Is Linux For Losers?

Like the article says in the bottom, I have also seen kernel code that says things like “does this belong here” or application code that says things like “fix me” or “finish me”.

You do realize that such comments also appear in the BSD kernels, as others have already pointed out, right?

Similar funny and/or seemingly unprofessional comments are also to be found in the Windows source code:

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/2/15/71552/7795

It seems to me that your comment was another attempt at FUD. For instance, why did you feel the need to specify that you were a long-time user? Was it to give yourself more credibility? The problem is that, since anyone can claim anything on the Internet, such self-awarded credentials are meaningless. The strength of one’s argument is what counts.

Sure, Linux devs should always strive to make a better kernel, but such flamebait as what Theo wrote doesn’t help in any way.

“You know what I found? Right in the kernel, in the heart of the operating system, I found a developer’s comment that said, ‘Does this belong here?’ “Lok says. “What kind of confidence does that inspire? Right then I knew it was time to switch.”

Sun developers put the word “Shit” in the Solaris source code. Guess Lok should switch any Solaris servers they have running. Jesus christ, what kind of piss poor management team would switch their entire product line to a new OS because of a comment in the source code.

And what exactly, may I ask, was the point of this article?

I run FreeBSD on al my desktops, including my old Toshiba laptop. It runs very fast and very stable 🙂

“If De Raadt truly believe in core groups making systems he’s no open source proponent; he’s a Brooksian developer who believes code should be shared.

Open Source generally implies a large (large being a value which is hard to find and track) number of developers who aren’t working together so much. Usually there’s a core group that weeds the good from the bad and the large group makes submissions”

This is so wrong in so many ways. The GPL might imply something of that nature but Open Source implies nothing of that nature. The only thing Open Source implies is that the source is readable and available to everyone. But of course, a GPL zealot would not know that GPL does not equal to open source.

FreeBSD is supervised by a team that tries to make the most coherent system, that published a book that is as up to date as possbile, and even that most of the 12500 applications which are ported to FreeBSD can work on the same system with as little conflicts are possible.

[Updating the portsdb <format:bdb1_btree> in /usr/ports … – 13101 port entries found ………1000………2000………3000………4000………5000….. ….6000………7000………8000………9000………10000……… 11000………12000………13000. ….. done]

Lets see my SuSE distro is easy to use for a ex-windows user, well I still game on windows show me a user freindly BSD & I will look at it.

My FreeBSD desktop as well. No graphical install doesn’t mean it isn’t userfriendly..

And behind Linux there is Bill Gates, for whoever still hasn’t understood this yet…

Linux is Gates’ trojan horse to demolish the competition and so far it succeeded since it smashed IBM like never before as well as many other Companies/Corporations that were tricked into thinking that Linux was the best way to raise profits without investing as much as they did in the past in Unix programming/mantainance and such… and IBM was among those that invented UNIXes in practice, with AIX being among the best .. and still it got tricked due to its poor management full of retarded guys that can’t see Gates’ tricks and tactics… so Bill Gates managed to sink IBM for the 3rd time, the issue here is that this time IBM is going to bomb forever, it’s just a question of time (and not so much at this point,the Company it’s in its worst state thruout its whole history).

“This is so wrong in so many ways. The GPL might imply something of that nature but Open Source implies nothing of that nature. The only thing Open Source implies is that the source is readable and available to everyone. But of course, a GPL zealot would not know that GPL does not equal to open source.”

Read the Cathedral and the Bazaar (usually called the Open Source manifesto) and then get back to me.

Open Source implies a lot more than readable. That’s distributed source, viewable source, etc. Openness actually implies inclusion. For example:

“You’re wrong, it’s always been this way.”

“Come on man, be more open minded!”

He wasn’t saying: “Let me read your mind!” He was saying: “Let me manipulate your mind!”

Get it, got it, good .

I think that by suggesting that Theo is “a huge proponent of free software”, you may be giving the wrong message, it would appear that he has no interest in free software, as defined by the FSF(http://www.fsf.org/), but rather in plain old open source, sources are available, but there’s no reason why a company can’t take said sources, make extensive changes to them, produce a commercial product, and give absolutely nothing, other than a tiny copyright notice, back to the community from which the sources came.

This discussion reminds me of Mac users, with no experience of using Windows, arguing with Windows users, with no experience of MacOS, about why their OS is so much better than the other’s, granted, in the above situation neither side has the benefit of source code and programming knowledge behind them, but the analogy still stands.

when he stated in a recent newsforge interview( http://os.newsforge.com/os/05/06/09/2132233.shtml?tid=8&tid=2 ) that he has never run linux, it really made me wonder.

