Theo de Raadt is a pioneer of the open source software movement and a huge proponent of free software. But he is no fan of the open source Linux operating system. “It’s terrible,” De Raadt says. “Everyone is using it, and they don’t realize how bad it is. And the Linux people will just stick with it and add to it rather than stepping back and saying, ‘This is garbage and we should fix it.‘”
Is Linux For Losers?
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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Maybe I missed it, should there be a link to a longer article?
A few of the authors comments that indicate he’s both biased and what I would say is an idiot.
“the gist being that BSD guys are a lot like Linux guys, except they have kissed girls.”
What a lame ass comment.
“Linux gets support from big hardware makers like Hewlett-Packard (nasdaq: HPQ – news – people ) and IBM (nyse: IBM – news – people ), which he says have turned Linux hackers into an unpaid workforce.”
Sorry but that’s excluded developers such as Novell and Red Hat who do pay programmers for their work. As per the GNU/GPL they shouldn’t have to pay for open source code but they are required to give back to the Linux community any additional improvements they make to an open source project, which they do.
“Unlike Linux, which is a clone of Unix”
What? First of all “Linux” is not a clone of Unix. SCO has been unsuccessful in court at proving Linux has any Unix code. Linux may be Unix like but that doesn’t mean it’s a clone (copy) of Unix. Also this comment basically generalizes all Linux OS are the same which they are not. While RPM based distributions use the same Linux commands there are distributions that differ with the tools/software offered.
“I think our code quality is higher, just because that’s really a big focus for us,”
Umm…right. That’s why fortune 500 companies choose either Windows or a Linux distribution to use in their workplace. Besides web design companies and a few advertising companies I haven’t seen a lot of OSX being used in the workplace. Where as with most typical companies Windows is the major player on the desktop (Linux typically on the server end). Windows influence is decreasing with the advances Linux has made globally and is now appearing more attractive as an alternative when compared to Windows or OSX. With post-production (visual effects, etc) studios Linux is the major player (desktop and server). Examples of films made with the help of Linux are Lord Of The Rings, Spiderman, Hulk, Star Wars, T3, etc.
“De Raadt says his crack 60-person team of programmers, working in a tightly focused fashion and starting with a core of tried-and-true Unix, puts out better code than the slapdash Linux movement.”
60 people..wow that’s seems like a lot to a reader who is unfamiliar with software developement. Let’s compare that to the several thousand developers around the world contributing to open source software developement or major companies such as Novell and Red Hat who contribute their resources as well. The author also failed to mention LSB certification which promotes standards or mention that developers such as Novell, Red Hat and Mandriva (formally Mandrakesoft) are certified members. [url]http://www.linuxbase.org/%5B/url]
“There’s also a difference in motivation. “Linux people do what they do because they hate Microsoft. We do what we do because we love Unix,”
Linux users who are former Windows users didn’t necessarily switch because they “hate” Microsoft. They switched for several reasons (ie: vendor lock-in, spyware, viruses, late fixes, etc). The reason why Sun or Apple are typically not attractive are vendor lock-in or less support for software. For example Apple recently announced their plans to run OSX on Intel processors but to restrict OSX to hardware they sell. Also studios cannot run some software such as XSI from Softimage on OSX. There’s other reasons but I’m sure you all get my point.
For help on understanding Linux alternatives for software see here [url]http://www.linuxforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=53452%5B/url]
For those who believe “one click install” or having a user friendly Control Center is not available on Linux distributions try LiveDVD (demo runs off the DVD drive) for SuSE Linux Professional 9.3 ( [url]http://www.novell.com/products/linuxprofessional/index.html?sourcei…] ), Mandriva Linux ( [url]http://www.mandriva.com/%5B/url] ), Linspire (Debian based [url]http://linspire.com/%5B/url] ).
As for TCO, etc concerns over issues such as Microsoft’s FUD campaign please feel free to read [url]http://www.novell.com/linux/truth/%5B/url]
Copied and pasted from Slashdot. You should read the article before you copy and paste it. There is no mention anywhere of linux being for losers. Nice editing.
I’m interested to see what he has to say….(Most likely beneficial for linux?) But where to find it?
how he can form such an exact openion without ever running linux in his life?
http://www.forbes.com/technology/2005/06/16/linux-bsd-unix-cz_dl_06…
I don’t have enough knowledge of the either source code for the kernel, but I do know that for the desktop user, linux is by far the best FOSS solution. I would be amazed if any BSD would recognize all the hardware automatically on my laptop like linux has. In this respect, BSD has a lot of work to do. However, PCBSD is an interesting project.
Is This Article For Generating Flame Wars?
All I have to say is Theo is an ass. He’s a terrific coder but to bash something because it has a different design principle than your stuff is stupid. Theo’s main grip is linux isn’t as clean and secure as OpenBSD. I hate to tell you Theo, the better, faster, more prevelent operating system is always going to have some quirks, their called engineering compromises. You want more features now, there”s going to be some hacks it’s inevitable software isn’t perfect. You want perfect security well you get to hang behind the curve feature wise and even speed wise. OpenBSD has piss poor I/O performance, terrible SMP scalability, and just moved to GCC 3 when linux distros are moving to 4. Software is about compromise and Theo is an ass.
Seems to like to complain and say provocative things to imply he is the best. He is not the first, and won’t be the last.
“the gist being that BSD guys are a lot like Linux guys, except they have kissed girls.”
Now what else did the interviewer say to piss him off? Had he just asked “what do you say to linux users who say bsd suX0rz?” previously? Or had he asked “What makes IBM use linux, is it because it is better?”?
Honestly, can you imagine how much this guy gets harrassed with questions about linux? “Why would I use OpenBSD over linux? ” It’s hard to answer that with diplomacy and even if you pull it off someone will still complain.
“Real men use BSD”
Come on we all know real men only use Hurd for their toaster.
