Home > Debian > Vendors Team On Debian-Based Enterprise LinuxVendors Team On Debian-Based Enterprise Linux Thom Holwerda 2005-07-08 Debian 61 CommentsSources close to Mandriva, Progeny and Turbolinux say the trio of companies will be announcing a new enterprise Linux distribution based on Debian Linux at the LinuxWorld event in San Francisco in August.About The Author Thom HolwerdaFollow me on Twitter @thomholwerda 61 Comments 2005-07-08 12:49 pm I hope they keep it Debian-ish…Hopefully Ian got what he wanted and a super cool distro will come out of it! I am sure the lycoris buyout figures into this as well…Here is hoping for something sweeeet…. 2005-07-08 12:55 pm What happened to Bruce Perens Userlinux? Which was suppose to be the business Debian distro? 2005-07-08 1:36 pm They are working on it, and actually there might be some Userlinux news coming in a week or two too(?). See Peren’s message at: http://lists.userlinux.com/pipermail/discuss/2005-July/007341.html 2005-07-08 3:25 pm segedunumThey are working on it, and actually there might be some Userlinux news coming in a week or two too(?). See Peren’s message at: http://lists.userlinux.com/pipermail/discuss/2005-June/007338.htmlAnd there’s very few messages on the list in June for what is still a developing distribution, basically because a lot of people have left and set up their own little enterprise distributions or went to use something that works without the bull.I think it’s become clear that UserLinux was, and is, full of hot air. The customers and users Perens supposedly had queuing up have never materialised, and people have worked out that there’s simply no difference at all between UserLinux and other distributions.Distributors are simply not looking at Windows Server, looking at how people are locked in from desktop to server now (Active Directory, Exchange etc.) and producing an open, cheaper and better version of what Microsoft has done with Windows to totally consolidate Linux’s position.This new YADED (Yet Another Debian Enterprise Distribution) isn’t going to make a blind bit of difference to that, and I’m just wondering when people are going to see it after all these years. Ya ded – I like that one, and adequately sums these distributions up. Mandrake might make something out of it as they already have a reasonable business, but this isn’t going anywhere soon. 2005-07-08 12:55 pm Its Debian GNU/Linux, it’s what they want to be called, i think you should respect that. 2005-07-08 1:00 pm IceCubedY.A.U.L.Yet another United Linux 2005-07-08 1:07 pm thomasUnited Linux is dead since Caldera (SCO) is not so friendly with its partners.But it looks like United Linux with Mandrake instead of Suse.I wonder if this means that future desktop release of Mandriva will be Debian based. 2005-07-08 1:20 pm Yet, yet more united 😉 2005-07-08 1:06 pm CharAznableA Debian based enterprise server distribution with commercial support would actually fill a niche that is pretty much empty. In the enterprise space, pretty much everything is Red Hat/rpm based. 2005-07-08 1:14 pm ankitmalikI would love to see the ease of Mandriva CC with the Debian Packaging System….IMHO Debs are better than RPMs… 2005-07-08 3:52 pm Per package cryptographic signatures such as GPG signatures embedded in RPMs aren’t possible with Deb packages. As such in this aspect Deb packages are inferior. There’s also no way to track when Deb packages have been installed. You’re probably thinking of the debian packaging policy when you spouted that Deb packages are better than RPMs. 2005-07-08 5:21 pm so do you really think there is no security as far as apt/dpkg/deb is concerned… tell me you dont believe this? Let me gues you was reading the redhat book what is it… maximum rpm and believed all of it including the part where it said that debs are insecure right?seriously? just wondering… 2005-07-09 3:17 am Where did I say that apt/dpkg/deb have no security? I didn’t mention APT as I was commenting on features that RPM packages have that Deb is missing. The fact that APT can have a signed list of MD5 sums for a repository wasn’t relevant to my comment. Being able to individually verify packages independently of a repository is a useful feature. 2005-07-09 9:43 am YAR4DYet Another Retard 4 debs 2005-07-08 1:14 pm Forget the RPM distros.Debian is the king! 2005-07-09 9:44 am YAR4DYet Another Retard 4 debs 2005-07-08 1:18 pm csmallI can understand why two may come together to create a product. But why three? Is it for support resources? Capital? Devel and research? Are two not enough? 