We can all argue the toss to “prove” that something is better than the other, without ever actually getting anything productive from the discussion, but it’s not something that one expects very much outside of teenhood.

OpenBSD is a minority OS, more so than linux, so he’s going in for anything he can do to get a little media attention, sour grapes? yes, most probably.

For all the l33t people:

Newbie: Hey yo what is that OS you using.

L33t0: Man, havent you heard of Linux? Screw Windows. I can do whatever I want with Linux.

I just sit their and watch that l33t0 guy pushed with the wave like others. Most people use Linux because they saw it as the only outlet from the Windows world. The way I saw it was all showing off to other people that there is something else free.

Then comes the new Era where Linux became more famous. You see professors uses Linux just because they heard of Linux as a new fantastic OS.

pulled from openbsd.misc:

From: Theo de Raadt <deraadt <at> cvs.openbsd.org>

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.os.openbsd.misc/83740

It speaks for itself.

cos he just spat his old one out 😉

Theo is a long term asshole, his rantings have long been a shame to the OSS community. He has no tact, doesn’t care that he has no tact, and only sees *openbsd*. All else is garbage in his eyes. Would I contemplate using Openbsd? Nope. Not after his repeated ill mannered comments. To compare Theo, McEnroe was a brilliant on a tennis court, but was an asshole. Plain and simple. Theo is the same when it comes to coding within the OSS community. Great coder, but his behaviour leaves a lot to be desired.

Linux isn’t perfect, perfect code simply does not exist, and if someone’s telling you that it does they are lying. Plain and simple. Linux is a compromise of many different things, done by many different people.

Eugenia, there really is no need for trash like this. Honestly. Of late there has been a spate of anti GPL/anti GNU/anti Linux/pro Solaris/Pro Windows/Pro BSD posts from your site, and personally, I expect a lot better. I rarely see stories bashing Windows, or bashing OS X, BSD or Solaris. You do only seem to publish bashing articles that bash Linux/GPL/GNU/FSF it seems. Why is this so? As a reader I think I have the *right* to ask. It appears that many others do, but they all of course get moderated down. If you cannot simply accept criticism, then you shouldn’t be running a site like this, that posts articles/links/stories with a increasing frequency of poor research, trouble making headlines and flame/troll bait.

Whatever troubles Linux might have, it’s a usable system, and it is stable. I’ve been using Libranet GNU/Linux for quite some time now and haven’t had much “instability”. The odd problem yes, but not instability. I do all my day to day work with it, and it works fine. Other Linux’s are similar I might add.

As to BSD, I wonder how far BSDs would have come along if they hadn’t copied the code from AT&T/USL? If it had been implemented totally from *scratch*. How good and how developed/advanced would the code be now?

Licenses are a separate issue (ie GPL vs BSD), they both have good and bad points, all valid from whatever point of view of the reader. I have my favourites, others have their favourites, and it’s all down to a variety of personal beliefs and/or morals.

If you’re going to bash GNU/GPL/FSF/RMS/Linux, then be fair and start publishing bashing articles on other things as well. Use the brush to tar all of the topics 😉

Dave

if they cant beat linux using their “get the facts”, then they have to use the “other” open source OS to discreding linux.

hehe no I know exactly what I said

I can chat using FreeBSD and it works as simple as pkg_add -r bitchx

Also I have used Redhat 6.2 Suse 6 and Slackware in my LLLL days and they weren’t as good as FreeBSD at that time.

I use FreeBSD for development thats one as well as a server.

”

With the current state of linux desktops you have to be pretty inept if you can’t get a system up and running more easily than with FBSD! Games are trickier, but cedega is looking pretty nice these days.

”

Nop you are wrong, for desktop and games.

Run FreeBSD installer if you want it as a desktop choose KDE for example

next boot ype startx.

what do you want to install firefox ?

type pkg_add -r firefox

heck you want java ?

cd /usr/ports/java/jdk14 && make

plus I do not need to go and seach for rpms and sources to compile the apps I need

I just browse my fancy little port directory or I use precompiled packages.

I know what I said. I would rather use Windows.

Also I times I find FreeBSD easier to use than Windows.

I like the documentation of it. I like the structure of it.

Your friend knows that you use linux he installs some weird distro out there. he comes to you and ask hey how can I do that. Then you come and tell him Hmmmm I dont really use that distro it must be different here.