Theo is obviously trolling, since he doesn’t explain his ‘view’ at all. Explain to me why Linux is bad, and I will have an objective but critical look at his points.
In fact, I have already looked at the pros and cons and I have come to the conclusion that (GNU/)Linux suits my needs better, because *BSD doesn’t support dri and ipod for my laptop. I know this has nothing to do with superiority or inferiority of either OS, which is what Theo is probably referring to, but to me these are huge disadvantages (hygiene factors, actually).
So his statement has already been falsified (which is really easy without any elaboration from his side). So shut up or explain your statement, Theo.
Btw, I know *BSD is superior in some area’s, but so is Linux.
That man sounds a little childish… my OpenBSD is better but nobody uses it, booh…
I doubt that’s going to help OpenBSD community to have such lame comments.
I promise to submit a technical article this summer. But PLEASE stop posting articles that turn OSNews into a degenerate hellhole 🙂
…..the better, faster, more prevelent operating system is always going to have some quirks, their called engineering compromises. You want more features now, there”s going to be some hacks it’s inevitable software isn’t perfect. You want perfect security well you get to hang behind the curve feature wise and even speed wise….
just me, but this can be used as an excuse for windows too 🙂
The idea that a focused and relatively small group of coders can offer a higher quality product makes sense to me and i think that same concept will help haiku.
I would be amazed if any BSD would recognize all the hardware automatically on my laptop like linux has.
Funny. Even years old OpenBSD versions detect/autoconfigure the hardware on the dozens of various configurations I use far better than any GNU/Linux distribution ever has.
OpenBSD has piss poor I/O performance,
I’d hesitate to call it “piss poor”. It’s proved to deliver more throughput on my (admittedly elderly) servers than any other OS. True, some benchmarks show that it lags overall, however.
terrible SMP scalability
Not a priority.
and just moved to GCC 3 when linux distros are moving to 4.
OpenBSD supports a variety of platforms, many of which the buggy GCC 3 didn’t (and doesn’t) work on. GNU/Linux really only supports x86/x86-64 and PPC.
Software is about compromise and Theo is an ass.
Software is about delivering the best product possible and Theo is one of the few willing to stand firm instead of caving in to cheap hacks, proprietary code, and NDAs.
WTF? Did I miss the link to the article?
> Is This Article For Generating Flame Wars?
Yes, for generating hits for news sites. 😉
Your justifications seems more to yourself than to anyone else. It looks like you are trying to convince yourself. Once again i would say, Linux has become the wh*re which everyone is trying to p*mp.
Linux is a good kernel but the whole distribution mess, big companies trying to cater their interest is making it look bad. I wish Linux guys focussed more passionately about the programming and technical stuff rather than GPL politics and i am sure there would have been a value added Linux distro from some “for profit” company and that distribution would have been popular. Today its a big f***in mess of 1000 distros and confusion.
One day gentoo rocks, another day ubuntu, yet another day kubuntu..and then slackware, debian, suse, novell, yellowdog, reddog, redhat, blackhat, suckat…chinadog, frenchcat and what not
Another mistake Linux did was to try and make it one solution fits all kind of kernel. This is the same approach Microsoft took and it bit them back in the ass. I am sure its going to boomrang in the same way on Linux. With they tried to design a cool geeky/stable/useful for programmers OS and not focussed so much on its commercialization. A programmer should love programming and leave all the publicity and politics crap out.
I’ve been attracted to trying BSD for awhile, but this complete jerk Theo De Raadt drives me away.
Linux is a proven OS, in everyting from cell phones to large servers to desktops.
And to stereotype Linux users like he did, as stereotyping any group, was completely ridiculous.
Based on this guys attitude, I seriously doubt he’s ever kissed a girl.
But this is exaktly like at least a good deal of linux hackers, or at least zealots on this page, want it.
Looks like Theo put his foot in his mouth.
If Linux is so bad why is it so stable on my cheap PCs? Why does it support all my hardware? Why do I have a full music studio out of free software that emerged within the last 2 years, after I stopped using Windows? Why can I do all my DVD/CD ripping in simple comprehensive interfaces using the latest codecs? I’ve got several excellent filesystems to choose from, each with their advantages and disadvantages over the others, but all better than what I see elsewhere, except, maybe, for JFS. I’ve got video drivers, hardware 3D accelleration, audio drivers, midi over USB drivers, drivers for my camera, USB serial, memory cards, etc. Hardware support is excellent. Security isn’t a problem, maybe not as secure as OpenBSD, but I still don’t believe all the vulnerabilities have been worked out of openssh, which is my main point of concern about security and that falls in OpenBSD’s domain.
I could go on and on about how much I love this OS. But what I love most about it is you don’t have to be a CS student at a university to use it. You can be a luser like me, working professionally in the real world, smokin bowls and hacking as I feel like it. Its stress relieving, relaxing, casual, compassionate, and anti-status quo.. which is why I like it so much.
So use what you like, but attacking my beloved Linux will only make you look like an ass.
I mostly use Linux, followed by Windows, followed by FreeBSD.
I commend OpenBSD on its security efforts and code auditing. Everyone should learn from that.
On the other hand, isn’t the “proof in the pudding”? Linux servers are reliable and secure—especially with security features such as SELinux and Execshield that Fedora Core comes with by default.
On the other hand again, to Theo’s credit, few Linux distributions take advantage of the already available security features: Execshield, grsecurity, SELinux, IBM stack smashing protection, etc.
I’ve been attracted to trying BSD for awhile, but this complete jerk Theo De Raadt drives me away.
Linux is a proven OS, in everyting from cell phones to large servers to desktops.
And to stereotype Linux users like he did, as stereotyping any group, was completely ridiculous.
