Last week, I wrote about my first impressions of SUSE Enterprise Linux Desktop 10, after only a day of usage. I was quite impressed by the whole package, claiming that “I can confidently say that this release candidate outshines Windows Vista’s beta” and “I’d even go as far as to say that even Apple should be worried”. I still stand by those two statements, but after a week of daily usage, some reflection on just how much it outshines Vista or how worried Apple should be are justified.
As I said in that article, it is difficult to draw any sane conclusions on a product’s quality after only a day of usage. Many bugs and annoyances usually rear their ugly heads after a longer period; SLED 10 has been no exception.
Package management in SLED 10 is handled by Novell’s ZENworks. However– it is extremely buggy and unreliable. Right after the release of the preview many users complained about dependency problems in SLED with a batch of updates the ZEN-updater wanted to install. This issue took a few days to fix, with proposed patches coming and going; in the end, about 11 patches of the original 47 or so were left, and they installed fine.
During the past week, the updater has given me lots of database errors, making it impossible for me to use the graphical method of installing individually downloaded .rpm files, forcing me to use the command-line method. As if this was not enough, the last few days, three of the four updates sources magically disappeared from the updater, while they are all still showing in YaST2!
To sum it up, Novell needs to put some serious effort into bug-fixing the new update/install tool, as it seems to have some serious bugs that simply stain this otherwise above-average distribution.
Xgl also has its bugs– two, specifically, are systematic and can be reproduced easily on my machine. The first one is the least annoying: after going through a sleep/wake cycle for the first time after a fresh reboot, tiny stacks of 5 pixel wide lines appear atop of my screen.
A second, far more annoying bug in Xgl is that, also after the computer’s first sleep/wake cycle, the top half of the screen sometimes goes completely black. Just like that. It is only the top half, never the bottom one, and the only remedy is to ‘paint’ the original screen content back by drawing a window over it or by spinning the famous Xgl cube.
Speaking of the spinning cube, I would like to say that the wrapping of virtual desktops around a 3D cube finally brought me to using virtual desktops. I never got around to using virtual desktops because they lacked a place, they lacked ‘presence’ to me. When you wrap them around a cube, however, they suddenly have all the presence needed, and within a few minutes, each side of the cube had gotten its specific task (one is for instant messaging, one for email, one for browsing and current tasks (i.e. writing this follow up article), and a ‘spare’ one where I dump Banshee, Xine, or similar).
However, there is one feature I dearly miss, and I hope it will find its way into the final or at least a future version of SLED: the option to confine applications to virtual desktops. For instance, in my current SLED setup, when someone sends me an instant message, Gaim’s conversation window will pop-up in my current desktop, instead of it popping up in the desktop I have the Gaim window running in. This is quite annoying as it kind of destroys the purpose of virtual desktops (moving tasks away from you current one so you are not distracted).
SLED also has serious issues concerning multimedia, especially video-wise. As most GNOME-based distributions, it comes with Totem installed, and, well, that is about it; Totem is installed. It does not do anything, refuses to play any video or DVD, even with the proper codecs and usual Linux DVD packages installed. You are basically forced into using Mplayer and Xine, and even though they are not bad applications or anything, they do not integrate well with the GNOME desktop in any way.
Last, but definitely not least, I would like to touch on the subject of wireless drivers. My Inspiron laptop comes with a Broadcom wireless chip, so I figured I would just use the open-source drivers of it in combination with the firmware cutter; I have done that a million times before for this laptop, so it was a routine job.
Or so I thought. Apparently, the kernel used in SLED does not come with the bcm43xx driver; this driver has made its way into the vanilla Linux kernel in version 2.6.17-rc2, while SLED 10-rc3 comes with 2.16.20. Since I am in the middle of moving to my new apartment, I simply have no time to go through all the troubles of compiling it myself. Hence, I tried the sissy route by using ndiswrapper; again, this turned out to be a no-go. The ndiswrapper module loads fine with the correct Windows bcm43xx driver loaded; however, after setting it up correctly (I checked about 128374 different guides on this to confirm I was not making a mistake) using YaST2, it refused to work in any way– either via command line or via Network Manager.
I had similar problems using a Sweex PCMCIA wireless card which uses a RaLink chipset. Another minor issue: my internal SD card reader does not work; it does on Ubuntu.
—
So, let me sum up the positive and negative aspects of this 3rd release candidate of SUSE Enterprise Linux Desktop, version 10:
Positive:
- Good, intuitive menu applet;
- Xgl;
- Xgl’s Exposé and wobbly windows gives windows a physical quality;
- Lack of ‘ducktape feeling’;
- Virtual desktops made easy.
