Today is the scheduled release date for the long-awaited GNOME2 desktop. But instead of a final GNOME2, a second release candidate will be issued. This falls in line with a one-week delay in RC 1, though when its delay was announced it was said that final release would not be delayed. The report is at LinuxAndMain. Our Take: Gnome2 is more than one year old late, while KDE is on track on most of its releases, and it seems to have captivated the userbase, as according to latest stats and polls, KDE has more than 55% of the Linux desktop, as opposed to Gnome’s 25% (which continues to decline). UPDATE: Yama from PCLinuxOnline writes: “I have written an article that aims to clear up many misconceptions that many people seem to hold about GNOME. Hopefully it will lead to a greater understanding of The GNOME Project and what it’s about.“On a similar note, I would like to mention that I was caught by surprise today, after installing a new (beta) version of Mandrake Cooker, and witnessing the included KDE 3.0.1, running as fast on my Celeron 2×533 Mhz box as on my AthlonXP 1600+ (manually compiled there with optimizations on) or even the optimized i686 Portage-compiled of Gentoo on the same machine (the Celerons)!
Konqueror loads in 1 second. KDE is snappy in general, and it is indeed… a surprise given the nature of Mandrake and the fact that it is a simple i586 build. I suspect that this version of KDE is either compiled with the also included in the beta, GCC 3.1.1, or it is using a fixed version of the Linux loader, which is known to have problems loading KDE/C++ applications (which is the reason many users had to resort in the problematic, stability-wise, object prelinking).
The version of Mandrake Cooker’s KDE I run right now (I am posting this through Konqueror) seems to be on par or to even outperform the i686, -O3 compiled, object-prelinked version of Gentoo on the same machine (note: Gentoo is installed on a somewhat slower drive).
No need to plug KDE and bash on GNOME… both projects are doing a great job. Personally I prefer GNOME since it looks like it was designed with usability in mind, not sheer featuritis, and GNOME 2 looks great.
I was not trying to plug KDE, I am sorry if it sounded that way. The “our take” paragraph is my opinion to the story and where Gnome is today, and was meant to be there.
But the KDE/Mandrake thingie is something that I was just playing around at the time I was writting the story, so I thought I should mention it there, as it does not really worth a whole brand new story on its own.
Fact is though, I am dissapointed at Gnome’s progress, as it seems to be too late, KDE has surpassed it by having much more userbase to show for. I wish for a strong comeback, but I do no really see it, because I already have Gnome RC1 here, and older versions, and apart from AA and the port to GTK+ 2,x, there are no real changes to the environment and the experience. Personally, I believe that Gnome is going to play the role of the “second” player, as Netscape did the last few years under the shadow of IE.
I do not like the Gnome desktop as much as I like KDE 3, this is true. However, I really want to see it come-back, but the Gnome-2 is not the “comeback” that many anticipate…
Is it me or do kde and gnome seem EXACTLY the same but with a different theme. I know this isnt true, but I seems that way. What are the diferences? Give me enlightment (hehe pun (how do you spell that again?) intended)!
Is it me or do kde and gnome AND windows seem EXACTLY the same but with a different theme?
This is why I prefer WindowMaker.
I mostly use KDE and I didn’t like the old version of Gnome. I haven’t tried the new version yet, but it is always good to have an extra choice.
Fact is though, I am dissapointed at Gnome’s progress, as it seems to be too late, KDE has surpassed it by having much more userbase to show for.
Dang, I guess KDE should pack it up since Windows has a larger userbase too!
..as Netscape did the last few years under the shadow of IE
Sorry Eugenia, but that is IMHO a very misinformed analogy.
KDE will *never* reach the dominance that IE reached (market share wise), simply because they cannot make use of their monopolistic position/power. The big open source projects are probably evenly divided between both desktop enviroments. Think Gimp, Pan, Xchat, OpenOffice, etc. VS
Konqueror, Koffice, etc.
I am no fan of either KDE or GNOME and from a pure technical standpoint KDE is the clear choice when it comes to API cleannes and coherence, but GNOME will always be right there, next to KDE. That is of course very good since it’ll keep both projects on their toes (no pun intended).
fooks
Cool…I was about to write the same comment. I also see KDE suffering from featuritis where Gnome is at least trying to emphasize usability.
Hmmm it seems that if you run a search for Gnome on google v.s. KDE you get these results:
4,200,000 : KDE
4,570,000 : Gnome
At Sourceforge projects Gnome v.s. KDE:
1288 : Gnome
891 : KDE
Also a search will show that the activity of about the top 25 projects are the same for KDE as Gnome with a nearly identical slope.
At frestmeat, a quick count of the projects will reveal these statistics:
Gnome (700 projects)
GTK (372 projects)
KDE (515 projects)
Qt (131 projects)
What polls would that be? To make such an assurtion requires some proof. Sind you perfer KDE you must also perfer stats and polls on KDE sites.
Hmmm it seems that if you run a search for Gnome on google v.s. KDE you get these results:
4,200,000 : KDE
4,570,000 : Gnome
At Sourceforge projects Gnome v.s. KDE:
1288 : Gnome
891 : KDE
Also a search will show that the activity of about the top 25 projects are the same for KDE as Gnome with a nearly identical slope.
At frestmeat, a quick count of the projects will reveal these statistics:
Gnome (700 projects)
GTK (372 projects)
KDE (515 projects)
Qt (131 projects)
What polls would that be? To make such an assurtion requires some proof. Since you perfer KDE you must also perfer stats and polls on KDE sites.
Well, I know Eugenia doesn’t need any white knight to take her side, but your comments look like misinterpretations of what she wrote:
1) Your first comment suggest she said that since KDE has a much larger user base, Gnome should pack it up., when she clearly stated she was hoping a comeback.
2) Her analogy doesn’t seem misinformed, at least to me: Gnome looks well on the way to play the second player, as Netscape is a second player in relation to IE, as for most people (I think) all free OSes are second or third players to Linux, etc.
During my early days using Linux, Gnome is just a ‘baby’ but I love it since it give me the GUI that I used to in Window$. The licencing issue with Qt are also one of the factor I choose Gnome at that time. When Trolltech change Qt licencing, I started to use KDE and until now I prefer it over Gnome. For me Gnome have several weaknesses.
BUT we need Gnome in order to spur competition that will improve both DE. Honestly, I don’t like both of them but they are the viable DE to use in Linux. The reason is partly due to bloatness, too many same type of application and the GUI concept is no different from Window$.
If somebody can design GUI that save the screen space ([i]so that current application design for 1024×768 can be view on 640×480 without problem/[i]) while at the same time have the flexibility as the current concept, I’ll be in joy. Maybe I should contribute to the community too but currently I got no time to spend on software development. It’s only 24 hours a day.
Hey lets just can most of the gnome project and just keep the libs so we can run some gnome programs under KDE. Gnome is a total slug to use as a desktop environment and I’ll be greatful when its dead.
get gnome2 compile it on the same compiler with similar optimization…
and see what is snappy with some heavy load on it
I can compile the new mozilla why using the previous one (and listen to my music, and using gabber, and….) using gnome2 or enlightenment e16 (no success in getting a good compile of e17) trying the same with KDE3.0.1.latest (same compile rules as gnome2) result in a crawly even using konq and not mozilla as browser… (I have plenty of ram so I could even run 2 X with kde on one and gnome2 on the other and still not use swap…)
I also used to prefer KDE over gnome, then I thought about what apps I was actually using regularly (under KDE)
– Gimp
– XMMS
– Galeon
– Evolution
– Dia
– Abiword
– OpenOffice
– Gnumeric
– Gnucash
– Gvim
I was using these apps under KDE because they were/are better than the KDE equivalent apps.