”

come on man, if you need to resort to windows then your freeBSD setup doesn’t exactly win any points against GNU/Linux, maybe you should try Ubuntu if you want something mindbogglingly easy to install that will just work.

”

Nop I forgot to mention that I also have an iBook that has Mac OS X on it. For my resort to Windows is because I want to use Windows is specific areas where I cant on others.

Example

I use yahoo voice chat a lot. I cant find an alternative to that so I use Windows to chat.

I am aware of skype and I use it on Mac.

Did you just say netfilter is better than pf? Good God man, have you really ever sat down to use both?

You also complain about OpenBSD’s installer, there will never be one that is different as long as Theo lives – it’s the way he likes it. The same goes for rc, it is the way Theo wants it and it shall remain so.

I use Windows because there are better software made for it like my 3D CAD program. The games I play once in a while are not available for Linux. An OS is never better than the software made for it.

/Magnus

Your friend knows that you use linux he installs some weird distro out there. he comes to you and ask hey how can I do that. Then you come and tell him Hmmmm I dont really use that distro it must be different here.

Actually, most distros are remarkably similar. I’ve used quite a few and while there are some differences, it’s pretty easy to find your way around.

plus I do not need to go and seach for rpms and sources to compile the apps I need

I just browse my fancy little port directory or I use precompiled packages.

It’s exactly the same in Linux. I see also that you mention RedHat6.2…you are aware that Linux distributions have improved a lot over the past few years, right?

I don’t see a lot of objectivity from the Linux bashers…

Haven’t noticed any issues with the system on the kernel level, as a user. I don’t hate microsoft either. Linux’s development is rapid, just like most open source projects.

Whether Theo is right or not is not really the issue. He could have used better words for whatever point he was trying to make.

> Oh my, another anonymous poster. Personally, i’d like to see

> osnews.com move to a *you must have an account to post*

> method. Anyone posting anonymously is just gutless imho.

Well I for one would just stop posting. I don’t particularly want an account or to routinely use some pseudonym to post replies on a forum. If you think tying some random string of text to your net presence makes you ‘brave,’ then I think you should get out more. It certainly hasn’t improved the quality of your response, since you replied to an obvious troll with whiny flaming.

http://dot.kde.org/1030073479/1030203696/1030250106/1030251209/1030…

On the bright side, it did permit me to see that being a prolix flamer is normal for you. Pretty funny, actually.

don’t want to kiss girls!? 😉

“Unlike Linux, which is a clone of Unix”

What? First of all “Linux” is not a clone of Unix. […]

I think what he meant was that BSD is UNIX. Since it’s one of the original UNIXen around, whereas Linux is a Unix-like operating system. So he tries to reuse the old Coca Cola slogan: “can’t beat the real thing”… I’m not sure why this should be an advantage however, sounds more like some ill guided snobism.

“I think our code quality is higher, just because that’s really a big focus for us,”

Umm…right. That’s why fortune 500 companies choose either Windows or a Linux distribution to use in their workplace.

That has nothing do to with quality. As you say they often choose Windows over Linux. Does it mean it’s better than Linux? I think he is right with saying that OpenBSD’s code quality is higher. Maybe you might remember that they did a code audit for OpenBSD. Audited every single line of code in there. Nobody has done something like that for Linux and I do believe the code quality overall is better in BSD.

“De Raadt says his crack 60-person team of programmers, working in a tightly focused fashion and starting with a core of tried-and-true Unix, puts out better code than the slapdash Linux movement.”

60 people..wow that’s seems like a lot to a reader who is unfamiliar with software developement. Let’s compare that to the several thousand developers around the world contributing to open source software developement or major companies such as Novell and Red Hat who contribute their resources as well. The author also failed to mention LSB certification which promotes standards or mention that developers such as Novell, Red Hat and Mandriva (formally Mandrakesoft) are certified members.

Here the talk is not about mass, but about class. working in a tightly focused fashion is the key word and that can make a huge difference. For example how many people are working on Apple’s Safari browser? How many worked on KHTML? How come that Apple in the short time since they came out with Safari have brought KHTML much more forward and made it more standards compliant than a huge horde of programmers around the world in many more years? tight focus!.

“There’s also a difference in motivation. “Linux people do what they do because they hate Microsoft. We do what we do because we love Unix,”

The reason why Sun or Apple are typically not attractive are vendor lock-in or less support for software. For example Apple recently announced their plans to run OSX on Intel processors but to restrict OSX to hardware they sell. Also studios cannot run some software such as XSI from Softimage on OSX. There’s other reasons but I’m sure you all get my point.