Negative:
- YaST2 needs a Gtk+ frontend;
- Buggy patch/package management;
- Annoying Xgl bugs;
- Lacking video support;
- Out-of-date kernel leading to lacking wireless support;
- ndiswrapper appears to be broken.
All in all I still find SLED one of the best, if not the best, Linux distribution you can use today. However, the bugs I encountered after a week of intensive day-to-day usage should have been ironed out by now; broken package management, for example, should not be allowed to rear its ugly head during RC stage. Can it fix the above issues, Novell has a real winner on its hands. Definitely one to keep an eye on.
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“I simply have no time to go through all the troubles of compiling it myself.”
Yet you found time to read one hundred twenty-eight thousand three hundred and seventry-four guides instead?
Yet you found time to read one hundred twenty-eight thousand three hundred and seventry-four guides instead?
If the guides are all only like 4-5 steps, then yes. Other than that, welcome to the concept of a hyperbole
.
compiling kernel will take no more than 15 min on not that new computer. He could also turn other options switched off by default which will improve user’s experience. So his excuses are not valid, this looks like he never compiled kernel. But that is o.k.
He wants to include 2.6.17-rc2. This is unreasonable request, as no serious distro will add release candidate kernel to the final version. I don’t think that suse developers have enough time to test and optimize 2.6.17 that was just released.
XGL is beta, so complaining about it is also not reasonable, better fill a bug.
What he should complain about is the fact that XGL is on installation DVD (suggesting that this is fully working, bug free software), so users expect working wersion of software not beta quality, unfinished product.
Yast PM module was o.k., all this mono/zen crap only slows down system.
In fact I removed: zmd, libzypp*, mono and now Yast works almos as it should however it requires manual synchronization with resources (this was not a problem in earlier Yast PM)
>He wants to include 2.6.17-rc2. This is unreasonable >request, as no serious distro will add release candidate >kernel to the final version. I don’t think that suse >developers have enough time to test and optimize 2.6.17 >that was just released.
That’s why leaving users without a simple way to add new drivers to already deployed kernel sucks balls.
I’ve had the same experience as Thom when trying Dapper on a new Inspiron E1405 that carries a Broadcom chip. Just won’t work. [Works great though with the Intel PW2200.] And recompiling the kernel … I’m no newbie, but that puts me off because it’s a production machine and I can’t afford to have something go seriously wrong. I’ve compiled plenty of programs from scratch, but never had the courage to tackle the kernel. Maybe my fears are groundless and it seems more scary than it is. I don’t really know.
I’ve had the same experience as Thom when trying Dapper on a new Inspiron E1405 that carries a Broadcom chip. Just won’t work.
Weird, as Dapper’s kernel includes the bcm43xx driver and as such getting it to work (fw-cutter) should be fairly straightforward.
I thought so too, but I tried several how-to’s to no avail. But I don’t think I tried the fw-cutter tool. I’ll do some more poking. I was about to send the Dell back and get a different machine with the IPW2200 chip, since wireless is critical for me.
As I said earlier, just get driverloader while waiting for the new Linux wireless stack.
But I don’t think I tried the fw-cutter tool.
Without cutting the firmware… You cannot use the bcm43xx open-source driver. This driver REQUIRES the firmware be cut from a Windows or OSX driver file. You cannot use it without it, so I guess you have been looking at the wrong guides. Here is a link to a guide I always adhere to when setting up Ubuntu:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/Driver/bcm43xx#head-34d55…
With that, you can’t really go wrong. Good luck!
I never got around to using virtual desktops because they lacked a place, they lacked ‘presence’ to me.
That’s because you don’t do any programming. If you programmed, you’d understand why they are so useful.
In fact, that’s the ONLY reason virtual desktops are useful to me. I have found putting separate apps on separate desktops to be more confusing and a pain than anything else.
Virtuall desktop a la xgl is good looking.Quad console http://freshmeat.net/projects/quadkonsole makes it even better in my opinion.
How is quadkonsole any different than having four terms up at once?
My preference is to have a term per system with screen running in each term. Since I have my linux desktop and an OpenBSD system I work on regularly, I tend to have two terms up. I can do as much as I want from those two terms using screen.
My experience with naive users is quite different.
You show them in the abstract, and they can’t understand why they would want this, never having had it before. Then, they ask you for help in doing something, and if you are used to virtual desktops you automatically leave their own window untouched and open a new one to (eg) find a file or start another app, look something up on the net. You do this three or four times, and they start doing it too, and wonder how they ever managed without them. One user for instance was working on a project, entering data in a spreadsheet each time she completed a task using an image processor/scanner. Why have the windows overlapping and concealing each other if you don’t need to? Another, a secretary, just keeps the email/group calendar always open in one window, and switches instantly from Office as needed without clutter or having to restart apps, and the window is exactly how it was left.