Since this realization I have switched back to Xfce, just running the apps I need. It with ROX provides me a very easy to use, rich and efficient environment that doesn’t get in my way.
Having said this, there are aspects of KDE I really like. Their printing architecture for one, their consistency for another, but at the end of the day it’s the apps that rule. For me there aren’t better apps than the ones I mention above. How many of those are KDE/Qt, Gnome/GTK+?
Heh yea just try running Sleazel with gnome and watch the lagometer go thru the roof. Die, gnome, die.
I wish for a strong comeback, but I do no really see it, because I already have Gnome RC1 here, and older versions, and apart from AA and the port to GTK+ 2,x, there are no real changes to the environment and the experience
I’m sorry, but that sounds very narrow-minded (no offence). The most complex part to code in a desktop environment such as GNOME is the backend, i.e. the libraries that make applications possible. The applications themselves are comparatively easier to code, because of all the complex stuff that the backend gives (widgets, component framework, etc.). The GNOME 2.0 desktop (i.e. not the development platform) was intentionally a port of the GNOME 1.4 desktop to GTK+ 2.x. The whole point is to lay a solid foundation upon which to build new apps. Similarly, KDE 3.0 was mostly a port of KDE 2.2.2 to QT3. As a bonus, apps like Nautilus lost a lot of bloat and gained a lot of speed.
No need to plug KDE and bash on GNOME… both projects are doing a great job. Personally I prefer GNOME since it looks like it was designed with usability in mind, not sheer featuritis, and GNOME 2 looks great.
GNOME 1.x has practically no usablity. There is no consitency between GNOME apps. GNOME 2 had improved; but we can’t compare a product out there with a unstable product.
Dang, I guess KDE should pack it up since Windows has a larger userbase too!
She was giving the reason why GNOME marketshare have been going down. And she didn’t say to pack up and leave; but to follow schedules.
KDE will *never* reach the dominance that IE reached (market share wise), simply because they cannot make use of their monopolistic position/power. The big open source projects are probably evenly divided between both desktop enviroments. Think Gimp, Pan, Xchat, OpenOffice, etc. VS
Konqueror, Koffice, etc.
OpenOffice.org isn’t made for GNOME; nor require GNOME. What would be GNOME’s KOffice altenative is GNOME Office; which until recently haven’t had any integration plans. Pan and XChat have equally as good altenatives on KDE; and Konqueror doesn’t compare with any of the GNOME apps you have mention. The GNOME apps that does the same job as Konqueror is Nautilus; which is (the only that came in GNOME 2.0 RC1) slower than Konqueror (3.0.1).
Cool…I was about to write the same comment. I also see KDE suffering from featuritis where Gnome is at least trying to emphasize usability.
Usablity? In Gnotices; many asked for proper file dialogs; GTK+ Developers said “nope, too lazy, good other cool features we want to implement first”. In fact, without Sun, GNOME wouldn’t near anyway KDE’s accessiblity.
Hmmm it seems that if you run a search for Gnome on google v.s. KDE you get these results:
Hmmm, so what? Google search results show the userbase? There is 2,290,000 results for Mac OS X, is there less users of Mac OS X?
At Sourceforge projects Gnome v.s. KDE:
Actually, I went through some of the projects that is GNOME-related. Half or more of them are them to replace some GNOME component they don’t like; while the other half was GNOME applications. For KDE/QT; most of them are applications for KDE/qt not replacement components. But then again, I only look at some of the projects there, and there is too many to check them out today (or this week); but that is from what I have seen from those I have checked out.
BUT we need Gnome in order to spur competition that will improve both DE. Honestly, I don’t like both of them but they are the viable DE to use in Linux. The reason is partly due to bloatness, too many same type of application and the GUI concept is no different from Window$.
They may look the same; but believe me, if you have no idea how to use Windows; and use KDE most of your life (like me); when you use Windows – it is so darn different. The reason why KDE and GNOME is always potrait as Windows look alikes is that most distributions (with an exception of few) make them as Windows-like as possible. For example, take out Ximian GNOME, compare the looks with Windows. Does it look the same to me? If it does, then the toilet bowl looks the same with Windows.
(Personally, I miss KDE 1.x UI).
get gnome2 compile it on the same compiler with similar optimization…
and see what is snappy with some heavy load on it
It IS pretty snappy; but compare it with KDE 3.0.1 with obj. prelink.. it doesn’t seem snappy anymore.
– Gimp
– XMMS
– Galeon
– Evolution
– Dia
– Abiword
– OpenOffice
– Gnumeric
– Gnucash
– Gvim
The application highlighted ISN’T a GNOME app.
Also, I prefer to use Kash to Gnucash (well, I gave up on its dependancies for the last version). But then, since my family uses Windows, they use Quicken. As for Dia, Kivio seems better; but I hardly use neither. Abiword has no additional features than KWord. Evolution and Galeon are pretty good; and on Linux when I want to use Mozilla, I use Galeon. But I use Yahoo! Mail, I can’t really compare Evo with KMail. But I prefer KDE PIM to Evo. As for XMMS, I use this software call FreeAmp. It doesn’t copy WinAmp UI which personally I don’t like (fonts are too small), and I like the UI a lot (FreeAMP isn’t a KDE app anyway). But I’m increasingly enjoying Noatun; but it normally skips on my Oggs even when most of the system resources are free.
I think you missed her point completely. I think she meant that, as far as the competition between gnome and kde goes, gnome will be a distant second to kde, the same way Netscape is a distant second to IE. And that is correct in my opinion.
Between KDE and GNOME, GNOME would always be a distant second because of features. But between Netscape and IE, Netscape would always be a distant second because AOL don’t seem serious about marketing it, and using it to get Microsoft cooperation (for example, the latest AOL release uses IE, even though they said otherwise).
The competition between Gnome and Kde did push quick development on both sides, and I too wish it would remain close. But Gnome is both ugly and dorky, and unless Eazel does something with Gnome, I don’t see it coming close to kde in the long run.
Eye candy wise, default GNOME looks much better than default KDE. However, it is only the default theme that looks nice. The rest are butt ugly; while on KDE you are spoilt for choice. Eazel did change some of GNOME’s UI – Nautilus. But for 1.x, Nautilus did that by using non-standard libraries and hacks, which made it slow.
If Sun wants a real desktop, they had go for KDE.
For sure Sun would like to make propreitary GTK+ based apps. If they went with QT, they would have to pay Troll Tech money. Besides, they are replacing CDE (but to me, they should have taken XFCE..)
Remember, Sun doesn’t think about the feature list. They think how much money they have to fork out.
I’m sorry, but that sounds very narrow-minded (no offence). The most complex part to code in a desktop environment such as GNOME is the backend, i.e. the libraries that make applications possible. The applications themselves are comparatively easier to code, because of all the complex stuff that the backend gives (widgets, component framework, etc.). The GNOME 2.0 desktop (i.e. not the development platform) was intentionally a port of the GNOME 1.4 desktop to GTK+ 2.x. The whole point is to lay a solid foundation upon which to build new apps. Similarly, KDE 3.0 was mostly a port of KDE 2.2.2 to QT3. As a bonus, apps like Nautilus lost a lot of bloat and gained a lot of speed.