2005-07-08 1:19 pm dukeinlondonTo me Debian is the only distro out there that provides everything to create a true Linux platform. It doesn’t means a single distro but a practical set of standards that make it easier for all to move to linux.So far, distros have created a confusing environment that makes it hard tp [rovide commercial support for Linux.Still need to see what that will mean in real terms though and whether they will be able to federate the other debian based distros around a comon core. 2005-07-08 1:19 pm There have been many attempts like this over the years. It doesn’t work! 2005-07-08 1:34 pm It might work this time, and I don’t think it is a bad idea at all.Being Debian based means most of the hard work is already done: they can quickly build a common distribution and then go sell the “Enterprise Service”, which is where the money really is (if there is money, that is).And they are not really competing: Turbolinux will cater for Asia; Man*****, for Europe; ***driva, for South America; and Progeny, for the US. 2005-07-08 1:20 pm i would like to see Mandrake & SuSE both dump RPM for .deb & use apt to install & update packages using common mirrors… 2005-07-08 1:22 pm thomasThat would be very interesting if they could get canonical (Ubuntu) in this thing.That would really create a tremendous debian alternative to rpms distros. 2005-07-08 1:33 pm csmallIan does not seem to fond of Ubuntu. 2005-07-08 1:40 pm LumberghYou might as well suggest that Bill Gates get involved. There’s no reason for Ubuntu to get involved. 2005-07-08 2:03 pm thomasYou are right that’s exactly the same…Canonical may share the will of developing a Debian based distro dedicated to entreprise, can’t they ?What’s the difference between canonical and the other partners !? 2005-07-08 2:19 pm LumberghThe difference is that this is a server-based distro developed by a bunch of ankle-biters that need to pool their resources.Ubuntu is primarily a deskto- based distro that has no need for these guys. Look at the top story of the front page. 2005-07-08 1:22 pm vhogemannDebian, being as conservative as it is, makes a stable, rock-solid foundation for new distribuitions.And since Stable rarely changes, commercial vendors won’t have to worry about library versions, and dependencies, when they target Debian-based distribuitions!Vanilla Debian is trully a great distribution, and I hope it would become the “de facto” NIX Standart Base. 2005-07-08 1:31 pm HarbinjerThis might work becuase its Debian. Debian is a great platform for this, and if it keeps it dedication to EXTREMELY thorough testing that it’s had, its a perfect match for enterprise. I would say that Debian has been enterprise grade since before the term was ever applied to Linux distros.As for Ubuntu, this isnt’ quite their thing, cause they’re more focused on smaller customers. But basically if done right, they could very well support each other, in a symbiotic way. They could also end up getting more partners, and cooperating distros, cause Debian is the solid base that has spawned many other distros. 2005-07-08 2:01 pm yea i dont see ubuntu getting involved in such a business/enterprise based distro…i mean technoically you have mandrake/conenctiva/lycoris and turbo linux and progeny… I would hope that would be enough to crank out a awesome enterprise class distro. If linspire was smart they would jump on the thought but I DOUBT either side wants the other but it is a thought….Xandros would be interesting since they have a AWESOME distro but probably not the mindshare that they should have….very interesting news tho…did IAN already know about this, has mandrake and ian been warming us up to the idea, between Ians statement about a commercial debian distro, connectiva and the problems with rpm and how apt might help, mandrake buying up lycoris, and so forth… I am thinking this has been int he works a while… 2005-07-08 2:17 pm See the latest announcement about the Ubuntu Foundation to see how serious Ubuntu and Canonical are about taking on the enterprise. Keep in mind, it has never been a desktop only distro. 🙂 – Jeff 2005-07-08 2:20 pm Ubuntu is a fine product, but why recreate repositories that have been proven for years? And why does it take $10M and large staff to do work that some one-man teams are doing out there (Mepis for example)? Just install Debian proper, you won’t be disappointed. If you need a noobie way of installing, give http://www.debianpure.com a try. 2005-07-08 2:32 pm LumberghYou’re confused. Ubuntu is a lot more than just slapping packages together and calling it a day. And it’s a lot easier to package together a KDE based distro than a Gnome based one. There’s a reason that Pat stopped packaging Gnome.Building all of KDE from SVN is trivial, Gnome is not. 2005-07-08 2:38 pm debianpure?whats so great about that? is it needed? anyone tried it? 2005-07-08 2:48 pm saterdaiesDoes anyone else find it weird that Mandriva and Turbolinux, both RPM-based distro makers, are talking about making a Debian based enterprise distro? That would mean two completely seperate distros for consumer/corportate in their companies. Progeny, founded by Ian Murdock, has the easiest time here as they already use Debian.More importantly, which desktop will they use? Turbolinux and Mandriva both use KDE, but Progeny uses Gnome.Plus, this isn’t new. As the article points out, UnitedLinux was much the same concept. And UnitedLinux didn’t have to face off against Ubuntu. I’d really like to know what makes a Linux distro more corporate than Ubuntu. Frankly, I feel like it can’t really have more value in it than Ubuntu unless it includes non-free software. Microsoft differentiates XP Home and Pro by removing features from Home, but Ubuntu isn’t crippling it’s distro that way.All that aside, best of luck to the bunch! 