As soon as you show them, they realise how easy it can be. But you do have to demo it
If you introduce new users to Linux, this is something it is really worth spending 10 of your precious training minutes on. They will thank you.
Edited 2006-07-06 13:07
I’m the same way. I like having all my apps in one desktop for quick and easy access since I switch between them so often.
But alcibiades’s post above does bring up some good and useful points about how to use virtual desktops. I never really understood what they were for but he gave me a better idea and I’m willing to give it a try to see if it makes me more productive.
I don’t program at all and I find this feature usefull, something I miss at my Windows XP machine. I like to divide my apps in categories, like: 1 desktop for browsing and e-mail, 1 desktop for music, 1 desktop for office, work in general and 1 totally free desktop, to be used when some clear space is needed quickly.
to be used when some clear space is needed quickly.
What do you need clear space for quickly?
I do this as well. I like to have a desktop that’s clear, when I need to do some file browsing for example. I also have gkrellm on my desktop, and I switch to that desktop when I want to check the CPU load/net activity. I could use the “Desktop” applet, but I’ve grown used to doing it this way…old habits die hard! 🙂
On my laptop I use four desktops: one for e-mail, one for Konqueror, one for Word, and one (clear) one for everything else (sicne these are usually temporary tasks).
Edited 2006-07-06 15:45
I unno, anything… Like burning a CD, quickly editing an image, etc… Any quick activity not related to the other desktops. As I get confused with too many entries on my toolbar, I prefer to switch to a clean desktop.
Edited 2006-07-06 16:22
That’s because you don’t do any programming. If you programmed, you’d understand why they are so useful.
This is the reason I use wmi as a desktop manager. It has three really nice features: tiled window layout, directional window nav, and the app launcher. More or less everything else about the window manager annoys me, but for switching between 6 terminals, it can’t be beat.
agreed as I’m typing this from wmii myself (version 2). really not something I’d want to be using at home, but at work, as a unix admin, it really is the best out there for me. create new workspaces on the fly with a quick ctrl-alt-y, new terminals with alt-t (though I mapped out a different combo for my preferred xterm setup), alt-h and alt-l for switching between the workspaces, ctrl-alt-p to bring up an autocompleting list of all your executables in your path… the ability to quickly switch between different layouts (grid, floating, tiles and a pager) with quick keystrokes is incredibly handy.
plus a bunch more of things you can do.
very, very nice stuff.
One of the better things about Novell Linux Desktop, SLED’s predecessor, is that every so often Novell have been releasing service packs with bug fixes and heaps of new features. The SPs come with supplemental install media as well as the standard ability to upgrade using Yast Online Update (though with SLED this will be ZENWorks Updater).
Unlike other distro “updates”, the NLD SPs have been binary-compatible with the base release, reducing much of the normal administrative overhead associated with Linux updates.
If SLED follows this trend, some of the niggling bugs that remain may well be fixed for SP1 (though let’s hope they are fixed for the gold release!), which given Vista’s ever-moving release date, may well be before Microsoft finally ships its new Windows client.
There’s a nice Gnome utility, Devil’s Pie, that does just that:
http://www.burtonini.com/blog/computers/devilspie
rehdon
Great!
I think the single weakest point of both SLED 10 and SUSE 10.1 is the libzypp and zen stuff, they really SUCK!
I’ve given up on all that crap and I’m currently using yum on my sled and suse machines, but I think novell should get this in shape before releasing, because this is a major hole, especially for new users, and annoying to say the least, for frequent users.
I can’t bring myself to use ubuntu on my main desktop, but I think they hit a jackpot on their package management: the tray updater is simple to use and works perfectly, the add/remove programs app does the job for simpler things, and synaptic has all the other stuff when needed. Kudos to them, best desktop package management EVER, that ANY user can use.
So, here’s to hoping that novell fixes this once and for all, so we don’t have to have some people using yum, others apt4rpm, others smart, others xpto because there’s no single good enough one to “replace them all”.
P.s.: Interestingly, they had a very good gui package manager, that they bought from Ximian, Red Carpet, that was very good and I used it on suse 9.3 (from 10.0 on, they stopped providing redcarpet repositories), but they seem to have forgotten about it in this rush attempt and making a new one in a few months.
Edited 2006-07-06 12:11
I can’t bring myself to use ubuntu on my main desktop, but I think they hit a jackpot on their package management: the tray updater is simple to use and works perfectly, the add/remove programs app does the job for simpler things, and synaptic has all the other stuff when needed. Kudos to them, best desktop package management EVER, that ANY user can use.
Dead on.The archilles heal is package management and it sucks.
