN TRUNK looks like can have a free peek.
> Are you a member of the team?
No.
> Are these problems or changes or suggestions that are in the screenshots or what?
No.
drag and drop the file into an open chat window.
maybe usability can be improved by better documentation.
There’s obviously lot of stuff that miss usability :
1. Too much things on the K menu. Above all, i think the core kde distrib should only provide a few components and usefull application (konqueror, kmail, kopete, amarak, plus some others). But when i open a menu or a submenu, its too agressive
And too much entries means too much places to remember and to much icons to design* and to assimilate.
2. Since i began with KDE (i much appreciated kde 1.0
, i was impressed by the quick and efficient developments made. But i also found that it increase desktop experience complixity. Dont misunderstand me, i’am not saying that a lot of stuff to configure is not fun. But, it must not be part of the UI. When you want to configure window behavior, you got so much differents options.
3. On the other side, i apreciate seeing that with the time, KDE applications uses each other even i think it’s not enought. It would be so great if you was able to see your kopetes friends in a part of konqueror just to be able to send files by drag n droping…
Just my opinion and few ideas
Heya,
I believe that if you use kopete and right-click on a file, there is an option: send to person … Maybe other chat-programs also provide this service.
Michel
What would be really nice is to just drag a file into the chat window, like what iChat does.
Gaim does the same thing in Gnome, not sure about KDE.
>>What would be really nice is to just drag a file into the chat window, like what iChat does.
That works for me, using KDE 3.4
um, is it just me or does drag and drop require opening a file manager? seems that if opening a second program is the easiest way to send a file something is wrong.
>if opening a second program is the easiest way to send a file something is wrong.
Opening a filemanager to find the file or open the filepiker in the running app to select the wanted file. Not a big difference in my book. And what if you already have the filemanger open where the file is, not to uncommon situation is it not.
KDE 3.4 is beautiful and fast. I have never been more productive. Just my opinion.
Excellent to hear that KDE is increasingly focused on usability concerns.
I feel the same way KDE is headed in the right direction. It is very flexible (as is Gnome) and can be personalized in almost anyway imaginable without the help of third party programs. Don’t like the “K” button, remove it, move panels bars..etc..
Users getting to add input is the way it should be, congrats all.
Keep up the good work..
x
That’s right Konqueror’s interface needs an overhaul. How can anyone look at this at tell me sanity resides within it?
http://img99.echo.cx/my.php?image=snapshot39vf.jpg
That doesn’t mean I expect you to feel the same way though. Use what your comfortable with. That’s a great thing about open source – real choice!
The reason I believe that is clutter. There seems to be too many icons crushed together in Konquerer and the KDE menu is loaded with stuff all named with a ‘k’ in front of it. My brain honestly starts to overload. I believe is the less is more principle.
However many distributions seem to make KDE shine when the heavily customize it (Linspire).
Gnome just seems clearer to me. I also prefer professional corporate Linux distributions like Red Hat and they pretty much all default to Gnome.
“The reason I believe that is clutter. There seems to be too many icons crushed together in Konquerer and the KDE menu is loaded with stuff all named with a ‘k’ in front of it. My brain honestly starts to overload. I believe is the less is more principle.”
Excellent. Although I agree that KDE is more cluttered than Gnome, this is only due to the differences in HIG philosophy between the two projects. Gnome: “less is more” idea of usability versus KDE “more choice, well organized” This article is about them getting more well organized and thus more “usable” in the KDE sense. I like the differences in the DE’s. It is exactly because the two projects have different goals that I feel they will both survive and grow.
For consistent theme between Gnome and KDE use
http://freshmeat.net/projects/gtkthemeswitch/
GTK theme switch to use your GTK themes from your Gnome install in KDE. I am using it to make a consistent “MacOSx” desktop across Gnome (using AquaExtremeSunken theme) and KDE (using Baghira)
http://matthewfogel.blogspot.com/2005_05_08_matthewfogel_archive.ht…
Sure, it may not improve usability in itself, but having a consistent interface (say selecting Plastik in both Qt/KDE apps and GTKx) sure is pretty.