Actually, after the first few releases of Nautilus for GNOME, I gave up on it. When i use GNOME, it would be GMC. But when I was trying out GNOME 2, there wasn’t GMC. So I tried the new Nautilus. Boy was it fast. But it is still slower than Konqueror; especially with HTML pages.
Actually, after the first few releases of Nautilus for GNOME, I gave up on it. When i use GNOME, it would be GMC. But when I was trying out GNOME 2, there wasn’t GMC. So I tried the new Nautilus. Boy was it fast. But it is still slower than Konqueror; especially with HTML pages.
With GNOME 1, I turn both Nautilus and GMC off (I don’t need desktop icons) and use Konqueror and Endeavour mark II for file management. I describe this and more in an article I wrote at PCLinuxOnline:
http://www.pclinuxonline.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid…
With GNOME 2, I find I can actually use Nautilus, and for me it runs a bit faster than Konqueror. Its Web browsing is based on Mozilla, so if you find it slow then blame Mozilla. Nautilus isn’t meant to be used as a proper Web browser; if you want that then use Galeon. In fact, there is much talk of Nautilus dumping its own browsing routines and having it embed Galeon instead.
I like KDE better than GNOME. There’s consistency within applications and it’s faster. But I still use GNOME, for one reason: it’s based on GTK.
It’s not that the GTK libraries are that good. But GTK is forever free, and it’s released not by a company (TrollTech) but by the FSF. Nobody can ever make GTK closed. TrollTech, on the other hand, could halt GPL-based QT development tomorrow, and there would be nothing we could do about it.
In my view, the perfect solution would be to integrate QT into GTK, making GTK support C++ bindings and QT-like calls, so that all KDE/QT applications could instantly be recompiled with GTK instead.
Once that happened, not only would KDE be based on free, non-corporate libraries, but it would use the same graphics libraries as GNOME. It would then become trivially easy to convert applications to work with both GNOME and KDE. That would make a lot more people use KDE instead, too.
The end result? There’s one set of desktop libraries, based on neo-GTK and a merger of all the functions that KDE and GNOME can perform; and every other part of the desktop, from the desktop filemanager, to the mail client, to the browser, would be completely interchangeable.
Gee, why not just go with windowmaker? It has the real Unix philosopy of doing one thing and doing it well. KDE and GNOME are nice, but they take up too many resources. I don’t imagine that anyone running a busy network would prefer them to Windowmaker or CLI.
Just my 2 cents.
They may look the same; but believe me, if you have no idea how to use Windows; and use KDE most of your life (like me); when you use Windows – it is so darn different. The reason why KDE and GNOME is always potrait as Windows look alikes is that most distributions (with an exception of few) make them as Windows-like as possible. For example, take out Ximian GNOME, compare the looks with Windows. Does it look the same to me? If it does, then the toilet bowl looks the same with Windows.
Actually I don’t care about the look. If just for look, I’ve already made my IceWM look like OSX and a lot more look I can do with KDE. What is more important is that the CONCEPT (or maybe some would say PRINCIPLE) of how the GUI should work. I think OSX got a little bit of different principle but the core GUI remain. If I got time, maybe I’ll announce to the community for RFC so that easier for others to understand what I mean.
I don’t mean current GUI is not good, it is usable enough but there are limitation especially for low resolution display since most of current application designed for high resolution display. Yeah!! the PC display are cheap now but I still cant find any good and cheap high resolution display for my wearable computer application.
… but isn’t ready yet!!
=((((
Eugenia,
I must say, I was relatively disappointed to see such flamebait posted along with a story… but I simply can’t resist responding to it, so here goes. I strongly believe that GNOME is the last possible chance for the open-source desktop reaching any (even very moderate) mass acceptance. Having recently installed RC1, I am strongly impressed with the project’s progress and amount of polishing that has taken place. I find GNOME to be among the most admirable projects in existence for its completely atypical rejection of excessive bloat and features that have notoriously plagued open source projects and have destroyed the friendliness of interfaces. It seems as though the designers of GNOME are actually listening to the complaints voiced ever so commonly expressed in forums, *just like this one*. KDE, on the other hand, is continually adding more and more fluff, and each version is slower and more bloated. Seems to me as though the KDE developers are trying to strongly emulate Microsoft in more ways than just by cloning the GUI. =)
And, honestly, why should marketshare even be an issue? Fractions of a percent are pretty damned meaningless. =)
Its very true that the LGPL licence of Gtk may be very valuable. Especially when you cant write closed source apps in Qt/KDE without paying $$ to Trolltech. However Trolltech cant
stop this tomorrow if they like, they can ofcourse stop releasing Qt under GPL. However, they already have a GPL’ed Qt version out. If Trolltech stops releasing it under GPL, noone can stop anyone from taking the last Qt GPL version and continue developing it though. And noone can stop anyone from forking Qt today and do parallell development with Trolltech on it.(all continued under GPL ofcourse.)
Anyway, all my regards to Trolltech, they have created an enterprise, easy-to-use GUI Toolkit/Framework for *nixes.
And released the source. Without owing anything to the community.
This is boring, really. Who cares if Gnome has a lower marketshare than KDE? The fact remains that you can run a Desktop completely based on Gtk without a problem (there are almost no Qt applications that don’t have an equal or better Gtk counterpart).
Personally, I switched often enough to know that none of them is “better”. Currently I run Gnome because 2.0 is really cool, I especially like their work in usability. This is the only thing I can’t stand about KDE, the usability is crap. Too many cluttered menues, too many functions, as many already pointed out. Featuritis is cool as long as you don’t put all the options at one place without some very logical structure.
The Gnome project finally is starting to innovate instead of immitade and that’s what I like about it. It’s not my dream desktop though, I would prefer something much more integrated and innovative. Something that doesn’t use X. :]
Like Fresco or maybe Cosmoe.
http://www.berlin-consortium.org/index.html
http://www.cosmoe.com/
In the state Gnome is in now, I find it not an option for ordinaery users(like my boss, my father etc.). KDE is much nicer here.
-Not userfriendly.
-Too inconsistent.
-Crashes way to much.
-Uses memory.. a few corba servers I can accept lying around
doing nothing, but what if everyone starts using this? I dont wanna have heaps of process lying around waiting for the next time i _might_ start an app..
However, Gnome have a damn good architecture, I’m thinking Bonobo, Corba, Gnome-VFS, Gnome-print and so on. Fix a few problems with those and ship godd docs/tutorials, it will really be an enterprise environment.
Which I find very nice for developers in contradiction to the KDE arcitecture, which tries to do much of the same.
Hopefully Sun might be able to fix much of this after it becomes the default dekstop on Solaris. And maybe they’ll
make some good documentation for developing under Gnome also, the existing is, well better than nothing, but way to incomplete.
I’m really hoping for Gnome to be “nice” again..
This article meant to not be a flamebait, I am sorry if it sounded this way. I am saying this for a second time.
While I like KDE better than Gnome – I already said that too -, I usually use WindowMaker when I am under any of my Unices. I have stated this many times too.
Isn’t OpenBeOS done yet, so I can get back to enjoying my computer??