I really hear that anti-M$ stuff so often from the Linux guys (which per se isn’t a bad thing, most of us Mac guys also do not sympathize with M$), but it makes them appear as if their sole motivation was being against Microsoft. I do believe that if you have a positive motivation (Doing something because you like/love it) can bring you further than a negative motivation (Doing something because you hate the other one).

Also, sorry but if you think that Linux is used more in Film Studios than Mac OS X you’ll have to adjust your world view. The few examples you can see where people really used Linux for modeling and rendering in 3D studios are just about the number of place where Linux really took over. There’s not tip of the iceberg and there’s no iceberg either. From a productivity standpoint Linux is still way behind OS X, and artsy people, like designers definitely prefer the Mac OS GUI to anything else. The big majority of creative people still work with Macs. More so ever since OS X and more so ever since Final Cut Pro, Motion and Shake was taken over by Apple. You also get Maya for the Mac etc. For the creative workstation OS X is still king of the hill.

Commercial creative software ist still vastly more available on the Mac and most of the open source stuff is available, too (I’m using GIMP and CinePaint myself on OS X).

I don’t particularly want an account or to routinely use some pseudonym to post replies on a forum.

Why? What do you have to hide?

It seems to me a lot of anonymous posters feel that being part of the “unnamed mass” gives them some credibility, as if they were the random voice of Joe Anybody. I do believe that astroturfers will in fact use this to their advantage.

I have yet to hear a single good argument in favor of anonymous posting.

Well I for one would just stop posting.

I’m not convinced this would be such a huge loss.

This way, guys like Anon-he-moos aren’t allowed to post trolls in Windows/Mac/BSD/Solaris news items

Please indicate where and when I have posted any trolls?

Just because you disagree with what I say, that doesn’t mean it qualifies as a troll. In fact, I’ve come to realize that people call me a troll when they can’t counter my arguments through logic. Of course, if you weren’t posting as an anonymous user I could probably remember which argument you weren’t able to respond to. I guess that’s one way in which posters hide behind the “anonymous” name…

FYI, except for two or three times over the past couple of years, the only times I’ve been modded down was when I replied to comments that were themselves modded down.

In any case I am strongly in favor of an account-based system for posting.

True but I’m not about to let you guys hijack OSNEWS and turn it into a PRO linux/GPL site.

You’ll recall that the original poster was asking for balance, not for OSNews to adopt an opposite bias. It is in fact true that, over the last couple of days, there have been quite a few anti-GPL, Linux-bashing stories linked on OSNews. Meanwhile, there have been virtually no linked articles that indulged in Windows or OSX bashing (or BSD bashing, for that matter).

A little honesty and objectivity, that’s all we ask for.

Yes.

You always hear Linux never GNU/Linux. Only Debian does that. It pisses RMS off you know that.

That article is by Daniel Lyons. I wonder whether Theo actually said all that.

You are right. All pigs trying to prove their point. Well the question is why are we users trying to argue on such a foolish matter as if its an OS War. We dont deserve to use an OS then.

Although I’m a GNU/Linux system administrator I kinda agree with what Theo said. Personally I also think that a highly focused core team of programmers can produce a better and higher quality code than all those “bazaar” teenage hackers all around the world. Linux can be bigger but that doesn’t mean it’s a better quality and cleaner OS than FreeBSD or OpenBSD.

For a very professional, unbiased comparison of *BSD with Linux I highly recommend reading this article

http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/rants/bsd4linux/bsd4linux1.php

“It’s terrible,” De Raadt says. “Everyone is using it, and they don’t realize how bad it is. And the Linux people will just stick with it and add to it rather than stepping back and saying, ‘This is garbage and we should fix it.'”

If the Linux devs had worked the same way as OpenBSD devs does we would still be at kernel 2.2 now. Perhaps OpenBSD has a more clean design but people wants performance and features more than that! I tried OpenBSD 3.6 recently. It couldn’t even untar a large file without X11 becoming unresponsive and the mouse jumping around. That really sucks for a modern operating system!

Doesn’t Theo always emphasize he has NO experience (he said so in an interview lately) at all with Linux?! Well, then, he’s known for being extremly arrogant, too (read the last interviews with him). The Linux kernel might not be perfect, but imho it is the best solution for the average desktop on x86 machines – where things like hardware support matter and linux is by far superior to the BSDs (at least in my experience) when it comes to hardware support – there is currently.

you need to research your crap, most of the stuff you said was false!