“That’s right Konqueror’s interface needs an overhaul. How can anyone look at this at tell me sanity resides within it? ”
I completely agree with you. The first thing I do with KDE is remove all but one menubar and set the menubar up Firefox style. Then it’s usable. I hope Konq is one of the 11 projects working with usability.org
“I completely agree with you. The first thing I do with KDE is remove all but one menubar and set the menubar up Firefox style. Then it’s usable. I hope Konq is one of the 11 projects working with usability.org”
Have you tried working with Konq’s tool bar editor? My God, it’s just as nasty. When I mean an overhaul, I mean the whole GUI needs to be massively refactored. KDE has a big challenge ahead of it in terms of usability.
Better to actively steer the usabillity process than let it naturally evolve.While KDE is in my personal view a major part of the Linux desktop it isn’t a synonym for Linux.So i hope other projects will adopt this initiative as well.
Have you tried working with Konq’s tool bar editor? My God, it’s just as nasty. When I mean an overhaul, I mean the whole GUI needs to be massively refactored. KDE has a big challenge ahead of it in terms of usability.
Well, well, this is another usability expert jump in.
Sorry if this feel sarcastic, but you did not mention any kind of nastiness of tool bar editor. You just said, “My God, it’s just as nasty”. And then stop.
And please make sure that your suggestions are not just personal taste, will you? And, have you learn about Learnability and Usability? The differences of them. And please make sure that you not misinterpret each of them. And finally please make sure that your suggestions are making usability really good but don’t reduce learnability. Please?
Come back with your study, and not just looking at screen for 5 minutes.
Too many usability “expert” these days.
Adi Wibowo,
Stop pleading with me. Go and play with Firefox or Epiphany’s tool bar editor and then come back to help me reiterate how hideous Konq’s is.
You don’t need to be usability expert to discern what is tasteful and what isn’t. Half of the time these so called “usability” experts talk a lot of crap anyways.
Hm. You are the one who said about nastiness of toolbar editor and then you ask me to list it by my self? I don’t think that really work.
I just want anyone can differentiate between real usability issues and preferences. Too many people can’t differentiate between usability and learnability too. Not just “this suck” especially without any data at all, or with “Go, see by yourself”.
Maybe you should just try and compare toolbar editors in Firefox and Konqueror. I could explain to you and then compare the layout and working principles of both, but I won’t, because it is just a waste of words. The first is usable and intuitive, the second is not.
Apropos Toolbar editor.. Why doesn’t GNOME get their Toolbar mess fixed first ? It’s easier to wipe dirt infront of the own door rather than trying to wipe the dirt infront of other people’s door.
Have a look at this Toolbar mess from GNOME. Icon, Text below Icons, Draghandles, no Draghandles, Different sizes etc.
http://img234.echo.cx/my.php?image=screenshot34ji.jpg
The problem with kde toolbar editor is that you don’t see all the icons that are in the toolbar. When you open the toolbar editor you see three or four of ten icons and the rest are “metabars” so you see a name but not the icons.
The problem with those “metabars” is that you don’t know exactly where does one begin and where does end. Instead, if you want to put an icon in a place you just try when you *think* it might be and if you are wrong, then you try again.
That’s a complete nightmare, and needs one solution:
1. When you add a “metabar” to the right side of the editor, show all the icons in that metabar, identifying them as a toolbar on his own.
2. Change the editor to a firefox-like behavor, dragging and dropping items in the toolbar directly.
Personally I find the second way better, but the first way is a great improvement in usability as well.
Still the same, sorry.
Someone pointed out that this thing has bad usability by “just look by yourself”. Can you, both usability expert, tell me the differences between purpose of konq’s toolbar editor and firefox toolbar editor? If you can’t then your usability explanation (“working principles of both”) is useless.