Why blame BSD for Theo? Theo has nothing to do with FreeBSD, DragonflyBSD, and hasn’t had anything to do with NetBSD for years. Don’t let one man keep you from trying out BSD. BSD is bigger than Theo… Just like Linux.
Here read how he got KICKED off the NetBSD project for being an ass more than a decade ago. Thats when he decided to take all his toys home with him and create OpenBSD.
“On December 20 [1994], Theo de Raadt was asked to resign from the NetBSD Project by the remaining members of ‘core’. This was a very difficult decision to make, and resulted from Theo’s long history of rudeness towards and abuse of users and developers of NetBSD. We believe that there is no place for that type of behaviour from representatives of the NetBSD Project, and that, overall, it has been damaging to the project.
This decision was difficult to make because Theo has a long history of positive contributions to the project. He was the principal caretaker of NetBSD’s SPARC support, and has written too much code to mention.
We are certainly willing to accept (and would very much like to see) future contributions from Theo, but we believe that it is inappropriate for him to be an “official” representative of the project any longer.”
He was an ass back then and has not changed much. He is very much the arrogant-brilliant-programmer-a$$hole personality stereotype.
That’s almost two in a row. I’m really starting to agree with others that this flamebait is only posted to generate hits on the site.
Frankly, all of these so-called articles only go to prove that the agressive trolling these days is performed not by Linux advocates, but by anti-Linux ones. When was the last time and equivalent anti-MS article was posted here?
Some balance would be appreciated.
“Torvalds, via e-mail, says De Raadt is ‘difficult’ and declined to comment further.”
Its good to see Linus did not drop down to Theo’s level.
Between this and the JBoss article, I have to assume that Forbes is on an all out attack on OSS.
Have the aristocrats decided that the little people are getting a little to “uppity” with their fancy “OSS community” and such?
Isn’t this the same man that just said he has never used linux before? How would he know anything about it?
From Newsforge
Theo de Raadt: I don’t know. I have never run Linux.
http://os.newsforge.com/os/05/06/09/2132233.shtml?tid=152&tid=8&tid…
rofl
” “You know what I found? Right in the kernel, in the heart of the operating system, I found a developer’s comment that said, ‘Does this belong here?’ “Lok says. “What kind of confidence does that inspire? Right then I knew it was time to switch.” “
<flame>
From the Newsforge article http://os.newsforge.com/os/05/06/09/2132233.shtml?tid=8&tid=2
NF: The BSDs are still considered by some to be more technically correct than the Linux kernel. Linus Torvalds has said in the past that it’s not all about technology. Do you think the BSD project you work on is better technically for some or all uses than GNU/Linux (in general)?
Theo de Raadt: I don’t know. I have never run Linux.
So now he’s an expert on Linux?
</flame>
Hello,
I’ve been using GNU/Linux at home and freebsd on servers for several years. Now I also use FreeBSD on my main computer as a desktop system.
GNU/Linux looks like a systems made up of many patches. Some distros package everything without checking if it all works (like SuSE). Many years ago, I wasn’t able to recompile the kernel source of a free version of redhat. I found a stupid syntax error in their source code. Other distros on the other hand, try to make sure that the whole system is very stable, easy to update … (like Debian, Slack). But in both cases, the systems aren’t that coherent, the documentation has to be gathered from many sources, sometimes the even the man page don’t look the same, the configuration utilities aren’t really synchronized with the rest of the system, the different modules seem to ignore each other …
FreeBSD is supervised by a team that tries to make the most coherent system, that published a book that is as up to date as possbile, and even that most of the 12500 applications which are ported to FreeBSD can work on the same system with as little conflicts are possible.
So even if GNU/Linux may have more advanced drivers, even be faster and not more crash prone than FreeBSD, easier to install; in the long run, it is more difficult to maintain a production machine, a server or a desktop machine with GNU/Linux than with FreeBSD.
This being said, I think it’s sad to start insulting each other. De Raad may do a fantastic job, but that shouldn’t be a reason to ridicule people who prefere to used to more advanced system that has more recent drivers, a system they feel more confortable with; even if it’s not as well written as OpenBSD
Wherein Linus was asked how he felt about Linux’s competition. I remember he was vague and general because the interviewer asked him vague and general questions, but he wasn’t mean.
To paraphrase, he said that Linux is meant to be good for most cases and usage patterns most of the time. He wants it to be the best choice for 80%-90% of all users. Not “good enough” but actually GOOD as in useful, reliable, high performance, and worth the time and effort to switch to. His criticism of the BSD families was that they were too focused on “perfection”. He later described how perfection was the enemy of good because it leads to ignorance of what people actually need and when they need it.
So, he admitted that there are warts in Linux for a reason, and that they are sometimes unavoidable. Mind you, it was in a roundabout way, but he did imply it strongly. Allowing non-critical warts lets them improve the kernel faster. Thus, Linux moves faster and keeps up better with emerging technologies (being a corporate darling also helps — first OS to boot successfully in 64 bit mode on x86-64). Critical flaws tend to get fixed rather quickly. Now, this sounds like the Microsoft Way except the Linux team has a better definition of good, I think.
Theo de Raadt is a jerk. A brilliant jerk, but a jerk. I like OpenBSD and it serves its stated purposes quite well (though it’s no OpenVMS ;-). I also think that Net and Free are also nifty for their own reasons. They are all good Unix-ish OS’es. Theo does not need to bash other projects to improve his own, because OpenBSD can stand on its own merits. Linux, for all its merits and flaws, is popular and useful for many things here and now. It is the opensource world’s poster child, and making arguments for what SHOULD have or COULD have happened is pointless.
Finally, most BSD users I know are not as immature as portrayed in that article. I hope it is not meant to be representative of the community.
–JM
if he claims everywhere that he NEVER used, touched, smelled linux.