But zmd has it’s purpose when you see the greater picture.Think zenworks http://www.novell.com/products/zenworks/
Being compatible with active directory,thus being able to direct installation,patchmanagement,(roaming) profiles,security (AppArmor) by central policy,corporate wide is an real asset.The key is where the most money comes from for Novel to continue and that’s the corporate world.Furthermore SLED 10 is a good example of a clean unclutered corporate desktop.Though there are still obstacles to konquer.
P.s.: Interestingly, they had a very good gui package manager, that they bought from Ximian, Red Carpet, that was very good and I used it on suse 9.3
They largely integrated Red Carpet into ZMD. Red Carpet was never a great bit of software no matter what distro you used it on, and displayed many of the same problems that ZMD does now, particularly when updating already installed packages and resolving dependencies. Yet another piece of unfinished and unstabilised junk that was never a great success at all, especially considering that YaST actually worked and there are other systems around like apt and Smart.
YaST was always the package manager in Suse Linux, and although not perfect over the years, it seemed to have got much better from Suse Linux 9.0 onwards.
As I suspected, these seemingly small practical problems are going to completely scupper the very few customers of SLED as they come to use it more.
Actually when I meant red carpet, I meant the graphical gui, not the daemon in itself, and while they reused stuff from the red carpet deamon, they added these new gui’s that are really sub-par (for now at least).
But yeah, yast was kinda good too, not very good for managing lots of external sources, but when you needed it, it always worked.
SLED also has serious issues concerning multimedia, especially video-wise. As most GNOME-based distributions, it comes with Totem installed, and, well, that is about it; Totem is installed. It does not do anything, refuses to play any video or DVD, even with the proper codecs and usual Linux DVD packages installed. You are basically forced into using Mplayer and Xine, and even though they are not bad applications or anything, they do not integrate well with the GNOME desktop in any way.
I don’t know about SLED but in SUSE 10.1 all it took to get Totem to play most of the file types I’ve come across (and this also gives you working video thumbnails) was to install xine-based version (1.5.something i think). …Or maybe I did something wrong with the gstreamer-based one, but anyway – that’s how i’ve solved this problem.
Also, if you want an app that will integrate with gnome desktop better than xine or mplayer – use VLC (with wxWidgets interface). I rarely use Totem due to very limited configuration it’s GUI provides, but it’s still worth to get it working for those nice thumbnails 🙂
But really, lets get real, SLED 10 is an amazing distro, I am using it now, and I cant see so many bugs that existed in other distros. its stable and nice. I would not use Microsoft products if Novell continue is trend.
Couldn’t agree more. I have entirely ditched WindowsXP and I’m delighted to use Suse on my work PC.
The final things that would make it perfect (not just amazing) are:
* Full support for adding external screens (projectors) and configure on the fly [ATI’s latest driver allows hot plug but will only do mirroring of the first screen which isn’t really my preferred mode. I’m sure someone knows the status for Nvidia?]
* Little higher stability on plug-ins. E.g. Nautilus is slightly unforgiving (send-to, smb etc may too easily crash Nautilus)
* There’s something odd going on in terms of blocking. Application workflow & file access sometimes block for other apps, which I find directly unimpressive considering it’s 2006.
* Yep – better HW support out of the box. I’m not bitching this one, but I still would like to see webcam’s, bluetooth phones/PDAs, SD/XD/MMC-slots to work directly out of the box. I have managed to get almost everything on my laptop work, but that has required too much effort really.
Novell – flex your muscles and keep movin’ !
be chosen in stead of Gnome when installing SLED 10.0?
> be chosen in stead of Gnome when installing SLED 10.0?
Yes.
Yes KDE can be chosen at install time instead of GNOME. If you choose to install KDE you still end up with quite a lot of GNOME/GTK libraries installed as dependencies.
be chosen in stead of Gnome when installing SLED 10.0?
A lot of their customers like it, so it would be pretty stupid to lack such an option.
That’s probably why every distribution other than UserLinux has KDE available
For me at least, problems with package management and wireless are deal beakers when choosing a distro. I know that this is not a final version, but I would not be willing to swtich from Windows or Mac with the hopes of a future service pack that will solve some glaring issues. I have been a bit surprised with Suse post 10.0; there have been a lot of bugs and a lot of talk about pushing SLED 10 as a true Windows/Mac replacement in the workplace. OpenSuse 10.0 gave me one of the best experiences right out of the box, yet things seem to have gone wrong since then. Here’s hoping they can right the ship.
Edited 2006-07-06 12:45
Yea, update/patching client mulfunction is a deal breaker for me too. Wireless isn’t that much of an issue, because I can hack together some sort of a solution based on the stuff I find on the net. The problem with updater client is that I would have to know everything about every single thing that is installed through it if I am to be sure things get patched and installed correctly, and that is simply too much to keep track of for me. I need to be sertain that when I update something, it will succed, and not break anything.
