Pine64 has announced that it is finally shipping the PinePhone, a smartphone that takes the rare step outside the Android/iOS duopoly and is designed to run mainline Linux distributions. The PinePhone starts shipping January 17 in the “Braveheart” developer edition.
An interesting device for sure, and the dip switches on the motherboard that act has hardware kill switches for things like the microphone and camera are pretty neat. I do take issue with the “Linux-powered” as if that’s some unique quality or anything. Save for the odd iPhone, every single smartphone in the world runs Linux.
Maybe not in a form that adheres to your no true Scotsman idea of Linux, but 100% Linux nonetheless.
This sounds like it’s not consumer ready, but it’s right up my alley and at the right price too!
I might be temped to try a mainline linux phone if I were in the market for a new phone. That being said, I don’t know how viable this phone is without android apps (like my carrier’s visual voicemail, thermostat app, gps apps, etc) and I’m not sure it’s possible for a new phone platform to overcome the duopoly market.
I’m no Scotsman, but I feel that if it were “100% linux” then I shouldn’t have trouble flashing a genuine mainline linux kernel onto android hardware. Maybe we could say that android is more of a linux derivative? I know google’s been pushing their changes upstream, I don’t know how many differences remain though, and there’s always the issue of binary blobs. Can we compromise and call it 99% linux? 🙂
That definition eliminates a lot of ARM hardware. People can be ARM zealots all they want, but I don’t understand it. ARM hardware companies want a very toxic, codependent relationship, and that’s not the way to go. I look at ARM hardware, but I always end up with x86 hardware at the end of the day.
I don’t consider Android a Linux. It’s the way MacOS borrows stuff from the BSDs, but really, it’s own thing. Android uses the Linux kernel for things, but it doesn’t draw from the same pool as all the other Linux distros. It doesn’t strive to be a Unix clone. Porting the usual posix/unix/linux/whatever software doesn’t really work that well.
People could, and do, argue that it doesn’t matter. A Linux distro is the Linux kernel plus whatever libc and userland the producer would like. Linux with the GNU userland and libc is common and the de facto standard. Linux with the GNU userland and an alternate libc happens frequently. I’m not sure if Linux plus a BSD userland has happened; probably, for five minutes. Anyway, it’s always fairly easy to port the traditional tool stack no matter the combination.
It’s probably not viable as a person’s only phone, but it’s perfectly viable for experimentation. You pretty much know you’re getting a barebones, DIY kit for the hackerspace crowd when you order stuff from Pine64. 🙂 They’ve done some work to collect working hardware, and it’s on the purchaser to collect or build the rest of the parts.
This will probably never be mainstream, but it’s nice for people who like to tinker with things.
Flatland_Spider,
Yeah, that’s fair.
I hear that. Android is not really linux in practical terms and macos isn’t not really bsd in practical terms, though both are clearly derivatives.
Long ago I had the idea of unifying android & linux development. I wanted android to work like any other server in my automation tooling, but so much is missing on the android side that it felt like paddling up-river. I tried installing an APK that offered “debian on android”, but parts of it were broken and besides a very primitive shell experience it wasn’t up to my expectations. There’s no reason it couldn’t work with more effort to fill the gaps, but there’s been so much divergence in tooling that things didn’t carry over well IMHO.
I’d expect it to be like an Odroid or raspberry PI, not really refined as an end product, but a very good base skeleton on which to build on. I would expect the hardware to be fully supported by the mainline kernel though, otherwise it looses a lot of appeal for me.
That was a poorly formatted thought on my part.
It’s fairly easy to port tools and things between Unix-like operating systems and Linux distros with different combinations of components.
We’re on the same page with Android. It’s useless as a real Linux distro.
They have mainline kernel support, and they even have BSD support. 🙂 The project and community have been really good about getting their code upstreamed.
From the PinePhone page: “Powered by the same Quad-Core ARM Cortex A53 64-Bit SOC used in our popular PINE A64 Single Board Computer, the PinePhone runs mainline Linux as well as anything else you’ll get it to run.” (https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/)
“This will probably never be mainstream, but it’s nice for people who like to tinker with things.”
I think about that a lot these days. Most companies are looking to get the billion user market, but back in teh day, the computer market was much smaller (as was the video game market), and plenty of companies still made a living. These days most of the investment goes in to gory war sims, to hit the mass market, but I bet smaller, focused titles could still work even if they target a much smaller market (maybe that explains the success of the indy market). This may hold true for other types of markets, like configurable smart phones. I mean, why not? Of course it’ll never be mainstream, but why does it have to be?
There’s nothing wrong with serving small niches. Most companies work on the small scale. They make enough money for the principles involved to afford nice things and pay a few employees. If they’re involved in a billion dollar industry, 1% of that is quite a bit of money.
I was talking with someone who is heavy into the entrepreneurial scene, and his thing is it’s a big market. The money is out there; people just need to go get it. Granted that is easier said then done, but it’s still true. 🙂
I am very happy the PinePhone exists. 🙂 I myself would be interested in a phone which can be upgraded, like PCs, that doesn’t run Android or rely on third-party systems (Apple, Google).