I can say if a movie sucks by the trailler, but i’m mature enough to acknowledge that i was wrong with some of them, so i try to at least watch most of them.
not that i’m defending linux, i rather beos or even windows as a desktop and about some years ago i switched back to BSD on my servers. I’m just calling theo a egocentric witch hunter that think he knows all the trhuth. at least READ some fucking code, there may be nice ideas there, despite the code being shitty.
http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=153049&cid=12842053
🙂
So fat kids who have never been kissed, idiots, loosers are the stereotype linux users? Lets not forget about those blacks and mexicans too….
Which is better? I think this question needs an addition: “Better for what?” FreeBSD performs better for some tasks, while Linux is the right choice for others and OpenBSD is known for its security concerns… FreeBSD or Linux? Both are good choices, although I still prefer FreeBSD…
Here’s the “proof in the pudding” you spoke about:
http://lwn.net/Articles/118251/
To quote Brad Spengler, author of grsecurity:
“Using ‘advanced static analysis’: “cd drivers; grep copy_from_user -r ./* |
grep -v sizeof”, I discovered 4 exploitable vulnerabilities in a matter
of 15 minutes. More vulnerabilities were found in 2.6 than in 2.4. It’s a pretty sad state of affairs for Linux security when someone can find 4 exploitable vulnerabilities in a matter of minutes”
“I’d really like to know what’s being done about this pitiful trend of
Linux security, where it’s 10x as easy to find a vulnerability in the
kernel than it is in any app on the system, where isec releases at
least one critical vulnerability for each kernel version.”
ROFL
Until the Linux community and the kernel developers get serious about real security, Linux is going to go the way of Windows.
This is embarrasing, every OS has it’s advantages and disadvantages. Theo stooping down to that level does not suit him, I prefer FreeBSD over Linux but have to admit Linux is great talk about usability, applications stability Linux is no less than FreeBSD or OpenBSD. I am sure that Theo has not used Linux, like Linus probably would not have used FreeBSD or OpenBSD but if Theo has not used Linux how can he comment on it. Linux kernel has improved a great deal wiht time and would conitnue to do so. These comments by Theo are so lame, I never expected a programing guru would seak like that, what do I know.
Well, I’m really skinny, use linux and my wife kisses me all the time! I must be an outsider…
Just a quick comment about a reply posted above:
All I have to say is Theo is an ass. He’s a terrific coder but to bash something because it has a different design principle than your stuff is stupid.
I agree he’s a bit of an ass, but isn’t the bashing that linux supporters do against windows exactly because it has ‘a different design principle’? Sorry, but your comment is not justified at all!
Theo de Raadt did not say Linux is for losers.
Theo’s legitimate concerns are not with the specifics of Linux, as he has not examined or used Linux itself. His legitimate concerns are with some of the design aspects of Linux that differ from how he and other OpenBSD members have implemented OpenBSD.
Take the whole article with a grain of salt, and don’t get too stressed out about it.
Linux is a unix, just like the BSDs. Both Linux and the BSDs undergo substantial structural changes in major components just about every year, thus the valid complaints for one year are non-issues in the next…as long as you agree on the changes. Theo often does not agree with changes in Linux…but has only limited knowledge of Linux so his comments are not from a deep understanding of the specific details. Does this make them invalid? Not necessarily…just suspect.
Ok, it’s kinda fair that Theo trounces on Linux for poor security but is it really fair for him to do the same for Windows. For all we know, Windows might be a lot more secure than Linux and I don’t see how he would know any better considering it is close source.
“Theo de Raadt is a jerk. A brilliant jerk, but a jerk.”
Yep. As such, people should take what he says in that context.
I have friends who are jerks. I adjust to meet them at that level and do not expect them to break down and be gushing with sensitivity. If they say something nice, it’s almost always said along with something nasty.
(Good comments btw…just replying to this one part for the benifit of others who may not know of Theo’s rep.)
Why should someone listen to a guy, requesting you to calculate partition sizes manualy with a calulatur during installation of his operating system? Damnit: Every computer is a very capable and expensive calculator. It was created exactly for the purpose to save you from such dull task like calculating parition boundaries. The operating system I am talking about was OpenBSD 3.5. After that experience I just can not take Theo serious anymore.
Btw: Really do not know, why Theo the Rat tries to split the community permanently.
Btw2: Everyone who has looked into the source code of OpenSSH once, just can laugh about any “Code Quality” statement made by Theo.
Lets see my SuSE distro is easy to use for a ex-windows user, well I still game on windows show me a user freindly BSD & I will look at it.
He needs to realize it all comes down to just one thing: the license. I don’t care how much better he thinks BSD is, the license is the reason Linux has more support. Complain all you want about the “viral” nature of the GPL, but it is the reason Linux has the support that BSD doesn’t have.
If you are a developer, do you want your hard *free* work to then be used by another company in a proprietary, closed-source product? Of course not. As just one example, the BSD folks worked hard to build a TCP/Ip stack which Microsoft then took and integrated to fill an important gap in their product.
Similarly, companies aren’t thrilled abou the GPL either, but at least it puts them all on level ground. The BSD license means that some will give while others just take.
I know a number of programmers like that.
In fact, I used to have a boss like that and I am sooo glad I don’t work with him anymore.
If I were to try a BSD, I’d try NetBSD.
I like Fedora Core 3 and will be installing FC4 this weekend.
Theo never said Linux is for losers. And he’s right about the code quality anyway. A lot of the code in Linux simply blows. That’s the price you pay for using the bazaar model. FWIW, Linux has become way too mainstream to be attractive to hardcore geeks. Any random bozo can pop a SuSe DVD into his computer and start using Linux. The rest of us are running less known operating systems and keep our geeky status. Kissing girls? Who cares about that.
OpenBSD is not even on the same level as GNU/Linux. GNU/Linux is an enterprise operating system, with enterprise features. OpenBSD still has trouble running on SMP, and can’t run on PPC64 or Itanium architectures.