+1
“P.s.: Interestingly, they had a very good gui package manager, that they bought from Ximian, Red Carpet, that was very good and I used it on suse 9.3 (from 10.0 on, they stopped providing redcarpet repositories), but they seem to have forgotten about it in this rush attempt and making a new one in a few months. ”
I believe they somehow integrated Red Carpet functionality into ZMD… don’t ask me how though, but I think I read that somewhere.
May I suggest buying Linuxant’s driverloader instead of using ndiswrapper? I’ve had great success with it, and it’s not too expensive (20$ lifetime license).
Just a note : the same functionnality is also available under KDE.
Just do a right click on the title bar and Advanced -> Settings for the application
There you will be able to preset many windows settings ( fullscreen, maximaze, desktop, … ) for the application ( i.e each time OpenOffice is launched, or Firefox, or konqueror, … ) or the window ( from window name, etc … ).
This way when you dedicate an application to a desktop, when the application is launched, it will automatically go the the defined desktop and with the defined settings. This is really powerfull and usefull when using virtual desktop.
What exactly is the difference between this and Suse 10.1?
I’ve been using SLED since the release and I thing its a great and stable system, probably better than vista which lasted only 6 minutes on my computer. With that said the major issues which I have to complain about are, package managment system (majority can agree) and the ability to add any multimedia support. What I mean is that I must of reinstalled xine and totem 10 times and I still can’t get it to play anything(pretty much useless). I installed Kaffein and it was able to produce sound but not play any video. And I know this is a business desktop but someone needs to realise that down the line alot of people may install and use it on their home desktop. This was the case with Windows 2k. Furthermore, there are businesses that deal with certain media such as divx or xvid and it would be nice if Novel made, somehow, an option for those users that need it, the ability to add those things without redoing the whole multimedia on that desktop. Besides that I found not many bugs though after I install software the menu says it stops responding and needs to reload. I am assuming that is necessary.
Edited 2006-07-06 15:05
Just add the packman repo like in SUSE 10.1 if you want codecs. I dont think enterprise desktops will need to be watching movies anyway.
“Just add the packman repo like in SUSE 10.1 if you want codecs. I dont think enterprise desktops will need to be watching movies anyway.”
Sure they will, if the desktop happens to belong to management or sales/marketing types. For the secretaries no, but for those 2 groups, which deal highly in multimedia these days, then yes, they need to watch them as well as create them.
I did add packman rep. and it did not work.
I did add packman rep. and it did not work.
It worked here. Just be sure you use YaST2 to install all those packages, as the packman repo is incompatible with zmd (*sigh*, why is Novell insisting on reinventing the wheel with zmd, instead of just using a proven technology, it is starting to bother me more and more as time passes by).
I did it and it did intsall but the problem is that totem won’t play any files and when it opens it has weird lines going through it. As for Kaffein which i installed from packman it plays the sound of the video but not the video itself.
I did it and it did intsall but the problem is that totem won’t play any files and when it opens it has weird lines going through it. As for Kaffein which i installed from packman it plays the sound of the video but not the video itself.
As said in the review, Totem sucks butt. Install Xine and Mplayer, they will play everything effortlessly. Mplayer even has a Firefox plugin.
Yep. When I installed it I found the same problems. Bizarrely, I couldn’t install it in VMware because it just froze the VM so I had to use real hardware. Probably a better bet for testing it out.
I chickened right out of Suse Linux 10.1 because of the packaging problems, so I tried to get much more into this ZMD thing with SLED. It really is junk, and it is way, way slower than YaST (when it works that is) – and that’s saying something. The patches have stabilised it slightly, but it is still excruciatingly slow and still hase problems resolving dependencies. The KDE applet for ZMD seems to be making progress, but I doubt I’ll be using it any time soon.
Considering how long YaST was worked on over the years to turn it into a pretty stable bit of software, both configuration and software installation wise, I think it’s going to take years again to stabilise ZMD and Zenworks. It certainly makes me cagy about using Suse now considering they had a working solution already.
Additionally, it will take years again to produce a GTK front-end for YaST. It took long enough to stabilise the Qt version. Considering that Gnome is supposed to be their enterprise desktop, and they’re supposed to have gone all GTK I wonder why a GTK YaST is only a Google Summer of Code project.
They’re also not clever enough on handling multimedia formats. Either they need to find a way of supporting some prorietary ones or they’re going to have to work out a way of pushing open formats that can be legitimately used out of the box.
The KDE applet for ZMD seems to be making progress, but I doubt I’ll be using it any time soon.
Actually, the KDE applet is progressing very well. There’s two extremely promising points they’re working on: a) The ability to use zypp without requiring that mono-lithic bastard zmd which is somewhat of a reasonable compromise and b) The ability to use different backends such as Smart for dependency resolution and installation.