I did not defend konq’s toolbar editor. Konq’s toolbar editor just an example of how some usability “expert” wannabe at slashdot and this site became an expert by just looking at the screen FOR 5 MINUTES. This is an exageration, I know, but you get my point.
So, if you want to say this thing is useful, usable, good or bad, pleease at least give us one reason. If you do that, good, if you don’t, bad for you.
I am finished with usability experts. Bye.
He *does know* what is wrong with it, it’s just so obvious he can’t be bothered to spell it out. You as a ‘usability expert’ should find it incredibly obvious.
Anyway, just to prove you wrong, I’ll spell it out for you:
Konqueror->Settings->Configure Toolbars.
First of all there are 4 menu items starting with ‘Configure’. You’re already in the ‘Settings’ menu, it should clearly be called ‘Toolbars’. Or maybe a ‘Configure’ submenu.
Firefox’s toolbar settings are also in a slightly weird (though less so) place (View->Toolbars->Customise).
Ok, so when you are in the editor, Firefox presents you with a nice simple drag and drop interface. It even draws a line where the item will be placed.
In Konqueror, I am presented with a drop-down list of 14 (!) toolbars, 9 of which are labelled ‘Extra Toolbar <something>’ Where <something> can be as confusing as ‘khtmlsettingsplugin’. It gives no idea as to where the toolbars will appear, and in fact, I seem to only have 4 toolbars (appart from the 20 or so ‘Document Relations’ ones) in Settings->Toolbars. Hmm, weird.
Anyway, let’s edit Main Toolbar <khtmlpart> (whatever that is). Hmm I have no idea what the difference between a ‘line separator’ and a plain ‘separator’ is… Also, what is the blank think I can add and remove? Shouldn’t all the items at least have labels?!
Why do I have to add increase/decrease font sizes to Main Toolbar <khtmlpart> rather than Main Toolbar <Konqueror>.
It is clearly overly complicated and confusing.
In Konqueror, I am presented with a drop-down list of 14 (!) toolbars, 9 of which are labelled ‘Extra Toolbar <something>’ Where <something> can be as confusing as ‘khtmlsettingsplugin’. It gives no idea as to where the toolbars will appear, and in fact, I seem to only have 4 toolbars (appart from the 20 or so ‘Document Relations’ ones) in Settings->Toolbars. Hmm, weird.
I think some of those “toolbars” aren’t toolbars at all but actually appear as submenus of the “Tools” menu. So I guess it should be “Configure Toolbars and Tools Menu …”
. Confusing!
Anyway, let’s edit Main Toolbar <khtmlpart> (whatever that is). Hmm I have no idea what the difference between a ‘line separator’ and a plain ‘separator’ is…
To confuse matters further, you can switch off drawing the line on line separators in Plastik’s style settings (“Draw toolbar item separators”, not to be confused with “Draw toolbar separator”).
Another big problem is toolbar items like “<Merge>” or “Actionlist:something or other” that you can remove, but you can’t put back on. Also there are multiple “Main Toolbars”, which doesn’t make sense. Presumably “<Merge>” pulls these together but that simply isn’t obvious at all.
It is clearly overly complicated and confusing.
Yeah, we don’t need no stinking everything, we want lameproof, dumb@ss interfaces like gnome has, so we have to die first before being able to customize everything to one’s needs.
Customize, oh, sorry, I forgot I was mentioning gnome here. Hell, I even remember one of my pals mentioning for how long gnome didn’t have proper edge flipping. Oh come on.
Please, people, please, if you have any mercy, don’t let kde be the next playground of the gnome hig guys.
I just love kde. I love it for many years now. There are many things I love it for. One of the most important reasons is that I can very easily completely customize it the way I find it useful and usable.