You are just as biased as this author is.

In my opinion, the BSD people are a larger unpaid workforce lol

Big deal, woohoo! I for one am neither impressed or won over by this guys obvious disdane for linux

he can take hith phalace and bendit round and up his cracker jam it..

Check the main function of sshd :

http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/usr.bin/ssh/sshd.c?rev=1….

And tell me if you think it’s clean .. personnaly, I would not like maintain that !

i read Mastercard has been hacked and as far as i know

they run SOlaris(which is derived from BSD)

so i think not even bsd and Solaris are very secure…

Simon Lok analyzed Linux source code and decided to dismiss it and jump on Openbsd but did he analyze Openbsd source code?

I think this is kinda good for the BSD’s as it drums up some type of marketing for them, that said, I think it shouldnt be this guy.

For one in his interview before this when asked about questions on Linux he came off as an ass, when asked about if there were parts of Linux he would like to see adopted, doesnt mean ported, adopted into BSD he said, no, while the NetBSD was honest, he said he would like to see some of the fuctionality, such as real time support, drivers etc. So your telling me that he doesnt want more divers for OpenBSD?

When asked if there is sharing he said it doesnt happen, but the NetBSD guy says it goes both ways. So which is it?

He says that Linux is just a kernal, which is true, and that OpenBSD is the whole thing, it gives him flexebility, and lets him move fast. Ok so if you make changes to product X the whole system could be effected. (I know there are some advantages to have the system as a whole.)How does that let you move faster now you have to worry about every packege when you make a change, not only that but if it does let you move faster where are all the drivers? how come you havent gotten around to having more software and a better installation?

And now this? “It’s terrible,” De Raadt says. “Everyone is using it, and they don’t realize how bad it is. And the Linux people will just stick with it and add to it rather than stepping back and saying, ‘This is garbage and we should fix it.'” But he just admited he has never ran Linux, how does he know its terrible? how does he know its so bad?

Anyways, the BSD’s should have a spokesperson that drums up sopport for them, but it should deffinetly be someone else, he’s deffinetly an ass.

As for those that want to try the BSD’s go for it, I use Linux, but I got a couple of Live BSD cd’s that I pop in to play around with, and PCBSD is looking real good.

“No some Linux distros do not have package management at all. You have to look for the source and compile then run there is no other way.

The topic was mainly about the Linux kernel. we are talking about something else now.”

Please start naming them, I’d love to hear it. Here, let me do it for ya:

Linux From Scratch.

Woops, that’s all of ’em that I’ve heard of:

Slacware: Slackpacks (.tgz)

RedHat, Mandrake, Suse, derivatives: RPM

Ubuntu, Debian, Knoppix, derivatives: .Deb

Arch: Arch Packages (.tgz but are not slackpacks, and aren’t distributed outside of repos)

I think Lycoris and Lindows are .deb. I don’t know what XandrOS uses.

Well those are just the ones I’ve used. Maybe in your grand wisdom, oh moron who can’t spell his own name, you can tell me about all these distributions that lack packages?

Now please come up with some form of unique identity and quit posting as anonymous; it’s really annoying.

@ Chris

LoL I do not have to provide a name

I can just put Jack or Chris or even moron.

@ a nun, he moos

No I am not kidding I was talking about Linux in general, however in the back of your mind you always thought I was refering to desktop which I wasnt.

back to Chris

I was talking about package management to show how scattered each distro is. Isnt it the Linux way that If you do not like one distro you create your own? yea I can just tell you hey here is a list of linux distros that do not have package management.

MyFancyLinux

LinuxIs4Losers

etc

Oh let me check distro watch and give you a list of distros that do not have package management that allows you to use it natively just like debian’s, and please do not tell me RPM because it sucks.

so lets see

Using their list on the right I will just browse to the web and search for packages

KNOPPIX

Xandros

Vector

Yoper

puppy

aLinux

You can go down that list and see yourself.

Your complaint is what? That the file is large?

I think most BSD’ers are insulted by portage actually. They’d probably be much happier with Crux or even Arch; both have something a lot more like ports.

Arch has what Ports should be: A system to easily build packages; then a package manager handles installing and removing the package. Fully source is silly and should have been a first step towards management. They should have been later accompanied by at least rudimentary binary package management. Gentoo does this too I think with ebuilds.

I think most people get mad at gentoo for assuming they have gnumake; that was the complaint I’ve heard!

Yes, because you’re replying to me and acting like I know who you are :-p.