I installed it to try it out, it works but the additional functionality isn’t built-in yet, it still requires zmd, which doesn’t work. But it’s nice to look at with it’s well constructed design as it sits there unable to do anything useful for me yet.
The other interesting thing was the perspective of the developer working on it, it was apparently his first time working with kde libraries and he fell off his chair when he saw how quickly he was able to put together the preliminary version by leveraging kde’s framework.
SmartPM has worked well enough for me in the meantime, but I’ll just be happy to use some form of native package management without my system being crushed by mono. I fully expect my poor little overworked laptop fans to shoot across the room and flee in terror every time zmd is awoken and my resource useage spikes through the roof.
The other interesting thing was the perspective of the developer working on it, it was apparently his first time working with kde libraries and he fell off his chair when he saw how quickly he was able to put together the preliminary version by leveraging kde’s framework.
I was amazed at the speed the developer got something working and the complementary things he had to say about kdelibs:
http://madpenguin.org/blogs/raven/index.php?/archives/12-In-Praise-…
I am totally agree that SLED 10 is a very good Linux system, maybe the best distribution out there, but i don’t see why Apple should worry!!
Worry about what? That mac users will start to use SLED 10 instead of OS X? That’s more than unlikely that a significant number of mac users will prefer SLED 10. Compared to OS X its really still not there. OS X offers much better users experience, it is more usuable, the interface is better designed, key technologies like search are better integrated, it offers more user friendly features, etc…. I am sorry but when it comes to compare SLED 10 with OS X, SLED 10 is much a mix of ripp off of some features in OS X. And again don’t say me that the ripp off of Expose in SLED 10 is usuable, its almost not compared to the real Expose. Also compared to OS X its does not work out of the box for everything and it lacks good application that are really usuable, etc, etc, etc….
OS X offers much better users experience, it is more usuable, the interface is better designed, key technologies like search are better integrated, it offers more user friendly features, etc….
Yeah, but can you run OSX on a USD 399 Dell? People can switch from Windows to SLED for USD 50. In order to switch from XP to OSX, they will have to shell out USD 649– for a new machine.
SLED is close to offering the same kind of integrated user experience that OSX offers– it’s not there yet, that is why I so clearly emphasised that Apple should be worried, not scared. I can assure you– if people see Vista, OSX, and SLED running side by side in the shop (level playing field, that is), where the respective price tags are (?) USD 200 (what does XP retail cost?), USD 649 (price of a Mini, from the top of my head), and USD 50… And they all have roughly the same applications, offer the same functionality, and the same slickness… Who stands a better chance?
NEVER forget to count in the price argument.
And they all have roughly the same applications, offer the same functionality, and the same slickness… Who stands a better chance? ….
Thom, while I agree with most of what you have said, I have to say that in general the applications that ships with the Macs are much easier to use and better integrated than both Windows and Linux (no comparison).
However, I was also very impressed with SLED and agree that it really is opening eyes everywhere. The price is not bad either.
“NEVER forget to count in the price argument”
Price argument has NEVER count for mac users anyway.
Thom, how about a review of your experience with SLED10 vs Dapper (if you’ve used the latter much)? Since these seem to be the two heavy-weight distros these days (no disrespect to Fedora, Gentoo, Debian, ArchLinux, Slackware, etc. etc.), it would be interesting to see how they stack up against each other. I’ve been using Ubuntu since Warty (when I switched from Windows to see if it could be done, and never went back) and haven’t really considered switching to another distro because I actually work full-time on my Ubuntu machine and can’t afford to be toying with different distros on a regular basis. However SLED 10 is the first one that’s caught my attention enough to consider a possible departure from Ubuntu.
novell should just buy canonical. mash the 2 distros together and it would be amazing. i really like the look of novell’s gnome though. but apt-get is really nice. choices!
I’m not sure I agree. Novell’s SLED seems to have learned a thing or two from Ubuntu.
…Except for, of course, the powerful and flexible package management, of course
Competition is likely why SLED is where it is today. Because of Open Source, chances are we’ll see a lot of improvements rolled into other distros as well.
It looks like it’s going to be an even more exciting year of the linux desktop than last….
package management is from debian
What would this be that sled learned from ubuntu?
Providing different compiler version that the one used for kernel? Problems with partitioner? Problems with xfs? Or maybe hype?
+1 Thank you very much for saying so!
Ubuntu obviously got something right…
I’d never discount the power of hype on the computing industry. Ever.
Duh, everyone knows Apt is from Debian. Ubuntu packaged everything together in an easy to use, integrated, free (beer) package – and people have responded in droves.
My comment meant to point out that Novell was watching and has taken some of the polish, integration, and SIMPLICITY (above all else, simplicity seems to be key)…and created what we can hope to be a success.