2005-07-08 2:58 pm I dont find it strange with everything that has transpired lately. Coming together to make sure there is a good standard based enterprise system. Mandake has always supportted both desktops and turbo as well I believe.They arent talking about another seperate distro within the company, read the article please… They are talking about a enterprise class distro that will offer apt/debs compatability as well as LSB and rpm familiarity… In other words the best of both worlds… Cause maintaing apt based systems are a breeze…. 2005-07-08 3:06 pm This is the way it should be, take Debian and adopt it to your niche. Just like Ubunutu is customizing Debian for the desktop, so wil this new distro customize Debian for the server, hopefully without loosing the nice Debian feeling.—CAPSLOCK2000 2005-07-08 3:11 pm Could be a good-thing(tm). Let’s see what the product will be all about. Having a solid Debian base (with all the knowledge Progeny brings to the table) and the combined desktop/kde expertise of Mandrake/Conectiva/Lycoris and Turbolinux, this could be more than just a “good server distro” – could be the well integrated and solid solution (server and desktops) that some maybe expected from Novell.On the other hand it could be just plain old RPM-Mandrake with some Debian sticking out of it’s top. 2005-07-08 3:12 pm In the enterprise field one of the most important aspects is that you can customize a software. That is what a technical consultant does day for day.I know that Debian is way more stable than Gentoo because in Gentoo you have so much ways of configuration (try to number the combinations of USE flags for example) that it is not possible to make a through testing.But with the power of three companies it should be possible. And as I said above: Companies-the customers- need the customization because every business has other environments in that they work.So I think that distributions should better look out for Gentoo so that the building of “solutions” for the professional market is possible.And as a side note: The stabilisation fromsuch a project is something that Gentoo would be thankful for. 2005-07-09 12:29 am dukeinlondonYou’ve answered quite well to your own question 2005-07-08 3:21 pm Why don’t they cooperate with (or buy out) Libranet? Libranet is, afaik, an even more enterprise ready debian variant than pure debian. It is maintained by a small but very capable team. 2005-07-08 3:29 pm good thought!but i always felt that libranet was just a little guy who liked the little guy status but the one thing i love about libranet is it is FUNCTIONAL! not the prettiest, not the easiest, not the newest…etc…but damn they know what tools to include for just enough hand holding, and if you dont want hand holding then they will get out of your way and let you do it yourself as well…and their stuff “just works” not trying to be fancy just functional…excellent thought!IAN are you reading this? have you spoke to libranet? heck, maybe he thinks he should be the only “debian” guru in the team….would be a good choice tho… 2005-07-08 3:24 pm Ok, I am so confused. How the heck do you make a Debian based distro that uses deb and has RHEL compatibility? In my opinion, it’s impossible. How the hell are they going to use the Debian repository and still keep the file structure of RedHat? 2005-07-08 3:36 pm why does KDE keep getting mentioned…. could choose gnome just as well but if they want to make everyone happy then they wont make the mistake of choosing one desktop they will support both the way most distros do…gnome all the way, actually strike thaticewm or xfce or e would be cool! 2005-07-08 5:33 pm As long as none of the involved companies confirms it, consider it as hoax. 2005-07-08 5:45 pm just grabbing some press attention for their respective distros is all….possibly… 2005-07-08 6:13 pm imtiazVendors joining up to release GNU/Linux distribution from a common core is very good choice. I have never used any Debian based distribution (apart from using Ubutu live-cd), but i respect what debian and other distribution have achieved over the years. Now, with new Debian