In reality there is no comparision between *BSD and GNU/Linux, except on low-end servers or the desktop, and GNU/Linux still is better.
I hear alot of people claim that Microsoft uses the BSD TCP/IP stack; however, has this ever been substantiated by Microsoft?
Perhaps if anyone knows drobbins, he can provide some input?
“You get shouted down by all the sheeple.”
And how is that different from getting shouted down here by Mac fanatics, Windows fanatics, BeOS fanatics, etc?? Welcome to the internet.
Here we go with the flame bait…
“These companies used to have to pay to develop Unix. They had in-house engineers who wrote new features when customers wanted them. Now they just allow the user community to do their own little hacks and features, trying to get to the same functionality level, and they’re just putting pennies into it,” De Raadt says.
I agree with this statement… Unfortunatelly, 1000’s of developers working on linux, as someone pointed out on a previous post, does not translate to a useable and/or secure product. Many have been the examples of missed opportunities because of Linux Community’s inability or just plain refusal to listen to the user community (non-programmers) on requested features. Then we bitch and moan about companies like RH, Novell and IBM having so much control of the direction of Linux software.
FOSS as a distributed development model seems to work but as a business, that’s where it fails to meet expectations and will eventually catch up with it’s products when their software fails to be considered for mission critical functions because of it’s inability to cope with enduser demands.
just plain refusal to listen to the user community (non-programmers) on requested features.
What features are you talking about, anything specific?
it works for me, i do not care about marketing trends or desktop fashion, i just want something to work without scams, viruses & worms, and draconian EULAs that include long strings of numbers & letters for product keys and product registration crapola…
I’m tired of the need to answer to flame baits with arguments. There is nowhere to go from this kind of discussion, just like putting any other OS against Windows. Everyone by now should’ve got to the point of understanding the drawbacks of each OS they experienced, this kind of talk which Theo also did is the kind of stuff that mature IT professionals shouldn’t get into. It looks like kids in school comparing each other’s father, saying which is stronger, or has a better car… Is there a need for him to do this? He’s so good dodging questions sometimes, why doesn’t he do it everytime? Every OS is a work in progress, there are problems in all, and the community gathered around each one is working to solve them to make it better. Why is there a need for making something look better by bashing something else?
BSD users kiss girls? But it looks like they need to say it… why?
🙂
Too numerous to list… But recall the whole debate with the GNOME Desktop guys and their reluctance to include any feature that was not proposed and implemented by its own programmer.
Another example is the kernel debates everytime a major release comes out as to what features make it and which don’t.
“sour grape” is very an appropriate word to describe these cooments.
I got nothing against *BSD, i just want to say this article is crap and that guy is an ass. Linus did the right thing by saying he is “difficult” and refusing any more comments.
Also the article says Linux is a unix clone. I am not sure what they mean by clone, but as we all know, the linux kernel was originally written independantly and completely separatly from unix.
And just for the fun of it, as if unix didnt have any “interesting” comments in source code:
ttp://cloanto.com/logoff/
I guess Dennis Ritchie must be a complete incompetent idiot who doesnt know how to program…
Unfortunatelly, 1000’s of developers working on linux, as someone pointed out on a previous post, does not translate to a useable and/or secure product
Feel free to explain why you think according to your knowledge the developers of “the Linux” community hasn’t taken security initiatives,without quoting others.I would like to see your very technical view on the matter,for instance why Linux is so insecure.Thought so,you can’t.
Many have been the examples of missed opportunities because of Linux Community’s inability or just plain refusal to listen to the user community (non-programmers) on requested features.
Well i appears to be likely that most *BSD users who troll here haven’t used Linux at all or seek comfort at *BSD for their inabillity to succeed with Linux.
I can hardly believe that Mr de Raadt has really said what appears to be said in this article.If you believe 50% of what the media says you believe still to much.Other than that believing is good for religeous people with all respect but i think in facts in.
…about the comment in the kernel code cracks me up. I put wiseacre comments in my code all of the time, intermingled with long comments about the process or function the code is about to perform along with brief descriptions of the reasons for doing what I am doing. My coworkers like to review my code because it is both amusing to read my comments, but at the same time my code acts as its own documentation.
So what if a coder put “does this belong here?” in the code!! We all encounter those kind of doubts even after lengthy design sessions and modeling… In some cases it will be obvious, in others there will ALWAYS be some doubt because the change might be good if the future moves in one direction, or problematic if it moves in another.
Sorry for the rant. That one just irritated me.
Linux is becoming so much like the republican party – they don’t want you to hear how bad Linux has gotten. and they don’t want you to hear how poor developers and engineers are getting because of open source.
We’re all ears. Go ahead. [puts elbows on table and chin on fists…waiting]
It’s easy to call someone closed minded. I doubt that you can get beyond the name calling and produce some substance. Keep in mind that it should have some substance that is beyond what other operating systems suffer from…or your point will be seen as simple hand waving. Expect tit for tat.
The world is full of blowhards who mistake their opinions for the laws of nature. They may be brilliant, accomplished people, but no less blowhards for it. It may make them worse, if anything, since, being right in some things, they will think themselves right in all things. Furthermore, being right, they don’t have to be fair… or kind. No weak-minded sentiments for them!
I don’t care how smart and accomplished he is. Nor do I care what forums he manages to get into, Mr. De Raadt is in full blowhard mode here. There’s nothing to discuss since he’s ‘right’, so I say “thank you for sharing.” Now let’s move on to the next topic.
I agree.
