“In an about-face, Microsoft said Tuesday that it will reinstate the ability to run Java programs in Windows XP. Microsoft said it would include its own Java software in the Service Pack 1 update to Windows XP due late this summer. In the long term, though, the company plans to remove Java from Windows altogether.” Read the report at News.com.
Microsoft to Reinstate Java in Windows
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Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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Microsoft’s Java runtime has been lame for a very long time. I don’t see including it again as a benefit to anybody. It is far better to download and install the JRE from Sun.
Does it really matter what Microsoft does at this point? The fact that they’re just doing the bare minimum to keep their goose from being cooked tells me that Microsoft isn’t a company worth doing business with. I got quite used to buying the latest MS OS every time one came out, but XP has changed that. The Draconian licensing, the non-support of common technologies whilst pushing out good software that I like and replacing it with a stripped-down version of their own… It’s the total of many little things.
Besides, I thought that they were supposed to be unbundling IE from Windows!
So is it going to be a hacked up version of Java with intentional incomptibilities like the first time?
Oh wait… They had to pay Sun a cool 20 million dollars for that one. Guess they probably won’t pull that again.
“Microsoft’s Java runtime has been lame for a very long time. I don’t see including it again as a benefit to anybody. It is far better to download and install the JRE from Sun.”
True. And A lost of PC vendors preload the JRE on their Windows XP systems anyway. In fact, that’s probably why Microsoft is doing it. They thought they could kill Java by not having Windows support it, PC vendors decided they would pre-load the JRE and thus foil the evil plan of Gates, so Gates and company decided that they better reininstate Java support so they could have at least some control over how Windows implements Java.
Most people need java for these annoying applets that show scrolling banners. They don’t need Suns JRE for it, the stupid MS Java JIT does the job, is faster and less memory hogging (Flame away if you disagree).
“Most people need java for these annoying applets that show scrolling banners. They don’t need Suns JRE for it, the stupid MS Java JIT does the job, is faster and less memory hogging (Flame away if you disagree).”
I disagree. But I won’t flame.
True, on the consumer side, you don’t see many Java applications. But in business, it is a lot more common.
And of course, there is one major consumer application that probably accounts for more consumer installs of JRE than any other. That would be Limewire. But the Limewire installer also offers to download and install the JRE automatically if it can’t already find it so the end user doesn’t have to know or care. All they have to do is say “The program needs it. I don’t have it. It wants to install it. Ok. Fine.”
Limewire is written in Java? Damn, no wonder it was so slow
I agree with the other guy that was talking about Java for scrolling banners and other annoying applets. I myself have not found a single use for it yet, and was actually happy that MS decided to remove it.
So is it going to be a hacked up version of Java with intentional incomptibilities like the first time?
Actually, it had Win32 bindings; which is illegal accroading to a MS-Sun contract.
Also, Sun calls it incompatible because J++ Studio and other Java related apps use the Java logo without being compatible with the standard Java. But I doubt I would like MS’s JVM – it is an old version which is slower than Sun’s.
True, on the consumer side, you don’t see many Java applications. But in business, it is a lot more common.
On the business side, they would already have JVM installed, even if MS don’t bundle it. It is consumers that would get the JVM; which like you said, don’t really need it.
most all the games on pogo.com use java. they have 1000’s of consumers playing there everyday. beyond that i see most java used on the serverside.
most all the games on pogo.com use java. they have 1000’s of consumers playing there everyday. beyond that i see most java used on the serverside.
Never heard of that site before, but nontheless, great site. Yahoo! Games also uses Java, but I wouldn’t be suprise one of these days it ditch the slow beast and use something like Flash.
“Does it really matter what Microsoft does at this point? The fact that they’re just doing the bare minimum to keep their goose from being cooked tells me that Microsoft isn’t a company worth doing business with.”
First off ms removed java because Sun sued them to take it out (granted sun didn’t get the verdict it wanted, since ms retained the right to bundle java w/new products through 2004), now they’re putting it back because one of the complaints sun has in its newest suit against ms is ms is trying to kill java. If you ask me its sun realizing they made a huge mistake and rather then admit it and ask (they should beg because lets face it 99% of consumers don’t need java and anyone who does will get it with or without it being bundled w/windows) ms to re-bundle java they just wasted tax dollars (in the form of court time and legal processing). btw while the liscensing is retarded why should they support common technologies or give other programs a free ride on xp default installs (I say free ride because lets face it if ms bundles your freebie browser in windows and you get 1% of windows users to shell out for the pay version ms just made you millions)? They’re trying to make money for their shareholders, not Sun’s (or real or apple or aol).
Genaldar is right.
But there’s more to Sun’s mistakes; taken from Joel’s On Software
Headline: Sun Develops Java; New “Bytecode” System Means Write Once, Run Anywhere.
The bytecode idea is not new — programmers have always tried to make their code run on as many machines as possible. (That’s how you commoditize your complement). For years Microsoft had its own p-code compiler and portable windowing layer which let Excel run on Mac, Windows, and OS/2, and on Motorola, Intel, Alpha, MIPS and PowerPC chips. Quark has a layer which runs Macintosh code on Windows. The C programming language is best described as a hardware-independent assembler language. It’s not a new idea to software developers.
If you can run your software anywhere, that makes hardware more of a commodity. As hardware prices go down, the market expands, driving more demand for software (and leaving customers with extra money to spend on software which can now be more expensive.)
Sun’s enthusiasm for WORA is, um, strange, because Sun is a hardware company. Making hardware a commodity is the last thing they want to do.
Oooooooooooooooooooooops!