release (sarge) out, I hope they will get more momentum.The best idea looks like is this new distribution will be RPM complaint. If they can do this, it will be a huge achievement.May be UnitedLinux was not successful. But thats past.All it matters is success of GNU/Linux, in server, at home, everywhere. All best wishes goes to them, who works towards this. 2005-07-08 6:43 pm Hmm, all the comments about the “new” distribution beeing RPM compilant… what for?There are mainly two RPM distros that matter in the enterprise right now – SuSE and Red Hat and they aren’t all that compatible to each other. So very often there are seperate RPMs for SuSE and for Red Hat anyway – it would be tough for this “enterprise distribution” to try and stay completely red hat (or suse) compatible from release to release.The real third power in business actually is Debian (or even the second, depending on who you ask) – it’s used a lot in government as well, so the Mandriva-based RPM-route probably wouldn’t get them too far in the enterprise when they try to build up a new system that wants to be supported by third parties.No matter what you think is supperior deb/dpkg/apt or rpm/urpmi/apt4rpm another-RPM distro woun’t get them anywhere. A fully debian compatible (not just another spinoff) system is another matter. 2005-07-08 6:48 pm Someone asked why all the talk about using KDE and not go with GNOME. Actually I fear this might happen – providing both is useless choice-is-good blah most enteprises don’t care for and Progeny seems rather GNOME centric – so if it’s based on Debian and.. well not nice.Too bad all the experience Mandriva has gained through it’s use of KDE over the years and the recent acquisition of Conectivca and especially Lycoris would be lost then. Anyway all of this only starts to really matter once there is more than “just” an Enterprise Server OS in the works. Another one based on GNOME – fighting Red Hat and Novell on unknown territory – seems risky. 2005-07-08 7:33 pm gregBut wasn’t there talk a couple weeks ago of Mandrake turning away from its’ RH roots and going with a Debian core? Is this a stepping-stone, or is this it? 2005-07-08 8:32 pm youknowmewellYou’re correct, the founder of Debian declared that Mandriva would die unless it used Debian.http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=10928http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/newss/5900/1/“But, Murdock emphasized, there is a catch. While Mandriva could continue to acquire as they have been doing, Murdock does not believe that they will be able to do so for long “without making Debian a part of their story.” In fact, the founder of Debian believes that Mandriva cannot succeed without using Debian technology.“Not only can they do it, my assertion is if they don’t do it, they can’t survive,” Murdock said.” 2005-07-09 12:35 am dukeinlondonHe is probably quite right. Mandriva has now realised that they have done a lot of work (urpmi and such) that they could have spared themselves (like connectiva did).Now they realise that debian represents a de facto standard (a lot of hosting companies use debian), the only one outside RedHat.Teaming up with other companies should help getting certifications from the likes of Sybase, Oracle and others. These guys don’t just certify the biggest, they certify partners. Hence companies (not communities) getting together around Debian. 2005-07-08 8:30 pm I don’t think Mandriva will be turning away from its Redhat roots anytime soon. Ian Murdock was merely specuating about Mandriva’s options, but that does not mean thats whats going to happen. I think the new distro if its not vapourware will use smartpm, which supports a variety of package formats on one installation. 2005-07-09 7:28 am MoulinneufFirst of all , if Mandriva does this ( Progeny and Turbolinux are not real distribution with a wide audience or long list of user or customers anywhere and are already big failures ) , it will be the final mistake , look at the reality people , NO ONE , as ever been able to make a profit and survive commercially by using Debian ( Progeny is the best example of a total failure on that one , not even the Debian Creator could make a go at it, but lets not forget Xandros ( failure ) , Linspire ( failure ) , Libranet ( failure ) , Mepis ( failure ) , Corel ( Failure ) , Stormix ( Failure ). The only one that are pulling there head for now are Ubuntu , Mark Shuttleworth effort ( The guy is a billionaire and using is money to push Ubuntu , the news of the foundation , I see as a signal that he will start spending less money on shipping free CD , every where and to every one as it must cost him a fortune to do so ) and Knoppix ( the first worlwide freely distributed Live CD ) wich is subventionned by Linuxtag.Mandriva is the only real GNU/Linux company to have beaten