Seriously, I personally think Gnome is the most user-friendly desktop environment , especially with Ximian’s version. I like KDE, but have found it to be a bit less stable IMHO than Gnome.
i recently switched from gnome to kde. gnome 2 is a big disappointment for the whole community, not only that it lacks usability and tools it’s also useless. happily there is kde. if i’d knew before how cool kde 3 was i’d switched months earlier and saved the big hassle around gnome.
do your health something good and use kde or a normal window manager.
“do your health something good and use kde or a normal window manager”
Guess what Metacity is?
Does using the gnome-panel and some other (all optional) Gnome stuff that I like any difference? Geez…
“not only that it lacks usability”
Huh? Care to explain? The general consense seems to be that Gnome 2 is far ahead in terms of usability. Far ahead of Gnome 1.x and KDE 2.x that is.
Sorry to say that in harsh words but you are clueless. I was developing parts of Gnome. At the end I found out that I wasted my time in doing this. Gnome is nothing that one should offer their customers.
a) Metacity an unfinished Windowmanager
b) The usability is far behind of KDE
c) No Tools or Programs that you can offer customers
d) Gnome went away from what it was meant to be
e) To many Companies are itching around in it now
Now one word to the usability of Gnome. It is definately far far behind KDE since its integration sucks badly. Still you can’t do easy tasks like Browsing the WWW, grab a link that is shown in Mozilla or in Galeon and drag it to your Desktop or in one of Nautilus’s directories.
Preferences got hidden behind that crappy Windowsregistry like System. No one is able to configure his/her Desktop the way he/she likes without needing to load up GConf-Editor and doing a long long search within it.
Gnome 2 still feels clumsy, far behind KDE in usability operability etc.
Gnome has no _REAL_ own office suite, Gnome has no _REAL_ own Webbrowser (that lame hack around Mozilla called Galeon is no real Webbrowser) its only some stuff to hide most of the XUL clutter.
What does the Consumer get at the end ? Basically nothing he/she can use in a daily work. Let’s think about a serious operating and with big money dealing company. I seriuously don’t recommend them to use Gnome if I am up to sell them stuff I would recommend using Windows or I am trying to sell them KDE.
There is no easy use in Gnome. The Menues, Dialogs, Windows, Toolbars, Shortcuts etc. are still totally fucked up (as is in CVS from Today).
I am quite sure that a lot of peoples high hopes are going to pop like soapbubbles. There’s nothing that could keep me on Gnome since there is nothing. Even Nautilus feels so what glued on Gnome. it doesn’t feel really integrated after all.
After I tried KDE i was fallen in love to it. I was one of the hardliners that still belived in Gnome for many many years now. But we need to face the truth, Gnome started 1 year after KDE and now looks like its 5 years behind it from technology and usability.
KDE offers all. A Webbroser that fits into its environment, where I can simply drag&drop stuff from links to the Desktop or in some Folders. I get a serious operating Filemanager, I get an Emailer, Pim, Office etc. and the progress things changes in KDE’s CVS is amazing. They commit in one day what Gnome commits in 1 week.
Face the truth, why should I want another 2-3 years until Gnome reaches KDE 2.2.2 quality if i can use a nearly perfect Desktop (KDE) today ?
What a piece of trollish crap.
Get a life man, if you feel so hard about desktop environments. I can tell you something, I switched several times between Gnome and KDE and whatever else I could find (Enlightenment, Windowmaker, Blackbox, you name it) and I always loved what I was using. There is no point in bashing the stuff you don’t like. I actually know that KDE is a lot more consistent and integrated, that’s the big plus of KDE. But Gnome has gone a long way to increase overall usability, starting from easy to use and more consistent preference dialogs to more logical window and button placement. If you want to deny that, find. Have fun beeing an ignorant and blind troll. There are enough people who actually value the efforts of the Gnome usability team. Right, drag and drop to and from the desktop is not always perfect, but that’s a technical problem. You can be sure that they are working on it, it’s not that they said “hey, let’s fuck up drag and drop, it might increase the usability”. While KDE is technically very advanced, it’s layout just isn’t very userfriendly in many cases. I loved using KDE 2.x but I always didn’t like the confusing and bloated preferences and configuration dialogs. I hope that KDE will work on this one day besides of just adding features. The nice guys at KDE are very well aware of this problem so I’m sure they will do it one day. They are probably more aware of it than some of their trolling fans.
To say Galeon isn’t a “real” browser is just another joke. I use it for browsing all the time (when I’m in Gnome) so it must be a video player or something like that.
Metacity half finished? lol… Wonder why it’s working so well for me, huh? Really, I could go on forever but you are just making me sick and sad. And please don’t come with this stupid rants about “what customers get”. Both desktops are completely free so you get EVERYTHING, face it! Hard to believe, huh?
I’m not even a fan of Gnome, but narrowminded trolling like this gets me going! You still didn’t explain what’s the big difference between Gnome tools on top of any windowmanager and using a “real” windowmanager! Maybe you just have no clue?
a) the button layour in gnome sucks, look at the screenshot utility in gnome, look how far the ok and cancel buttons are away. look into other gnome core applications and you realize that some buttons are 8 pixel spaced, some 5 pixel spaced, some 6 pixel spaced and in some other apps like gdm prefs has 0 pixel space between the buttons.
b) metacity is definately unfinished. it works yes but its unfinished.
c) galeon is definately no webbrowser. you use it and you may like it. thats ok for me. but it depends on mozilla whereass it embedds XUL in its rendering window. that is you use gtkembeddmozilla through galeon whereas you get all the XUL shit shown in what galeon renders even the scrollbar to the right is a XUL objekt. it doesnt feel really integrated into gnome after all..
one step more. even galeon doesnt follow the gnome styling and coding guides after all. the whole prefernces shit as in galeon 1 was not conform and they keep this nonconformity of it in galeon 2.
d) buttons got changed in gnome 2. all apps i met during the past years on linux and other systems were OK/CANCEL now with gnome we get CANCEL/OK now lets assume that a lot of people using mixed applications under gnome how do you think they are getting confused ? one time the ok button is left the next time its right and so on. do you seriously call this usability ?
e) we are getting people in our gnome channel every day that rant and complain why all preferences are beeing hidding in that windosregistry kind of shit called gconf. well hiding a couple of preferences is no doubt a good idea but well they have hidden a shitload of prefs.
f) you said a unique looking preferences section. thats not true. why are some prefs window popping up centered in the desktop and why are others popping up top left ?
g) consistent lookign apps ? why do some gnome apps have a bonobo window, why some old gtk windows and why some gnome windows ? why does some apps have a icon in their help menu why others not, why does some applications react immediately when you change (icons only, icons/text, text only) in the toolbar layout and why does other apps need to be restarted first ?
h) open a flooting panel on your desktop place 1-2 launchers inside and then remove the arrows from it. now tell me how you access the settings of exaclty that panel.
i can continue if you like but i think thats enough. gnome 2 is a pile of inconsistent crap. far far behind of kde.
Wow, why don’t you get my point. I’m not flaming you because I think that Gnome is far superiour than KDE, I’m flaming you because you are bashing Gnome, which is a perfectly fine project for _many_ people. It doesn’t matter that you don’t like it, will you ever understand this?
“a) the button layour in gnome sucks, look at the screenshot utility in gnome, look how far the ok and cancel buttons are away. look into other gnome core applications and you realize that some buttons are 8 pixel spaced, some 5 pixel spaced, some 6 pixel spaced and in some other apps like gdm prefs has 0 pixel space between the buttons.”
Hmm might be, I never noticed that. That is probably because Gtk doesn’t work with fixed pixel spaces but with more dynamic placement. Maybe this would be worth changing, dunno.