I don’t want to use some people’s dream of a usable gui. Or if I have to, then for god’s sake, make some hidden expert mode button someplace which transforms the whole shebang back to the real kde. Thanks
Another big problem is toolbar items like “<Merge>” or “Actionlist:something or other” that you can remove, but you can’t put back on. Also there are multiple “Main Toolbars”, which doesn’t make sense. Presumably “<Merge>” pulls these together but that simply isn’t obvious at all
Yep, you’re quite right.
The toolbar system needs an overhaul. My proposal would be to make an epiphany-like system which you can use to edit the toolbars of the current view-profile and putting the current system somewhere in the settings menu in an advanced->more advanced->uber-advanced submenu.
The toolbar editor makes sense if you’re an expert and due to the flexibility of Konqueror it’s important to have a powerful toolbar editor but for new users it can (it is) overkill. (Although it’s not that hard to figure out how to drag a button from the left pane to the right, the danger to remove one of the special entries is too high)
Another option that I’d place differently is “hide menubar”. Hide/Show menubar is also one of these really useful options (I like to have a way to expand popups to full featured browser windows) that is simply to dangerous where it is now. At least make a dialog “Do you really want to hide the menubar (you can un-hide it back by pressing “Ctrl+M” or choosing “Show Menubar” in the right-click menu)
<checkbox> Do not ask again”
“Apropos Toolbar editor.. Why doesn’t GNOME get their Toolbar mess fixed first ? It’s easier to wipe dirt infront of the own door rather than trying to wipe the dirt infront of other people’s door.
Have a look at this Toolbar mess from GNOME. Icon, Text below Icons, Draghandles, no Draghandles, Different sizes etc.
http://img234.echo.cx/my.php?image=screenshot34ji.jpg“
it should be pointed out that most of those apps are written by completely different people/groups that probably have varying levels of affiliation with gnome. so their interfaces really shoudln’t be held against gnome the desktop.
also while i don’t know all the apps i know gedit for instance lets you decide whether or not to have icons with text or not and i think it even allows for a “show drag handles”, don’t know i’m not in linux at the moment but i think it does.
also will people stop posting that stupid screenshot in every thread that even resembles usibility.
He *does know* what is wrong with it, it’s just so obvious he can’t be bothered to spell it out. You as a ‘usability expert’ should find it incredibly obvious.
Anyway, just to prove you wrong, … deleted
My dear Tim, you really don’t know what i wrote, do you?
Sigh, read back, and give proper comment.
Did I wrote something about how good konq toolbar editor is, _SO_ you _NEED_ to _PROVE_ me wrong? I DID NOT.
All I wrote is for some usability experts wannabe who just want to say “this usability suck”, please provide some examples and reasons. If they do, good, if they don’t, bad for them.
Didn’t it what I write before?
Try not to read without prejudice, will you?
A growing majority prefer KDE (I’ll not abuse you with the link, you’ve all seen it). I am one of them. I enjoy the fact that KDE lets me do thing my way, they don’t decide for me how things will look (such as the order of the dialog buttons) whether I like it or not.
If you’re going to appeal to the lowest common denominator, you’ll end up with the bottom strata and none of those above it. Have some faith in your users’ intelligence and ability to know what he wants.
“A growing majority prefer KDE (I’ll not abuse you with the link, you’ve all seen it).”
And already been shot down. But you knew that.
“I am one of them. I enjoy the fact that KDE lets me do thing my way, they don’t decide for me how things will look (such as the order of the dialog buttons) whether I like it or not. ”
And that’s why this “endevour” will have problems. Whatever decisions are made, someone will complain that it’s taking away some kind of freedom.
“If you’re going to appeal to the lowest common denominator, you’ll end up with the bottom strata and none of those above it. Have some faith in your users’ intelligence and ability to know what he wants.”
One doesn’t need faith. One simply needs to pay attention to consequences. That’s part of the reason this story exists.
I hope this serves as an example to GNOME developers, who proved of late to be such thick heads and out-of-sync with reality, when they rejected any proposal for usability.
This is an area where GNOME is increasingly lagging behind. Their interface guidelines smell of MacOS 8…in 2005.