Red Hat in sale in the US in the past and who as kicked SUSE into bankrupty and made it get bought by IBM who in turn sold it to Novell. Mandriva is also the only communty who is directly facing Debian and the Debian base , Red Hat and Novell dont care about many segments ( personnal , SMB , education , community ) and have overall less offer and overall less products.Red Hat is big only in the US and in only the big corporation in the US , Novell as not yet finished its integration and is still a very new player to GNU/Linux with no real direction or sense of knowing where they are going. ( just look at ther eproduct line they are similar Novell and Novell/Suse )What François Bancilhon needs to do is to buy up really cheaply Progeny and Turbolinux ( as there not worth that much at all ) or kick them out of the market. This way he as a truely global corporation with the best developper around. Also all the other small company like Xandros and Linspire ( among others ) who will crumble under there own debt in the near futur as they dont have enough users and customer to sustend there expanses.Mandriva your no longuer MandrakeSoft , start showing some reall muscle and the true force of your entire community and corporation or you will once again be relegated in the mind of idiot as a non player when your already the Biggest player in Europe and in Africa and in South America and a force to be recognised with in Asia and the Second Player in the US behind Debian and the Debian based.Gnu/Linux whas impossible to install before MandrakeSoft came along , MandrakeSoft made it possible.Mandriva as now to become the legend who will definately crush into oblivion the reminder of SUSE and finaly beat Red Hat in the corporation sector and who will become an ally who is just as big as the entire Debian and the Debian base.Wishfull thinking on my part , I guess.There is no one that can beat Debian by beeing a Debian based , Only MandrakeSoft now Mandriva can take its place and become the legend who beat them all.Mandriva is Unique. And as no equal. 2005-07-09 12:24 pm Anonymous Penguin“but lets not forget Xandros ( failure ) , Linspire ( failure ) , Libranet ( failure ) , Mepis ( failure ) , Corel ( Failure ) , Stormix ( Failure ).” Moulinneuf, I know it is not very much in your nature, but you could try and show some fairness.Why is Mepis a failure? A one man distro which has managed 3rd or 4th place at Distrowatch?Why are Xandros or Linspire a failure? They have their niche in the market: users who want the very best of user-friendliness, and they achieve that goal better than any rpm distro.And why is Libranet a failure? They never wanted to be a big business, they have always been a two men operation. Nonetheless they have a smallish but very loyal group of followers.And couldn’t you at least leave the dead alone? Although Corel lives on in Xandros.I suppose you are jealous because Debian plus its derivatives has a number of users Mandrake could never dream of.And why nobody choses Mandrake as a basis for their distros? They chose Debian in the vast majority, some chose Red Hat. 2005-07-10 5:46 am Moulinneuf” Moulinneuf, I know it is not very much in your nature, but you could try and show some fairness.”You dont know me at all , so, you cant speak at all of my nature , I am being Fair and accurate as usual. What can I say I aint an anonymous.“Why is Mepis a failure?”1) Debian base that dont add much to the Debian base.2) Almost not budget.3) No sales department or sale force or deployment group.4) Almost no user at all , this mean that they dont have a big budget for development as no one contribute or give donation.5) Dont really contribute to Debian at all beside making another Debian base porduct that offer nothing that is not availaible elsewhere.etc …6) English distribution almost exclusively.“A one man distro ”add a number before this comment , who’s fault is it that he as no other developper wanting to work with or form him. He can do recruting or ask for help.” which has managed 3rd or 4th place at Distrowatch?”Distrowatch is a personnal site with some good information , its ranking as no real value in the overall use of a distribution , most of the GNU/Linux user dont read or go to Distrowatch at all.“Why are Xandros or Linspire a failure?”Almost no user use them , they cost more to acquire , but provide absolutely nothing of real value in exchange. They both have less software then most of the other Debian based products, they are not real distribution, they are GNU/Linux appliance. They remove software from the Debian core.“They have their niche in the market:”Someone who as a niche make a profit , let me repeat that so that you alsmot get it : Someone who as a niche make a profit , doing some part in the market , they are mostly rebranded and stylized Debian core.