ThawkTH:
Novell’s SLED seems to have learned a thing or two from Ubuntu.
Question:
What would this be that sled learned from ubuntu?
ThawkTH:
Ubuntu obviously got something right…
that is not the answer to my question.
Hype:
“Exaggerated or extravagant claims made especially in advertising or promotional material”
Ubuntu has nothing really unique. Not a bad distro, but definitely not a paradigm. On the other hand Ubuntu got XGL (from Novell)
Ubuntu 5.04 would not install on SATA, once installed on PATA, I had (known) problems with compiler, I deleted Ubuntu (slow), before su weakness was published (so called worst security hole in the linux world)
Personally, I don’t believe hype.
Yes, if polish, integration, and simplicity = hype.
The most integrated and polished distro I had ever encountered before Ubuntu was Mandrake 10.1 – and I found it to be overcomplicated and dog slow.
So no, you misquoted me completely. Also, you fail to take into account that I can speak only from my own experience, much of what I state being my opinion.
Oh, and I never said Ubuntu created any great/new technologies. I know XGL is from Novell (as would most users). What I did say is they packaged them together in a way that most people find intuitive, easy to use, and convenient. That’s new in the Linux world, at least in my experience.
“Yes, if polish, integration, and simplicity = hype. ”
I have used Ubuntu since the first release and I have used SLED for a week now. And i have to say there was a lot of hype around Ubuntu. Don’t get me wrong Ubuntu is a great distro but talking about polish, integration and simplicity SLED is ahead. I have to agree with Thom about the “ducktape” analogy. The only area were at the moment stock Ubuntu outshines stock SLED is the package management (stock meaning a fresh install). Having said that, this is easily aliviated by using SMART, in which case they are on a par.
SLED is faster, more polish, more integrated and more stable (even the beta). Dapper killed my wireless when i upgraded, even though it worked perfectly before, it took me a lot of evenings to fix it … not sth. i would expect from an enterprise offering.
The only other thing that seems to be better in Ubuntu is the community around it (i might be wrong though). the development process seems to be more transparent, i guess sth. that SuSE, even before the NOVELL days struggled with. openSuSE doesn’t seem to attract as much attention in the developer community … but as i said i have no hard facts for this, just a impression.
If Novell bought canonical, it would be the end of Canonical’s influence on Ubuntu (especially since the Ubuntu Foundation was created) unless Novell can convince the Ubuntu community that it will place Debian’s interests above its own corporate interests and it really does follow throw with it. That’s a pretty hard thing to do and even Canonical has had trouble at times. Frankly, I don’t expect Novell to be able to do it. Even Red Hat, which as had a “pure open source” philosophy from the start and sided with Debian many times would likely not be able to.
Canonical is a small company that gets most of the mindshare for its projects from the community. It would be an expensive purchase for Novell.
If Novell was planning the migration from RPMs to the Debian system, it would make a lot more sense to do what MEPIS did — use the Ubuntu repositories and use the money it would save from the purchase to port their management tools to Ubuntu and create a SUSE to Ubuntu upgrade procedure.
OTOH, even this might not make sense. Many of SUSE’s tools (e.g. YAST2) have deep dependencies on “the SUSE Linux view of the world”. Porting these to Ubuntu would be a pain, as would coming up with a SUSE to Ubuntu upgrade (think about all the custom modified config files). It would need to do this in such a way that it wouldn’t alienate their own customers as the Ximian purchase (before SUSE’s purchase) did.
Like it or not, Novell really has only one option at the moment — fix SUSE Linux’s issues. If it wants to eventually move to Ubuntu, it can only be done in several releases that slowly reduce the differences between Ubuntu and SUSE until upgrading and porting is easy.
In other words, don’t expect a radical change any time soon.
Another typical OSNEWS post, boastfully proclaiming a big Linux win based on arguably the least-important features of an OS, and with absolutely no depth to it at all.
Could you run Word on Wine out-of-the-box? Did it work with your printer? Could you login through the Windows Domain Controller and Active Directory? Did it run your corporate, custom VB apps? Could you get your Exchange email?
Until you can do the above, you’re not ready for the “Enterprise,” no matter how nice the screenshots look and how easy it is to find a file! Big deal dude! Browsing for files with semi-transparence isn’t getting the job done faster or better, so why exactly does a business need it again?
so why exactly does a business need it again?
I don’t recall me proclaiming this release was ready for businesses.
I don’t recall me proclaiming this release was ready for businesses.
Well that’s what it’s supposed to be for.
…true, and I should expound on this.
My contention is that, if the OSS community desire for alternative OS’s to catch on at the desktop level, where Microsoft and busineeses are clearly king, we must provide a reason and way for businesses to migrate effortlessly.