I think that it depends on what you’re after. sure Windows and OSX aree pretty lame when compared to Linux or BSD software, but remember: it is an end user OS, not an industrial strenth OS and can’t even run on mainframes. and certainly, the technology underneath it is kind of hokey, I think. I mean if you want to do real stuff, with a real computer then you should use Linux or one of the BSDs, because you can modify the source. nobody really does anything serious with Linux – there aren’t any businesses that use it to make money, and people generally aren’t enthusiastic about it. technical advantages matter too – look at how OSX is technically better than Windows, and has been sold to an elite group. in terms of Linux, yes it is better than BSD technically, so it will therefore take over BSD probably. an end user OS is also the same as an OS you can put on servers, except that it’s not as good – otherwise it’s the same.
Perspective is important!
You guys take this stuff way too seriously for your own good.
I have no problems with Windows/Mac/BSD/BeOS/Solaris fanatics – it’s healthy to listen to their side of the computing world.
In other words, you’re biased. Well, at least you don’t try to hide it!
BTW, there are plenty of anti-Linux comments in Slashdot threads. But since they are usually trolls or flamebait they get modded down.
i can feel the jealousy radiating from him….
that is ALL i get from what he is saying, he should just break down into a screaming fit tantrum about how his OS is better and he should have all those devleopers back….
While I agree with what Theo said (“It’s terrible”, “Everyone is using it, and they don’t realize how bad it is.”, “This is garbage and we should fix it.”), The BSDs are no better.
i am going back to windows or at least hop over to apple while they are still ppc
nobody really does anything serious with Linux – there aren’t any businesses that use it to make money, and people generally aren’t enthusiastic about it.
This is completely false and you know it. Counter-example abounds: just take Google – they’re making a lot of money with Linux, and you can’t say that they’re not doing something “serious” with it.
technical advantages matter too – look at how windows is technically better than OSX, and has taken the market over.
This has nothing to do with technical superiority. In fact, most people will agree that OSX is superior to Windows – most people except die-hard MS fanboys and astroturfers, that is.
does Theo have room to talk?
i tried OpenBSD at v 3.3 (and other versions). it was OK, but the default desktop was terrible looking. terrible fonts. and several packages and ports were broken. i hear some of this was fixed in 3.4.
for what it’s worth, i have run into very few broken linux packages (from various distros).
> Based on this guys attitude, I seriously doubt he’s ever kissed a girl.
Doesn’t Theo kiss guys? I vaguely recall someone telling me that he likes males.
Theo isn’t an idiot; he’s socially retarded. I doubt very much if he cares if you want to try OpenBSD. If you select your technical solutions based primarily on the personality of the lead developer then you’re likely not going to use it on anything noteworthy. From his perspective, you not using OpenBSD probably equates to one less whiny guy asking how to run Doom through the linux syscall layer, or how to setup networking.
“Just by the fact that we have Mac, Windows and BeOS guys hanging out here. You never find these guys on Slashdot or LinuxToday.”
What? You can’t be serious. Slashdot has hordes of Mac fanatics and quite Windows ones as well. Go into a Mac thread over there, criticize Apple and watch what happens to you. And despite what OSnews readers think, there are an awful lot of Windows users at Slashdot who will also engage in flame wars.
“I have no problems with Windows/Mac/BSD/BeOS/Solaris fanatics – it’s healthy to listen to their side of the computing world.”
Actually the point was that fanatics of any type are not really a good thing, but that they exist for all operating systems.
“Linux is becoming so much like the republican party – they don’t want you to hear how bad Linux has gotten. and they don’t want you to hear how poor developers and engineers are getting because of open source.”
Dude, this could apply to any open source project if one is not happy with the direction it’s moving in or thinking its missing a particular feature, but at least in open source there’s discussion about the various projects in open forum. With closed source, you don’t even get to expres an opinion to them. They do what they’re going to do and really don’t care if you like it or not. Somebody else will buy it even if you won’t.
Is there really any point at all to internet forums if not for the flame wars and the trolls? How much sensible discussion goes on anyway?
There this should make every happy
Don’t discredit everything this guy says. I think BSD is actually better-designed than Linux from an OS theory point of view.
Here are some concrete reasons why:
(1) Linux’s loadable kernel module feature is great, but it is also the least stable part of the whole OS. Modules which don’t clean up after themselves before being unloaded can leave the OS in a strange “defunct” state, causing all sorts of erratic behavior. For example, a kernel module can crash, but the OS can still remain online. This often leads module writers to “not mind a crash here or there.” In most OSes, any sort of crash in kernel space means the system goes down, so any bugs leading to them are showstoppers and must be ironed out.
(2) Unloading kernel modules is very buggy. Admittedly, in 2.6 kernel developers recognized this and turned off module unloading by default, but this is sometimes unavoidable. For example, because most modules don’t pick up suspend/resume calls from laptops, the only way to do a proper suspend/resume cycle is to unload modules of the related devices, and reload them on resume. Also very bad. (Admittedly, I don’t know how suspend/resume works on BSDs, if at all… but Apple got it to work somehow with Darwin, I know that much).
(3) Better theories are employed, rather than the “most popular” stuff or “whatever gets written by volunteers”. So, for example, FreeBSD scales up a lot better, especially under heavy network load. Disk I/O performance is better. And more than anything else, though Linux may be stable, BSD is definitely yet more stable.
(4) Fragmentation of distros and package management. I like choice, but the hard truth is we have our own kind of dependency hell in the Linux world. It’s not good enough to say “My package installs on Linux.” You have to say “Redhat Linux” or “Slackware Linux” or “Debian Linux” or “Linspire” or whatever. The BSD ports system is more predictable.
(5) Better security audits (especially OpenBSD).
As for a little personal story, I’ve been running Linux on an Averatec 3250. I am sure most of this hardware wouldn’t even work on BSD, but guess what: I ain’t stable. Here are predictable ways I can crash my OS:
(1) If I restart my XServer and then try to run a DRI application (like glxgears) I hardlock. This is a bug somewhere between the DRI.sf.net and unichrome.sf.net projects.
(2) If I suspend my machine with a Netgear WG511 (prism54) card still inserted, my machine won’t resume when I come back.