Sun is the loose cannon of the computer industry. Unable to see past their raging fear and loathing of Microsoft, they adopt strategies based on anger rather than self-interest. Sun’s two strategies are (a) make software a commodity by promoting and developing free software (Star Office, Linux, Apache, Gnome, etc), and (b) make hardware a commodity by promoting Java, with its bytecode architecture and WORA. OK, Sun, pop quiz: when the music stops, where are you going to sit down? Without proprietary advantages in hardware or software, you’re going to have to take the commodity price, which barely covers the cost of cheap factories in Guadalajara, not your cushy offices in Silicon Valley.
“But Joel!” Jared says. “Sun is trying to commoditize the operating system, like Transmeta, not the hardware.” Maybe, but the fact that Java bytecode also commoditizes the hardware is some pretty significant collateral damage to sustain.
An important thing you notice from all these examples is that it’s easy for software to commoditize hardware (you just write a little hardware abstraction layer, like Windows NT’s HAL, which is a tiny piece of code), but it’s incredibly hard for hardware to commoditize software. Software is not interchangable, as the StarOffice marketing team is learning. Even when the price is zero, the cost of switching from Microsoft Office is non-zero. Until the switching cost becomes zero, desktop office software is not truly a commodity. And even the smallest differences can make two software packages a pain to switch between. Despite the fact that Mozilla has all the features I want and I’d love to use it if only to avoid the whack-a-mole pop-up-ad game, I’m too used to hitting Alt+D to go to the address bar. So sue me. One tiny difference and you lose your commodity status. But I’ve pulled hard drives out of IBM computers and slammed them into Dell computers and, boom, the system comes up perfectly and runs as if it were still in the old computer.
if you run windows i want a copy of your version.. my Windows always gave me BSOD if i put the hd in another machine.. i mean.. if you change the fucking floppy it wont boot..
First off ms removed java because Sun sued them to take it out (granted sun didn’t get the verdict it wanted, since ms retained the right to bundle java w/new products through 2004)
You’re mis-stating the cause and effect. Sun sued because Microsoft violated the license agreement they had with Sun. And while Microsoft did drop Sun’s JVM, that’s a totally different thing from what Microsoft did with Windows XP. Before XP, Microsoft had a non-compliant Java clone that they used when they lost the right to use real Java. Furthermore, according to the news reports, Microsoft is dropping Java altogether in 2004 not because of some license, but because they’re planning on using their own C# product to replace it.
…now they’re putting it back because one of the complaints sun has in its newest suit against ms is ms is trying to kill java. If you ask me its sun realizing they made a huge mistake and rather then admit it and ask…
Granted, Sun made a big mistake. But you can’t ignore the wrongdoing on Microsoft’s part. They breached the contract.
they just wasted tax dollars (in the form of court time and legal processing).
That’s total bull. The loser of the suit gets to pay those fees. As for the expense, if you would rather live in some banana republic with kangaroo courts, go right ahead.
why should they support common technologies or give other programs a free ride on xp default installs
Justice. Courts have ruled that Microsoft did something wrong, and the “Free ride” as you call it is one way for Microsoft to pay for past wrongs. Also, monopolies have certain responsibilities that would be unthinkable in a free market.
(I say free ride because lets face it if ms bundles your freebie browser in windows and you get 1% of windows users to shell out for the pay version ms just made you millions)?
What “pay version”? What are you talking about?
They’re trying to make money for their shareholders, not Sun’s (or real or apple or aol).
Nevertheless there was a contract. You can claim that nobody has to honor contracts because “all’s fair in love and war”, but the truth is that business is neither of those. Sure, some people try to make it war, and they have to pay for their crimes.
“I agree with the other guy that was talking about Java for scrolling banners and other annoying applets. I myself have not found a single use for it yet, and was actually happy that MS decided to remove it.”
I have found plenty of uses for Java:
1. Server side applications.
2. Rapid development – Studies have shown that development times with Java are around 5 times faster than with C or C++ and the source code is about 2 to 3 times smaller.
3. Cross platform – If you stick to “100% pure Java”, the same bytecode file will run on virtually any machine that implements the Java VM.
As far as Java being slow, that’s not as true anymore as it used to be. Decent JIT compilers can get Java programs to within 90% of the performance of the same program written in C or C++.
i saw Java beat VC++ in a benchmark once
it lost in the others but not by much
i saw Java beat VC++ in a benchmark once
it lost in the others but not by much
LOL, that’s funny! There’s something very wrong with a C/C++ compiler that requires more runtime libraries than VB.
I meant the premium version of non-ms browsers (opera for example) or media players (quicktime and realone). If you force ms to include any of those applications some people will pay for the full one thereby generating revenue for those companies at no cost (since they’re currently downloaded the companies have the cost of bandwidth and servers, if ms is forced to include them those costs go down even though more revenue is generated with the greater exposure).
btw ms never breached the contract, they just used the java trademarked name on a non-100% compliant virtual machine. Which is why they had to pay the 20 million.
“LOL, that’s funny! There’s something very wrong with a C/C++ compiler that requires more runtime libraries than VB.”
Umm… What do you think dynamically linked binaries in Linux are? Same principle. And UNIX did it long before Windows. It’s a pretty nice concept actually. Dynamically linked binaries are significantly smaller than statically linked ones. And you don’t end up 50,000 copies of the same code on your system. All the programs that need it share the same copy.
I have recently started to work with Vb.Net (Visual Basic) The codes for Vb.Net look awefully familiar to that of Java. To program in Vb.Net all you need to do is download the Sdk (Same story with Java) I read recently that MS wants to drop Java by 2004. It is promoting the crap out of its .Net framework. Whats next?