“b) metacity is definately unfinished. it works yes but its unfinished.”
It may be unfinished but it doesn’t lack anything that I would need. What exactly is it lacking so you wouldn’t be able to use it in a productive way?
“c) galeon is definately no webbrowser. you use it and you may like it. thats ok for me. but it depends on mozilla whereass it embedds XUL in its rendering window. that is you use gtkembeddmozilla through galeon whereas you get all the XUL shit shown in what galeon renders even the scrollbar to the right is a XUL objekt. it doesnt feel really integrated into gnome after all..”
Believe me, I know exactly what Galeon is. I also know that it’s a waste to load XUL only for this freaking scrollbar but hell, that doesn’t make or break the browser for me. This is actually the only thing that I think should be improved to increase integrity. I don’t care about HTML forms, because it’s nice to have the browser rendering HTML forms so as a webdesigner you don’t have to face the headache of user themes and can actually design those (just like in IE). There are pro’s and con’s to this approach but it’s not bad in general. Saying Galeon is no browser because it embeds Mozilla is still a joke. That’s like saying Konqueror is no browser because it embeds KHTML to render webpages or Evolution has no mail editor because it embeds GtkHTML for that task.
“d) buttons got changed in gnome 2. all apps i met during the past years on linux and other systems were OK/CANCEL now with gnome we get CANCEL/OK now lets assume that a lot of people using mixed applications under gnome how do you think they are getting confused ? one time the ok button is left the next time its right and so on. do you seriously call this usability ?”
Yes. I followed the discussion when they decided to go for this button placement and I completely agree. It’s just the right thing to do. Unlike the OK/CANCEL placement, there is actually a thought behind it. If everyone else doesn’t care and just blindly copies the weirdness that is Windows, I doesn’t have to do or like the same. AFAIK MacOS has a similar button placement. If you prefer similarity to other certain desktops, this is your choice but it doesn’t make another choice bad.
“e) we are getting people in our gnome channel every day that rant and complain why all preferences are beeing hidding in that windosregistry kind of shit called gconf.”
Some people just have paranoia. The “windowsregistry kind of shit” is actually nothing like the windows registry and very convenient to use. I took a look at it and immidiatly had no problem changing some settings and finding what I was looking for. There were always trolls though who disliked it just because it’s similar to something created by Microsoft that is supposed to be bad.
“f) you said a unique looking preferences section. thats not true. why are some prefs window popping up centered in the desktop and why are others popping up top left ?”
? I don’t understand. What has window placement to do with the look of it? Those Gnome preference dialogs are supposed to be embedded into Nautilus anyway. Not yet though.
“g) consistent lookign apps ?”
No I didn’t say that. And I don’t believe that consistent looking apps are a must have. I once believed in this, but thinking about it… I figured that I don’t want to have my MP3 player look and act like my ICQ messenger or Email client.
“h) open a flooting panel on your desktop place 1-2 launchers inside and then remove the arrows from it. now tell me how you access the settings of exaclty that panel.”
I will try this… maybe. But what do you want to prove with listing details like this? If you think there is something lacking, why don’t you tell the developers, I’m sure they will listen. If you don’t care enough because you don’t use it anyway, why the fuck do you feel the need to bash them? My point is that Gnome did a lot of research in usability and it shows in many places. _I_ found it to be very convenient and I could do whatever I wanted without searching for it like I had to do with KDE. I comment the project for their efforts and hope that some will copy some of those ideas (instead of copying Microsoft). I’m fully aware though that there are still many details left out for Gnome and it’s not very integrated (or “clean”) at all. That’s part of the reason why (like I said) Gnome is not all I want in a desktop. Far from it.
> a) Hmm might be, I never noticed that. That is probably
> because Gtk doesn’t work with fixed pixel spaces but
> with more dynamic placement. Maybe this would be worth
> changing, dunno.
it is possible.
> b) It may be unfinished but it doesn’t lack anything
> that I would need. What exactly is it lacking so you
> wouldn’t be able to use it in a productive way?
its not the matter of what is needed its a matter of fact that it is not finished in terms of following all known windowmanager specifications that were described on opendesktops.org
> c ) Believe me, I know exactly what Galeon is. I also
> know that it’s a waste to load XUL only for this
> freaking scrollbar but hell, that doesn’t make or break
> the browser for me. This is actually the only thing that
> I think should be improved to increase integrity. I
> don’t care about HTML forms, because it’s nice to have
> the browser rendering HTML forms so as a webdesigner you
> don’t have to face the headache of user themes and can
> actually design those (just like in IE). There are pro’s
> and con’s to this approach but it’s not bad in general.
> Saying Galeon is no browser because it embeds Mozilla is
> still a joke. That’s like saying Konqueror is no browser
> because it embeds KHTML to render webpages or Evolution
> has no mail editor because it embeds GtkHTML for that
> task.
honestly i know galeon perfectly myself. i used to contribute a lot of code for it. well yes actuall mozilla must be a joke otherwise there wouldnt be the need of galeon. i hear you saying things like ‘galeon is a light webbrowser’ … my reply would be ‘depends on mozilla and galeon 2 depends on 72 libraries from gnome’ really light
> Yes. I followed the discussion when they decided to go
> for this button placement and I completely agree. It’s
> just the right thing to do. Unlike the OK/CANCEL
> placement, there is actually a thought behind it. If
> everyone else doesn’t care and just blindly copies the
> weirdness that is Windows, I doesn’t have to do or like
> the same. AFAIK MacOS has a similar button placement. If
> you prefer similarity to other certain desktops, this is
> your choice but it doesn’t make another choice bad.
no they didnt copy the weirdness of windows, they macified that shit.
> Some people just have paranoia. The “windowsregistry
> kind of shit” is actually nothing like the windows
> registry and very convenient to use. I took a look at it
> and immidiatly had no problem changing some settings and
> finding what I was looking for. There were always trolls
> though who disliked it just because it’s similar to
> something created by Microsoft that is supposed to be
> bad.
no you hadn’t any problems for the poor few apps that uses it now. wait until you install 40 apps then have fun searching the right keyvalues in it. i do have a problem. cd into your homedir and make a ‘du -sh .gconf’ report back how many hundert kb it eats. well for one user its nothing but on a large system with 500-1000 users its damn much.
> ? I don’t understand. What has window placement to do
> with the look of it? Those Gnome preference dialogs are
> supposed to be embedded into Nautilus anyway. Not yet
> though.
it has todo. since you can programically set centered windows. i dont see it why 50% of the apps are beeing centered and the rest of 50% not. either they are all following one way or not… this doesnt look professional to me.
> No I didn’t say that. And I don’t believe that
> consistent looking apps are a must have. I once believed
> in this, but thinking about it… I figured that I don’t
> want to have my MP3 player look and act like my ICQ
> messenger or Email client.
then why do we need a DESKTOP ENVIRONMENT then ? the purpose of a desktop environment _IS_ to supply a unified look. i am sick searching themes all the time for fucking apps. i am sick searching for nautilus themes, then waiting to get a matching gtk theme, then waiting to get a matching xmms theme, then waiting to get a matching gkrellm theme and then maybe galeon theme. thats playtoyshit and has nothing to do with professional programming and environmental producing of stuff.