(3) If I eject my Netgear WG511 without downing the interface (ifconfig eth1 down), I hard lock. Sometimes, I can’t down the interface because it reports that the interface is “busy”.
(4) My RAlink rt2500 can’t be suspended without being downed, or the kernel will infinitely tell me that “wlan0 is in use (usage_count=1)”
(5) If I use an external 20GB hard drive via a PCMCIA IDE adapter, I must use the ide_cs module. This module works most of the time, but sometimes after long periods of write activity to the drive, it will “lose interrupt”, my kernel will take over my CPU (100% utilization in kernel mode), and my only option will be to unload the ide_cs module (can’t umount the drive or anything). When I try to unload it, it says it’s “busy” so I do a forced removal. This stops the kernel mode 100% usage, but makes it so it is impossible for me to continue using the drive without a full reboot.
So, though the hardware may be “supported,” it definitely is not always stable.
He’s a longtime Microsoft schill and FUDster; and I’ll bet he’s printing Theo’s comments way out of context. OpenBSD & Linux certainly have different design philosophies, but I can’t imagine the likes of Theo or Linus (or even Bill Gates!) publicly calling a rival operating system “Garbage”.
Anyways they may look simular, but it’s a comparison between apples & avacado’s. I’d call OpenBSD -the one- for security concious server farmers, but “Hardcore geeks only” need apply (in fact I’d have difficulty thinking of OpenBSD & Linux as “rival” operating systems. FreeBSD & Linux maybe…)
Let de Raadt look at himselfs first.
The world isnt run on secure software, nobody wants it, we want tools and if possible more stable than windows.
I don’t get it. Why do people always feel the need to start arguing about stupid stuff. I use Windows for games, linux as a desktop and openbsd as a router. Some software is just better at there own little things. All this areguing about “Real men use BSD” is just dumb ok. Software is Software, a tool to be used for whatever is best.
thanks alot 😉
“the gist being that BSD guys are a lot like Linux guys, except they have kissed girls.”
Kissing your mother doesn’t count…
Software is Software, a tool to be used for whatever is best.
Are you implying Linux isn’t the best for eveything???
(4) Fragmentation of distros and package management. I like choice, but the hard truth is we have our own kind of dependency hell in the Linux world. It’s not good enough to say “My package installs on Linux.” You have to say “Redhat Linux” or “Slackware Linux” or “Debian Linux” or “Linspire” or whatever.
At least you don’t generalize in this part of your response.
The BSD ports system is more predictable.
Which of the BSD’s you have in mind?What is a bit annoying is when one distro fucks up suddenly it’s *Linux* this *Linux* that.
Don’t discredit everything this guy says. I think BSD is actually better-designed than Linux from an OS theory point of view.
What facts does he have to bring forward i ask you.He doesn’t scientifically *prove* neither do you.At least you try to sum some advantages and less heresay.I might as well say don’t generalize Linux.Or do you think hardened-gentoo,Adamantix (Trusted-Debian),Open Wall Linux to name a few aren’t distros with security in mind just as OpenBSD appears to be?
Better theories are employed, rather than the “most popular” stuff or “whatever gets written by volunteers”
All who contribute code to the varies *BSD projects are full-time employed by the project,and not volunteers?
(1) If I restart my XServer and then try to run a DRI application (like glxgears) I hardlock. This is a bug somewhere between the DRI.sf.net and unichrome.sf.net projects.
Somewhere?Where? How would you know?Let me guess,heresay.
Discussion of issues with Linux (esp. modules) and mixed results. BSD not working at all on some hardware also mentioned.
“So, though the hardware may be “supported,” it definitely is not always stable.”
Thnanks for the detailed and thoughtful post.
As for a little personal story, I’ve been running Linux on an Averatec 3250. I am sure most of this hardware wouldn’t even work on BSD, but guess what: I ain’t stable. Here are predictable ways I can crash my OS:
As a coincidence, I also run Linux (Kubuntu) on an Averatec 3250HX (very nice little machine, btw) – if you don’t mind, I’d be interested in hearing more about your experiences. Note, however, that I haven’t encountered quite the same bugs as you, so it may be a question of which distro/kernel you use.
(1) If I restart my XServer and then try to run a DRI application (like glxgears) I hardlock. This is a bug somewhere between the DRI.sf.net and unichrome.sf.net projects.
I don’t have this problem here. I use xorg, so this might be the issue – unless there are some specific steps to follow reproduce the bug…can you give me a step-by-step example?
My problem with the display so far is that I can only use 1024×768, and not any smaller resolutions (or higher ones, but that’s because 1024×768 is the maximum…)
(2) If I suspend my machine with a Netgear WG511 (prism54) card still inserted, my machine won’t resume when I come back.
I’ve heard about this problem, however since I only use the built-in wireless adapter I haven’t experienced it. Is there a reason why you use a separate WiFi card instead of the built-in adapter? (Performance?) I’m wonder if this isn’t a hotplug issue…
(3) If I eject my Netgear WG511 without downing the interface (ifconfig eth1 down), I hard lock. Sometimes, I can’t down the interface because it reports that the interface is “busy”.
See above (hotplug issue, perhaps).
(4) My RAlink rt2500 can’t be suspended without being downed, or the kernel will infinitely tell me that “wlan0 is in use (usage_count=1)”
I thought the suspend scripts deactivated network interfaces by default? I know on mine this isn’t an issue. Actually, the bug I encountered is a bit different. If my network card is up when I suspend, it will not come back when I resume. I added a “Reset Wireless Network” button on my panel (a very simple script that simply does a “sudo ifdown ra0 && sudo ifup ra0” then plays a sound) so it’s not a big deal. This is when using the rt2500 module – with ndiswrapper the network comes back on by itself (but then I can’t use the nifty raconfig utility!).