“users who want the very best of user-friendliness”You seem to think they have enough users wanting there products , not one of them as ever made a profitable quarter , ever.“and they achieve that goal better than any rpm distro.”No , but then again the reason most people dont use them are because they cant install or acquire them.“And why is Libranet a failure?”It as less user then Xandros as , its as old as Mandriva is , as almost no developper , this is going to sound sick and distatefull but is the absolute truth , the only real leader and developper they had died :http://lwn.net/Articles/138527/“They never wanted to be a big business”Beeing a big business as nothing to do with the quality and number of user using a distribution , Debian , Knoppix , PClinuxOS , Ubuntu and Mandriva showed that in the past.” they have always been a two men operation. ”No , but then again accurate information dont seem to be something you whant , need or have.“Nonetheless they have a smallish but very loyal group of followers”Not really , they are this way now, it whas not always the case.“And couldn’t you at least leave the dead alone?”I am going to assume your talking about Corel , and are lacking basic respect for the living by calling a bankrupt company “dead ” , wich whas a company and had no life.” I suppose you are jealous”Why would I be jealous ? Jealousy means I dont have what the others have , Mandriva as what Debian as and then a lot more. I also test and Use Debian and the Debian base on a regular basis.“because Debian plus its derivatives has a number of users Mandrake could never dream of. ”Mandrake dont exist anymore its called Mandriva now , because it acquired Conectiva and the management finally got fed up to pay lawyers. The Number of Mandriva user easily pass the number of user of any Debian alone.“And why nobody choses Mandrake as a basis for their distros?”http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=independenceWrong as usual , but I will add that Mandriva is also a distribution that is easy to contribute to , If it where not for the stupid Management at Mandriva , Klaus knopper , Daniel Robbins , Texstar and many others would be working there too.“They chose Debian in the vast majority, some chose Red Hat.”Because they are incomplete and broken product and project that you need to really go and start your own project and company to make things change and evolve …Now my turn , what make you think that companies that have 1 or two developper , who add around 50 in the past and who have only a thousand user when in the past they add ten of thousands are not failure. When its almsot impossible to find a computer running there software and most of the time even find there product easily anywhere.The difference between a failure and a working business ?1) Fulfilling a need2) Profit3) Repeat customers4) Innovation——1) There is absolutely no need nor whant for another debian base anything , there is already too many.2) Mandriva whont make a real profit against 200 company doing the same thing.3) the repeat customers are not existant with Debian , you get new one until they find the free version.4) Debian and the Debian base are beautifier and stabilizers they are not innovators. 2005-07-10 7:42 am Anonymous Penguin“You dont know me at all , so, you cant speak at all of my nature , I am being Fair and accurate as usual.”Of course I don’t know you personally, but I know from your previous, biased comments.“What can I say I aint an anonymous.”Now that is ridiculous. Because my chosen nickname is Anonymous Penguin, I am no more an anonymous than you are. I am a registered user.“4) Almost no user at all , this mean that they dont have a big budget for development as no one contribute or give donation.”Once again you don’t know what you are talking about. And for “somebody with almost no budget” they manage to advertize quite a bit at Distrowatch.“Distrowatch is a personnal site with some good information , its ranking as no real value in the overall use of a distribution , most of the GNU/Linux user dont read or go to Distrowatch at all.”Yet many of you were screaming blue murder when you lost your first place to Ubuntu.“Someone who as a niche make a profit , let me repeat that so that you alsmot get it : Someone who as a niche make a profit , doing some part in the market , they are mostly rebranded and stylized Debian core.”Who told you that they don’t make a profit? How do they keep going on? For you the only measure of success is money. And yet even you admit that Ubuntu and Knoppix are a success (and “the LinuxTag” excuse doesn’t sell)“No , but then again accurate information dont seem to be something you whant , need or have.”No, it is you who doesn’t. They started as Jon and Tal Danzig. When Jon became ill they employed Daniel de Kok. Everything else you say about Libranet doesn’t deserve my comment.