This the last piece of the cellular provider puzzle. There are software projects out there for running base stations and the rest of the needed gear, IPv6 is plentiful, hosting is cheaper, and now we have an open cellphone.
People may even use this to start their own company, and they probably will. In two years, there will probably be a company selling PinePhones prebuilt and preloaded for people who want a GNU/Linux phone. They will probably never challenge Samsung or Apple, but they don’t have to be. They just have to be sustainable.
I stand by my perspective. When people colloquially say “Linux” vs. “Android”, they’re talking about what the vendor pushes as the primary userland API and/or ABI.
Whether musl-based distros count as Linux depends on whether you’re judging by Linux kernel + POSIX + X11 (API) or “Runs my Linux Steam/GOG.com/etc. games” (Linux kernel + glibc ABI + X11).
> Save for the odd iPhone, every single smartphone in the world runs Linux.
You can pat yourself on the back given the back, while everyone with Android development experience knows it pretty bogus what kernel Android is using.
Java based userspace does not care what kernel it is running on.
While the C and C++ SDK, aka, is composed by a mix of ISO C and ISO C++ standard libraries, Android specific native APIs and a couple of portable libraries.
Calling Linux syscalls might seem to work, except they aren’t part of the NDK stable APIs and no guarantee is given whatsoever to work across devices.
Since Android 7, Google has started to put in place sandboxing for NDK code to kill apps that try to use such APIs.
Finally since Project Treble and Project Mainline, the Linux kernel has been reduced to a tiny box where a modular set of drivers (microkernel style) and libraries run on, creating yet another set of separation layers to the Linux kernel.
So the hard truth after patting yourself on the back, is that unless one is an Android OEM or has a rooted Android phone, there is little to no Linux to be seen.
Even projects like Termux are mostly based on general purpose POSIX features, whose applications need to be patched to run on Android.
I never understood the obsession with something being based on the Linux kernel. Unless you are in HPC sector, you shouldn’t care about the kernel, as long as it works. Microsoft replaced the kernel in Windows Vista with a Windows Server 2003 kernel and nobody noticed. In fact more people complained about 64-bit laptops not loading 32-bit drivers than the kernel change.
The whole talk about the Linux kernel has been a smokescreen to distract from the fact Linux Desktop still runs X.org and ALSA or PulseAudio.
It’s an IT version of “moving the goal posts” by “the year of desktop linux” people. They can’t admit desktop Linux is a complete failure, but saying Android uses it allows them to retain some sense of false superiority without actually doing anything.
Fanatics are fanatics, and they like rooting for their team.
X.org is being phased out for Wayland. I’m running on Wayland right now. 🙂
PulseAudio sits on top of ALSA. PipeWire may be finally deprecating both of those.
Yep. Linux is there because the JVM never grew into a full OS.
It sure did, if you are willing to pay for bare metal JVMs like those sold by Gemalto, PTC and Aicas.
Interesting.
The problem word there is pay. 🙂 I’m not interested in Java when it’s free, so I’m definitely not going to pay for it. XD
Just let this part from the article sink in:
Because the Purism Libre 5 hardware needs to be as open and freedom-focused as possible it couldn’t use the typical supply chain that exists for Android phones, The PinePhone is less averse to binary blobs and is a lot closer to a normal smartphone.
The Purism libre 5 is a device that is very thick (16mm), hot, and expensive, at $750. The PinePhone has a more reasonable thickness (9mm) and a more reasonable price: $150. They could both end up running the same software one day
There is a price to freedom and it isn’t cheap
Yes. Idealism vs Pragmatism. Perfect vs Good.
The price of employing credible technologists to write stories apparently isn’t cheap either.
The Pine64 community has done a good job of getting their stuff mainlined, and the Pine64 hardware is widely supported by many operating systems besides Linux.
Yes, because they are both upstreaming their changes, and all the projects are publicly available FOSS projects. The PinePhone is going to help Purism and vice versa.
“I do take issue with the “Linux-powered” as if that’s some unique quality or anything. Save for the odd iPhone, every single smartphone in the world runs Linux.”
GNU/Linux and Android indeed both use Linux, but the similarity ends there. Pinephone and Librem 5 are two phones targeting GNU/Linux. Pinephone ATM being a bit more pragmatic concerning the inclusion of (drivers) binary blobs. In addition on the one side you have a company named Google, on the other the rest of FOSS community. What i am trying to say is this are two whole different worlds and if you desire you can educate yourself more on the subject. For having a more elaborate opinion in the future. To have a basic idea on why a successful GNU/Linux powered phone could be a good thing for society and for free and open source ecosystem.
‘kurkosdr
I never understood the obsession with something being based on the Linux kernel. Unless you are in HPC sector, you shouldn’t care about the kernel, as long as it works. Microsoft replaced the kernel in Windows Vista with a Windows Server 2003 kernel and nobody noticed. In fact more people complained about 64-bit laptops not loading 32-bit drivers than the kernel change.
The whole talk about the Linux kernel has been a smokescreen to distract from the fact Linux Desktop still runs X.org and ALSA or PulseAudio.’
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What smokescreen? Pretty much why the ‘Linux Desktop’ still runs X.org and ALSA or PulseAudio because unlike Wayland and the other crap, the aforementioned actually works,which is something people like you don’t seem to get.