(5) If I use an external 20GB hard drive via a PCMCIA IDE adapter, I must use the ide_cs module. This module works most of the time, but sometimes after long periods of write activity to the drive, it will “lose interrupt”, my kernel will take over my CPU (100% utilization in kernel mode), and my only option will be to unload the ide_cs module (can’t umount the drive or anything). When I try to unload it, it says it’s “busy” so I do a forced removal. This stops the kernel mode 100% usage, but makes it so it is impossible for me to continue using the drive without a full reboot.
Okay, this one is pretty bad. I’m happy you told me, because I was planning on getting an external drive. This has motivated me to get a USB drive instead of a PCMCIA-based one (in any case, that will make it easier to share among my various computers). Have you tried with a newer kernel?
I’m curious, did you ever get Sleep (Suspend-to-Ram) working? Hibernate (Suspend-to-Disk) works great, but I wouldn’t mind using Sleep sometimes. Actually, Sleep works, it’s just that I haven’t found a way to resume from it without rebooting!
Other than that, I’m quite happy with my purchase – wireless mobile computing is very cool, and so is DVD-writing! Yay!
If you can find a way to play battlefield 2 on linux and use the hardware to its fullest without emulation, let me know.
Wine/WineX/Cedega is not an emulator. Just thought you should know.
Yes, they are emulators, unless you want to get all geeky and technical about it. It’s the same thing to the end user.
“the gist being that BSD guys are a lot like Linux guys, except they have kissed girls.”
Well BSD’ers can kiss my a… [Eh? What? Oh, sorry].
The moderators inform me that the remark I was about to make is unacceptable because it is not sufficiently crude and boorish for this thread, which started low and is sinking fast.
> I’d rather have this community on OSNEWs than any “mutual
> admiration society” who hang out on LinuxToday or SlashDot.
> Infact LinuxToday and SlashDot are more like Fox News
> because you’re never allowed to voice any criticism to
> Linux. You get shouted down by all the sheeple.
Slashdot is populated mostly by Windows users. Yes, if you say something that offends the sensibilities of one of the parties, just like here, you’ll find a pointless flamewar between factions of typically-ignorant cheerleaders. If there’s any difference between OSNews and Slashdot it’s that Slash’s interface is slightly less obnoxious, and Slashdot is run by enough people that they duplicate-post their flamebait articles. There are probably more knowledgeable people posting on Slashdot than OSNews, but since there are also more idiots it’s only slightly more useful to read the comments of the typical Slashdot article.
What you can do here, since there’s no real moderation system here, is say a lot of stupid, simply incorrect things and have anyone bothering to read the comments maybe read them. Slashdot’s moderation system is mostly useless at promoting quality to the top, but it does succeed in pushing some of the crap to -1.
> Just by the fact that we have Mac, Windows and BeOS guys
> hanging out here. You never find these guys on Slashdot or
> LinuxToday. LinuxToday never even posts your comments if
> they flame Linux.
It’s rare for a computer-related discussion at Slashdot to not include a flamewar or six between operating system zealots. I have no idea about LinuxToday, and I don’t intend to educate myself about their policies.
> Just by the fact that we have Mac, Windows and BeOS guys
> hanging out here. You never find these guys on Slashdot or
> LinuxToday. LinuxToday never even posts your comments if
> they flame Linux.
No, it’s usually pretty stupid and pointless. That I’ve bothered to read the fruitless ramblings of morons on Internet forums for so many years tells me that I should probably travel more.
> Eugenia, don’t change a thing!. Keep posting articles that
> show what a house of cards the linux community and
> business is built on.
I’m sure that she’ll keep posting obvious flamebait. Flamebait attracts more comments. More comments attract more readers. More readers = more page hits = larger ego boost. Just like Slashdot, only the page hits are a good source of revenue for OSDN in that case.
OSNEWS the Boulevard press of Operating Systems. Honestly i don’t know why they even bothered to put it up here … reimnds me of THE Sun (English trash newspaper) or Bild (german eqivalent) – badly researched sensationalist headlines and articles just to attract readers.
I don’t know why there’s 108 comments about this; you people have way too much time. This is just plain sour grapes, and if he’s talking about operating systems, then OpenBSD must suck badly as well because it uses a lot of the same software you find in any Linux distribution or Unix.
As for code quality, when OpenBSD can handle multi-processors as well as Linux can then he can give us all a call. When has there ever not been a comment in a piece of code with the words “Should this be here?”. It’s called thinking, using your brain and writing things down for other programmers to follow. Theo didn’t make that comment on the quality of Linux code, but it’s just silly nonetheless.
Yes, I know Theo has probably been taken out of context but he often brings it upon himself with some silly inflammatory comments. Linus Torvalds called it right when he labelled him difficult.
It’s called spending your free time saying inflammatory things on forums in order to feel intellectually superior to the people that respond. Yes, it’s a fairly strange world that trolls live in.
Hehehehe… I think he’s correct. Windows is similar in that it’s users also behave this way. But don’t worry, OS X is coming.
You know we BSDers need a guy like that. We need marketing. I think what he said is good. It will get people curious about BSD in general and OpenBSD specificly.
Yes, they are emulators,
No they are not, they’re API layer translators. It’s important to make the distinction because the performance hit is much, much less than with emulation. With some games (especially OpenGL ones) the performance is almost on par as when running native (WarCraft III was a good example).
unless you want to get all geeky and technical about it. It’s the same thing to the end user.
It’s not about getting geeky or technical, it’s about being accurate and truthful. And it’s definitely NOT the same thing to the end user, as performance under emulation sucks.
Theo de Raadt: I know Linux.
Linus : Show me.
lol
http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/sys/arch/mac68k/mac68k/ma…
that poor old crazy a$$ guy that switched from linux should look at this. search for does this belong. i wonder what he will switch to next after he sees that comment in openbsd.