It’s the first time I’ve ever tried to find that on distrowatch, I rarely use the site; it’s not nearly verbose enough for my tastes.

I’m sick of it because there’s about 17 other people who use it; that or you post a LOT.

You got it right:-) :

Microsoft can’t be the only operating system out there

whatever works is the best-right?

You may wish to learn how to use distrowatch. Of these distros some will lack package management:

Core, LFS, Lunar, Murix, Onebase, ROCK, Sorcerer, Source Mage, T2, TA

While Onebase’s package management system does allow for installation from source, binary packages are also available. Onebase does not belong on that list. The argument could be made that Sorceror (and therefore Source Mage and Lunar) also have a package management system that is similar in idea to Gentoo’s Portage (albeit strictly from source) which was removed from your list for reasons that you previously stated.

Point? If you are going to flame someone for a comment in a web forum, at least put some research into it 😉

Don’t pick an OS just because it’s hip, try them all and figure out which one you like that way

I did and came to the conclusion they all suck.Only some a great deal less than others.So i purchaged 3 removable HD’s besides 2 SATA HD’s an have installed SuSE 9.3 as base.The rest OpenBSD,FreeBSD,Solaris on the removable HD’s.

Brains need exercise too. Sometimes it’s nice to have the option of clicking a bunch of buttons, but once those buttons stop working, and that’s the only way to interface with an app, where do you go from there?

True,but would you have plunged into OpenBSD without having used Linux first?Once you have “mastered” the basics of OpenBSD such as getting the ports tree :” setenv CVSROOT [email protected]” + “cvs get ports”,etc, and have installed some nice wm and all the apps you could possible need,where do you go from there and what makes it at that point different from Linux?

Even with a “hand-holding” OS you can do pretty nasty things as well.

Oh well i guess you’re right when you said:“Don’t pick an OS just because it’s hip, try them all and figure out which one you like that way.”

I did and came to the conclusion they all suck.Only some a great deal less than others.So i purchaged (sic) 3 removable HD’s besides 2 SATA HD’s an have installed SuSE 9.3 as base.The rest OpenBSD,FreeBSD,Solaris on the removable HD’s.

They all suck in one way or another, I never said otherwise. It doesn’t mean you can’t find one OS you LIKE or at least tolerate. OpenBSD just sucks the least for me for doing actual work and day to day use. I still use Linux so I can play UT, use the features of a printer that there’s no support for under OpenBSD, etc.

True,but would you have plunged into OpenBSD without having used Linux first?Once you have “mastered” the basics of OpenBSD such as getting the ports tree :” setenv CVSROOT [email protected]” + “cvs get ports”,etc, and have installed some nice wm and all the apps you could possible need,where do you go from there and what makes it at that point different from Linux?

Would I have plunged into OpenBSD with out having used Linux first? There’s no way I could have known I was going to use Linux in the first place.

What makes it different? I think that’s a silly question, but I think I know what you really mean by it. The difference for me is that the apps are older and mostly very stable. There aren’t as many apps, but there are more than I would ever use or need. And almost all the crucial apps I depend on are there already, in the ports tree, or a package and I don’t have to hunt them down and build them myself often. It doesn’t spontaneously slow down, crash or just act zany, and if it is doing that, it takes a LOT less time to hunt down the problem. Generally, fixes are fast for most bugs, they just don’t sit around forgotten for years in Bugzilla. If hardware isn’t fully supported, it’s usually somewhat supported. There’s usually at least a workaround. SSH is faster, there’s very strong network performance with the card supported, and ppp is much better and more solid. I could go on forever, but I have more important things to do than dick around online all day long.

Could someone make OpenBSD look or behave like Linux and set it up so you never have to use the CLI? Sure. Why would you want to?

Oh, you don’t have to ‘master’ OpenBSD to use it.

Even with a “hand-holding” OS you can do pretty nasty things as well.

Once again, I never said otherwise. Nasty things? I was trying to tactfully say that there is too much coddling going on, rather than people going out and learning things for themselves. Because they’re lazy, or stupid, whatever. People should recognize when newbs are using software just to be ‘cool,’ and make these newbies really think about why they’re doing it. Unix and unix-like isn’t for everyone.

Oh well i guess you’re right when you said:”Don’t pick an OS just because it’s hip, try them all and figure out which one you like that way.”

Of course I am right about that. I am right about everything I said! Man, I am so conceited.

There’s usually at least a workaround.

That’s not an option for a mission critical server.

One would consult the HCL before building a mission critical server, wouldn’t one?