> My point is that Gnome did a lot of research in
> usability and it shows in many places. _I_ found it to
> be very convenient and I could do whatever I wanted
> without searching for it like I had to do with KDE. I
> comment the project for their efforts and hope that some
> will copy some of those ideas (instead of copying
> Microsoft).
gnome is the correct example how much opensource can suck. gnome 1 was definately cool and had a nice vision but gnome 2 sucks. if there wasnt companies like sun, eazel etc. then gnome 2 would be a pile of shit (well its still a big pile of shit). comapre with kde3 they made all out of scratch, no fucking company involved into it and they are 2301493058ß13485813ß501395 steps infront of gnome. gnome will never reach quality of kde. point.
> I’m fully aware though that there are still many
> details left out for Gnome and it’s not very integrated
> (or “clean”) at all. That’s part of the reason why (like
> I said) Gnome is not all I want in a desktop. Far from
> it.
then switch to KDE3 you can have a well integrated desktop today… no tonight if you install now.
Care to explain why I’m a fool? Your reply for sure didn’t.
You know, this image is really fitting:
http://carcino.gen.nz/images/image.php/463c5922/arguing.jpg
So I’m not at all interested in arguing with you. If you aren’t either, than we could probably keep this reasonable or do you prefer a stupid flame that will make us both look like retarded idiots?
“its not the matter of what is needed its a matter of fact that it is not finished in terms of following all known windowmanager specifications that were described on opendesktops.org”
Fine, that doesn’t stop me from using it though, does it. This is completely besides the point btw, you can use either windowmanager you want.
“honestly i know galeon perfectly myself. i used to contribute a lot of code for it. well yes actuall mozilla must be a joke otherwise there wouldnt be the need of galeon. i hear you saying things like ‘galeon is a light webbrowser'”
No you don’t… I like Galeon because I like the interface better than the one of Mozilla. Both Mozilla and Galeon are embedding the Gecko component. Both are webbrowsers.
” no you hadn’t any problems for the poor few apps that uses it now. wait until you install 40 apps then have fun searching the right keyvalues in it.”
I don’t see the problem. I click on “apps”, then search my application and that’s it. Of course this isn’t as convenient as having a simple preferences dialog but it allows you to have all kinds of weird options without cluttering the preference dialogs.
” it has todo. since you can programically set centered windows. i dont see it why 50% of the apps are beeing centered and the rest of 50% not.”
Hm. I just tried it, all the dialogs are opened in the screencenter and all the applications are opened in the topleft (maybe this isn’t optimal but I don’t know) or at the place they were closed. BTW, window placement is still mostly done by the windowmanager.
“then why do we need a DESKTOP ENVIRONMENT then ? the purpose of a desktop environment _IS_ to supply a unified look.”
I have a unified look, a unified toolkit and appearance. Does that have to mean that every application should look the same? I don’t know any desktop besides of KDE that has this attitude. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, I’m just saying I don’t care and you said I would care so what. I don’t. If you do, I don’t care either.
And this has really nothing to do with themes. There is only one Gtk theme. If you are sick of searching themes, I suggest you to use the standard look. D’oh.
“gnome is the correct example how much opensource can suck. gnome 1 was definately cool and had a nice vision but gnome 2 sucks. if there wasnt companies like sun, eazel etc. then gnome 2 would be a pile of shit (well its still a big pile of shit). comapre with kde3 they made all out of scratch, no fucking company involved into it and they are 2301493058ß13485813ß501395 steps infront of gnome. gnome will never reach quality of kde. point.”
Very unimpressive piece of flaming.
Those troll-arguments where already old and overused in 2001. Your constant use of “suck” and “fuck” won’t save it.
“then switch to KDE3 you can have a well integrated desktop today… no tonight if you install now.”
What about “I’m not a Gnome fan” didn’t you understand? I can’t _switch_ you flamehead. I’m not even using my Linux desktop most of the time. The last desktop I used prior was KDE 2. Go figure. I will certainly take a look at KDE 3 as soon as there are Debian packages and I’m sure it will rock as always. I’m sure I will still don’t like the interface very much. Who cares. I’m waiting (and help whereever I can) for something new. Currently I have better things to do than arguing with other people about which desktop is the best of the world. But people who bash other free software that is a joy for many other people just completely and seriously piss me off.
Well, I just tried what you suggested with the panel and getting to the preferences was easily possible by clicking on any border of the panel (yes I removed the hide buttons).
Gnome2 is more than one year old late,
Just plain wrong.
Like most free softwares, it will be released when it’s ready. Any given date is just given to stupid people who keep asking “when will you release ?”. And then the same people complain when the scheduled date is changed.
Parasites.
> Like most free softwares, it will be released when it’s ready.
Yet another reason why Free Software will never take over Microsoft or even Apple then. For the rest of the reasons, read JoelOnSoftware.
>Parasites.
Idiots.
This article at PCLinuxOnline is _really_ bad … Did this guy even bother to try out a version of the KDE > 1 before comparing it to the GNOME?
He states that KWM is the window manager of the KDE. That is not true since release 2. The window manager is now KWin.
Please, people who write articles: first get a clue, then write …
(No, this is not a flame – but I simply hate such ignorant articles.)
“Yet another reason why Free Software will never take over Microsoft or even Apple then.”
Who cares? Free software will survive and grow. If that’s not enough for you, don’t use it. If you can’t wait for something to get finished, maybe you should help or pay someone to do it for you. That’s how free software works and will always work. It doesn’t have to rival Microsoft and Apple just yet, just surviving as a competitor is more than 99% of all other companies in the world can claim to have succeeded in. It’s really not about “taking over” anything, it’s about providing a free alternative. Or two.
Oh, so one tiny naming mistake makes the entire article bad? Over the years, I had grown accustomed to referring to KDE’s window manager as KWM. When it came to writing the article, I simply forgot it was now KWin. It was an accidental slip-up, nothing more. Does this affect the arguments raised in the article? No, it does not. You could delete the whole sentence containing “KWM” and the integrity of the article would not be affected.
I have used all versions of KDE since 1.0 (including 3.0.1) for lengthy periods of time. The article was based on my experience. However, it is not a KDE-bashing article. I like KDE a lot, but I just happen to like GNOME a bit more. I get peeved when people make ignorant statements about GNOME, and I was simply addressing those comments.
Perhaps you should actually read and comprehend the article before making accusations.
(No, this is not a flame – but I simply hate such ignorant posts.)
Like most free softwares, it will be released when it’s ready. Any given date is just given to stupid people who keep asking “when will you release ?”. And then the same people complain when the scheduled date is changed.
Firstly, GNOME said the final release won’t be late after delivering RC1 late. And they haven’t changed their schedule when I submited the story. Sure, at least they didn’t ship a buggy piece of software like KDE did for KDE 2.0 (admit it; it was buggy).
(No, this is not a flame – but I simply hate such ignorant posts.)
Notice most flames carry some comment like this… (kidding).
Yeah, that guy was pretty ignorant.
Gnome has the support of SUN and will replace CDE on future solaris versions. KDE that was intended to replace CDE failed to do so. moreover, now that every sun box will run Gnome i cant see gnome fade away.
not to mention the kick ass apps for Gnome:
Gimp , XMMS , Galeon , Evolution , Dia , Abiword
OpenOffice , Gnumeric , Gnucash , Gvim , RedCarpet
and GPMM !!!! (Gnome Portable Mp3 Manager)
Yet another reason why Free Software will never take over Microsoft or even Apple then.