“Mandrake dont exist anymore its called Mandriva now , because it acquired Conectiva and the management finally got fed up to pay lawyers.”Everybody is refusing to use that silly name“The Number of Mandriva user easily pass the number of user of any Debian alone.”Any Debian, what does that mean? There is only one Debian and its derivatives.“And why nobody choses Mandrake as a basis for their distros?”http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=independence“A really impressive list. And PCLinuxOS shouldn’t be there, it is a fork.“Because they are incomplete and broken product and project that you need to really go and start your own project and company to make things change and evolve … ”Wrong again. Debian is a very flexible metadistro, certainly not broken. Neither is Red Hat, which gets merely cloned (because it is very good and expensive)Most of the rest of your comment is such a nonsense that I have nothing to say. 2005-07-10 12:32 pm Moulinneuf“but I know from your previous, biased comments.”I guess you have a selective memory. Or your mistaking me for somebody else.“Now that is ridiculous.”No , You can select to be any name you whant but you associate with the worst entity on the net , for me people who are or call themself Anonymous are to be threated the same way as if they where nazi. That particular reply also show that you actually dont read my bias posts. I explained that one many time in the past.“I am no more an anonymous than you are.”Thats my real life name , you cant understand.“Once again you don’t know what you are talking about.”I guess I will have to disagree with you on that one.“And for “somebody with almost no budget” they manage to advertize quite a bit at Distrowatch. ”Distrowatch is cheap to advertise at … My point whas/is since they dont have that many user they dont have the budget others have. I never said they dont have a budget.“Yet many of you were screaming blue murder when you lost your first place to Ubuntu. ”No , what I said ( I whas one of them ) , is that many Ubuntu site are redirecting there user specificaly to Distrowatch , when Yoper did the same they where blocked. Ladislav as a double Standard and is bashing Mandriva at every chance he gets. Also it whas politely pointed out at first , but then degenerated in comment such as “screaming blue murder”.“Who told you that they don’t make a profit?”I asked.“How do they keep going on?”Its GPL and free Software , you need only time and to do the packaging work.“For you the only measure of success is money.”No there is # of users , innovations , quality of the solution, you keep showing that you dont know me at all.“(and “the LinuxTag” excuse doesn’t sell) ”What can I say accuracy and reality and truth are not part of your little world.“They started as Jon and Tal Danzig. When Jon became ill they employed Daniel de Kok.”Get the complete history then will talk.“Everything else you say about Libranet doesn’t deserve my comment. ”Nothing I say deserve your innacuracies at all , in my view.“Everybody is refusing to use that silly name ”Everyone seems to be using it and adpating to it , I dont see whats silly about it , its MandrakeSoft + Connectiva.“Any Debian, what does that mean?”All of them alone , if not taken as a group.“A really impressive list.”What can I say most people can and do contribute to Mandriva , instead of not beeing able to make change in the main solution.“PCLinuxOS shouldn’t be there, it is a fork.”No comment on that one. Learn what fork means.“Debian is a very flexible metadistro”It dont include 1/3 of what the Debian based have released under the GPL and are open Source. What people like is the central repository.“certainly not broken.”http://www.debian.org/vote/2005/platforms/brandenhttp://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2005/03/msg00035.htmlInstead of always making stupid and clueless comment as usual change and do a real research for once. 2005-07-09 9:52 am Debian needs to die….It needs to go away.Its sucks… its old… its broken… its crap.There is no polish, no orginization, no nothing.When a group of people come along (e.g. ubuntu) and do “debian” better, the debian zealots get all high and mighty .. yet they still sit there with the debs up their asses..die debian! 2005-07-09 10:38 am You must be one of those idiotic Ubuntu zealots who don’t understand that if Debian dies, Ubuntu will as well, and that Ubuntu owns its very existence to Debian. 2005-07-09 10:00 am ShadeAre APT users retards or is the Anonymous Troll with the same IP and possible blindness / stupidity (IP: 210.246.51.—) the real retard? You decide… 2005-07-09 10:51 am Anonymous PenguinOf course if you don’t know how to use APT and Debian you’ll say that Debian sucks. Same as for Windows users who can’t use linux.