Where’s the problem ? I will use Free Software as long as it’s good and I expect “x.0” versions to be good. I can always use development versions, or these -rc. You’re just complaining about version figures. You want the current Gnome ? Get this rc, that’s it. And you can use KDE or any other desktop you prefer, thanks to free software we do have many different desktops.
But probably, for people like you, Linus should say today “Well, it’s been a long time since our last stable release, then I’ll tag the latest 2.5.x as “2.6” tomorrow”. Putting “final” version numbers doesn’t make the software good or stable, are you aware of this ?
Free Softwares improved by releasing development versions and releasing stable versions “when it’s ready”. You’re just asking to stop this, and to use the loser proprietary methods (release on the scheduled date) that only produced crap. Free software is more and more used because it still uses the original development method.
You have nothing to complain about in the development process. If you’re not happy with it, don’t use these “oh obsolete!” free softwares and go use your bleeding-edge proprietary crap.
You care about taking over MS or Apple ? You want another monopoly or something like that ? Go ahead, create your system and your softwares and compete with them. Free software developers work for them and for their users. Not to compete with others. That doesn’t prevent the free solutions to be the best ones, many people find them easier and more efficient.
Gnome has the support of SUN and will replace CDE on future solaris versions. KDE that was intended to replace CDE failed to do so. moreover, now that every sun box will run Gnome i cant see gnome fade away.
Sun is using GNOME over CDE. Yet they are loosing more and more of the UNIX workstation market. Besides, KDE was never made was a CDE replace; the same for GNOME (it was created to replace KDE mostly).
Gimp , XMMS , Galeon , Evolution , Dia , Abiword
OpenOffice , Gnumeric , Gnucash , Gvim , RedCarpet
and GPMM !!!! (Gnome Portable Mp3 Manager)
Firstly, I see XMMS as nothing more than a WinAmp clone.
Then Dia has absolutely no features Kivio has; and they both suck (obviously) in comparison is Visio. Then AbiWord has less (believe it or not) features than KWord; and the only big thing they pulled off is making a native version for a long of platforms. OpenOffice.org is NOT a GNOME application; it doesn’t use GTK+ nor any GNOME library; and its UI is totally inconsitent with GNOME. Plus, there is the same level of integration with KDE as in with GNOME for OpenOffice.org; so there isn’t any difference in running.
Galeon on the other hand has no additional features in comparison with Qt-based Opera (except being Free Software and very inconsistent). Evolution is nothing more than a Outlook clone; I prefer KMail plus KDE PIM; but that’s personal preferences. Gnucash may be the best finance management tool for Linux; but it has a very clunky interface; and since I’m no accountant; whenever possible I use Quicken on Windows. Red Carpet is very nice; and I mean very nice – but then it has slow servers even with subcription. But nontheless; it is the best out there.
So, in conclusion the only useful GTK+ app is GIMP (which made GTK in the first place).
But probably, for people like you, Linus should say today “Well, it’s been a long time since our last stable release, then I’ll tag the latest 2.5.x as “2.6” tomorrow”. Putting “final” version numbers doesn’t make the software good or stable, are you aware of this ?
You aren’t getting it, aren’t you? Just say the second last 2.5.x kernel was release a week late; but Linus said 2.6/3.0 would come out as plan. But then on the planned day of the release; he releases another RC. Well, he would recieve the same amount of bitching as GNOME is getting now. But this is even worse, the dot.plan still says yesterday the final release suppose to come out.
You care about taking over MS or Apple ? You want another monopoly or something like that ? Go ahead, create your system and your softwares and compete with them. Free software developers work for them and for their users. Not to compete with others. That doesn’t prevent the free solutions to be the best ones, many people find them easier and more efficient.
Actually, GNOME wasn’t created by GNU philosophers and a brainwashed ex-Microsoft employee (kidding) to make a desktop for themselves. They created it because KDE was under a license at that time not free (as in free speech..) In fact most, if not all, GNU software are created with the same reason.
You aren’t getting it, aren’t you? [blah blah] But this is even worse, the dot.plan still says yesterday the final release suppose to come out.
There is no release announcement. That’s not something difficult to understand. YOU are responsible for what you understand from the dot.plan. You were wrong in believing release dates can’t be modified. Has anyone seen a “Here is Gnome 2.0 final” announcement ? No.
They created it because KDE was under a license at that time not free (as in free speech..) In fact most, if not all, GNU software are created with the same reason.
No. Readline for example.
Anyway, this reason is included in what I said “Free software developers work for them and for their users.” since for these developers and users, proprietary softwares are not acceptable.
gnome 2 will be shiftet once again.
I have been alternating between KDE and Gnome for several years, and seem to have finally settled on KDE (for the time being). KDE just seems to be a more coherent, complete desktop experience. Oddly, most of the best apps seem to be written with gtk, so I seem to be using mostly Gnome-based apps such as Evolution, Mozilla and Red-Carpet (although I no longer use Gnome, I downloaded Ximian’s minimal install just to get Red-Carpet to replace Mandrake’s brain-dead Mandrake Update). Like it or not, it looks like KDE is well on the way to obsoleting Gnome (unless A Miracle Occurs). I wish the developers of some of the wonderful gtk apps would consider porting them over to Qt/KDE. I’d certainly like to see a KDE based Nautilus (probably one of the most beautiful apps I’ve ever seen, even if it is buggy), Evolution and Mozilla. And a company like Ximian could probably make a good buck creating custom versions of Red-Carpet to sell to creators of other distributions, since most of the native updaters/software managers are a major PITA. It’s sad to see, but I have to agree with Eugenia’s evaluation – KDE is dusting Gnome as the desktop of choice. If I were in the business of creating Gnome apps, I’d be looking to get my stuff ported over to KDE.
See, I thought basically the same just a few months ago. You will change your mind again. Like everybody. And it will just be a matter of time when you will finally make up your mind and understand that no Free Software is obseleting another popular Free Software anytime soon. As long as there are people enjoying it. Look at XFCE. Far from beeing obsolete. And there are still loads of people enjoying Gnome.
well i switched to kde totally and dont use one single gnome app anymore. gnome basically sucks. to say that gnome is offering the best apps is plain wrong. gnome applications are individual apps that is they work on their own only without changing data between them. if i use evolution for example then i cant share my addresslist with e.g. balsa or i cant share my shedule with gnome-pim for example (its a bad example but a valid example)
now that every gnome app works on their own, this means that gnome apps basically sucks since they reinvent the wheel over and over again.
on kde for example.
– i have my bookmarks in koqnueror, in the startpanel, in the mainpanel and kbookmarksedit
– i have my addresses in kpalmsync, kaddressbook, kmail, kandy
– and countless more features that you detect when playing with the power of kde
now look evolution for example…. my main purpose for evolution would be (as example) to edit emails only, then why do i load up all the other crap too ? 90% if not more are writing emails….
not to name the countless bugs that is still in evolution and makes mailing sometimes become messy.
another error in evolution that has been reportet several times is the addressbook data inconsistence… the database is getting bigger and bigger. no matter if you delete addresses or add new ones, the database is growing like shit. even entries are written double really often.
when composing emails you get annoyed e.g. you have more blinking coursors in it one in subject one in addressbar one in the body itself. now sometimes it happens that you point your mouse on the subjekt to change it and then you point to the body and click it to give it the focus and now by mistake place the mouse back to subject then instead writing into the body you write into the subject line again.
I wish the developers of some of the wonderful gtk apps would consider porting them over to Qt/KDE.
Why would they waste time doing this ?
GTK apps run perfectly well if your environment is KDE, so why porting them ? The developers chose GTK for good reasons (it is the standard : most distros use it for their tools even if KDE is their default desktop), and Qt is really horrible. Maybe you like it, but some don’t.
Something more interesting would be a standard for these toolkits, on top of either Qt or GTK, and then you would choose Qt if it’s what you prefer. Until then, several toolkits competing without interoperability problems (I’m not talking about the desktop part, just the toolkit) is better than one unique graphical interface (see the consequences on the poor GUI in Windows).
Gnome just go away! Let’s eliminate the fuel for this arguement altogether. Less gnome would make for less arguments that nitter-natter on and on. Miguel de Icaza should move on to other things than trying to bastardize gnome with mono code. Not much originality there and it just feeds the ammo dump at M$.
There is no release announcement. That’s not something difficult to understand. YOU are responsible for what you understand from the dot.plan. You were wrong in believing release dates can’t be modified. Has anyone seen a “Here is Gnome 2.0 final” announcement ? No.
The problem is that unlike KDE when they postpone a release, they change the schedule before hand. Also, Gnome said they would release Gnome 2 on June 21st as planed after releasing RC1 late. In fact, on June 21st; instead of telling why it was postponed on Gnotices; they just told that RC2 came out. In the release notes; they didn’t bother to acknowlegde that Gnome 2.0 Desktop Final was later.
The release dates can be modified, but as of now, the dates HAVEN’T been modified.
GTK apps run perfectly well if your environment is KDE, so why porting them ? The developers chose GTK for good reasons (it is the standard : most distros use it for their tools even if KDE is their default desktop), and Qt is really horrible. Maybe you like it, but some don’t.
I can only think of Mandrake when I heard GTK+ used for their tools why KDE is their default desktop. This is because there isn’t any QT bindings for Perl, as of now.
And there would be speed increases with less libraries open; so if a port to Qt happens; it means better speeds on KDE. Also it would be consitent with the KDE platform; UI wise.
As for QT is really horible.. you are the first I have heard to say that. Even GTK+ developers (on #gtk at irc.gnome.org) say it is very clean and nice. However, GTK+ developers prefer GTK+ because, well, C bindings for QT sucks… after all, QT was and is made for C++. So instead of just saying it is horrible, would you mind saying *why* it is horible?
(Note: I’m not a fan of QT)
Gnome just go away! Let’s eliminate the fuel for this arguement altogether. Less gnome would make for less arguments that nitter-natter on and on. Miguel de Icaza should move on to other things than trying to bastardize gnome with mono code. Not much originality there and it just feeds the ammo dump at M$.
Hmm, this is actually funny. The funniest I have read at OSNews so far.
Lets see; let’s get rid of Macs as that is the main flamewar over here. Let’s get rid of .NET and Java as it is a target of flamewars…
Oh, and as for Mono code; GNOME does not have ANY Mono code and does not support .NET in any way. As long Sun has a part of the GNOME Foundation; I would doubt that would happen. In fact, the only similarities is that Mono uses GTK+ widgets and they have the same founder.
And what is so wrong of using stuff MS allows every to use. The .NET under the EMCA; the one Mono is implementing, would be completely free (as in royalties) even if MS abandons it.
Yeah, i know I should feed the trolls.
Anyway, this reason is included in what I said “Free software developers work for them and for their users.” since for these developers and users, proprietary softwares are not acceptable.
You can’t really rewrite history. It is a fact GNOME wasn’t written because GNOME developers wanted a desktop made for themselves and was tired of KDE. But the fact it GNOME was created because QT and KDE was under a GPL-incompatible license QPL (which is anyway Free Software anyway, RMS just said it was incompatible with GPL)
KDE was under a GPL-incompatible license QPL (which is anyway Free Software anyway, RMS just said it was incompatible with GPL)
Sorry, but that’s not right. The QPL is a non-free GPL-incompatible license. This is the main reason for GNOME being founded, as you have pointed out. It was only in 2000 that TrollTech decided to dually-license QT under both the GPL and the QPL. You can use QT under the GPL if your resulting work is GPL-compatible and for *NIX. In all other cases (e.g. on Windows) the QPL is used. Since 2000, RMS has not opposed QT, since it is GPL. In fact, he welcomed the license change.
why the fuck do you care at all ? now that you gnome suckers lost any argumentations why gnome is better than kde you start bashing the widgetset. dude QT is now free. i can use it, i can install it, i can compile it … end…
and the shit offered by kde is more usable than gnome…. end…
gnome is fallen back with gnome 2 not only 1 year… its around 5 years they are back now…
KDE’s trolls are the best… end…
well… is this everything ?… i expected more from brainless gnome zombies….
I suck at trolling.
you dont suck, you only have no further or valid arguments thats all….
…. uhm yes you suck too…
You don’t have arguments either. You are a troll, acting like a 12 year old dumbhead. Face it, some people here are grown up and don’t enjoy “X rocks, Y sucks” flamewars.
I installed KDE 3 yesterday and still don’t like the interface (which didn’t change the slightest since KDE 2). There is no argument for or against it. One day you will understand that there is something called personal preference. I never questioned KDE’s technical merits, it’s just not my thing. End. Gnome isn’t really either but I like the interface better (it’s lacking other things).
I will not further waste my time with narrowminded people.
you dont get it. i offered valid arguments that you have tried to ignore or better you tried to fool them. its not about personal preference or something. you are simply an ignorant person.
by the way dont try starting to insult me by calling me a narrowminded person. i have a academical grade and developed for gnome. i only realized that i wasted my time with gnome since it goes nowhere.
if i quote your sentences then you seem to be unhappy yourself e.g. “gnome is missing something” or as in your last reply “its lacking other things” thats a sign that you are missing a lot of shit yourself. face it gnome sucks.
You don’t get it, you can have as much grades as you want, that doesn’t make you a less narrowminded person. I’m not unhappy because I’m not really a Gnome user. I’m not a KDE user either. I want bash KDE, KDE is way superiour in many areas, where Gnome lacks. I really don’t give a shit which one of those desktops is “better”, I made the simple point, that IMO the usability of Gnome(2) is very good because you claimed this would be an especially week point (see beginning of our dumb flamewar). You also suggested to use a “real” windowmanager and that’s what I called “braindead”, because I usually run several Gnome tools on top of such a “real” windowmanager so I don’t see the difference. I apologize if you thought the “braindead” also applied to your opinion about usability, I just wanted to adresse this too while I was at it. Look at this thread, many people commented Gnome for it’s increased usability.
Get it? Saying “Gnome sucks” just makes you look like a child. I’m not an ignorant person because I like it. That really makes no sense. I would be ignorant if I would refuse to look at KDE or try new versions but I don’t. I check every new version and know what a well done desktop it is (how couldn’t I, most of the KDE devs are german and I’m german too, so it’s all over the place here).
aka I know you are but what am I? Ok someone needs to post another article so we can continue the gnome crud more without having to scroll down the OSN page so far hehe.
Seconded!
but well.
the biggest problem of gnome are IGNORANT developers. i have never seen a more disgusting place than their irc channel. if you join in and ask for help, or recommend some changes then you get immediately put on /ignore
gnome is not meant for the masses it’s meant for their own developers. why don’t we all show them to plug gnome into their ass where it belongs too ?
^^^^