A nice new semi-transparency effect on the desktop does nothing to further the Linux cause.
No, but integration, flexibility, proffessionalism, and a support structure from a strong and trusted name does MUCH to further the Linux cause. Many businesses will take note of Linux for the first time…
I do believe SLED will go down in the annals of Linux history as a truly great distro. Perfect? Not nearly. Groundbreaking? It would appear so.
Could you run Word on Wine out-of-the-box?
Haven’t tried Wine, but if you needed to use it Crossover would probably have to be included. Answer is no.
Did it work with your printer?
Yes.
Could you login through the Windows Domain Controller and Active Directory?
Can authenticate against it, but if you use group policy to manage Windows desktops then you’re not going to be able to use it to manage your Linux desktops.
Did it run your corporate, custom VB apps?
No.
Could you get your Exchange email?
Sort of. Evolution picks it up but it can do some odd things with the calendaring and groupware side of Exchange. Same as it’s always been with the Exchange connector.
so why exactly does a business need it again?
Unfortunately, a question many will ask.
Suse had an enterprise desktop before they were taken over by Novell, and it had stuff like Crossover installed and was able to run Office and Photoshop. It was an unmitigated disaster as no one bought it, and got nowhere near the sales of Suse Linux Professional.
If Novell want to be a part of this enterprise then they’re going to have to think around these problems, drive support for open standards like Open Document, allow people to convert to those formats and create a market for their desktop before they get anywhere near the enterprise.
If they don’t try and do these things it will just be a long road of providing Active Directory and group policy features in their desktop, fully supporting Exchange, getting Windows applications running and chasing after .Net compatibility. This will in turn make things even worse, as Microsoft’s formats and protocols are cemented even more. When they stop working in Novell’s products with successive versions of Exchange or AD Novell will be blamed.
All SLED can hope to be is a Windows replacement, and you just can’t win there.
Well? What do you ask for? Word, Windows Domain Controller, Visual Basic, Exchange.
And printers.
Ok, enterprises use good printers, mostly postscript-capable-ones, so printers shouldn’t be any issue at all.
About the rest. You only asked about Microsoft products. Right, this is kind of “state of the art” for enterprises; but seriously: There are many of them, esp. small to medium-sized businesses, which are also looking out for a whole environment without MS at all, because of the costs, where they are fine with the alternatives around from competitors/open source.
I don’t think Novell aims for enterprises which would install “some” Linux desktops. It’s more for “total converters” or alike. These will be very happy with this and need this.
The time is right; it was indeed not some years ago. Your right, the review isn’t talking about what is interesting for the target/audience.. But anyway, this could just be because this site has another audience than Novell with her product?
Not only that, but there are lots of “enterprises” that aren’t Microsoft shops.
Not only that, but there are lots of “enterprises” that aren’t Microsoft shops.
Bingo. The sorts of people who bought Suse Linux Professional and used it in their small business or as an individual because it was cheaper, did more than the comparative software they would have to buy – and because they could because they don’t have a massive existing dependency on Microsoft.
There are many of them, esp. small to medium-sized businesses, which are also looking out for a whole environment without MS at all, because of the costs, where they are fine with the alternatives around from competitors/open source.
Novell aren’t aiming it there, and the way they are selling it is hugely detrimental for getting foothold in that market.
I don’t think Novell aims for enterprises which would install “some” Linux desktops. It’s more for “total converters” or alike.
There are going to be very few, if any, total converters. This is why Novell has gone for Microsoft compatibility, to fit into existing Microsoft environments.
“Could you run Word on Wine out-of-the-box? Did it work with your printer? Could you login through the Windows Domain Controller and Active Directory? Did it run your corporate, custom VB apps? Could you get your Exchange email?”
Here is what I found:
Word – Did not run out of the box
Printer – Works put of the box with no issues. Actually was 3 printers, all HP laser, the only one that did not was the HP Color Laserjet 2600n
Windows AD/DC – Worked flawlessly to authenticate and access shares
Custom VB Apps – Of course not. If there are VB Apps that are relied upon, then you would not switch. Does not mean it is not enterprise ready, as more and more places are getting rid of the custom VB Apps.
Exchange Email – Flawlessly to include calendar functionality using Evolution and the exchange connector.
So yes, for most folks it coule be considered ready, but as in my other post above there are still issues in other areas where better functionality is needed. Multimedia is a thorn, as in the US we can not legally download the required codecs and such, we can get them, just not legally. I am mainly speaking libdvdcss here, for viewing of DVD’s. Not an issue if not in Marketing/Sales or Management.
as more and more places are getting rid of the custom VB Apps.
That’s a huge fantasy. Just about every enterprise of any reasonable size has custom VB applications used, and they’re not even going to be able to rewrite them in .Net.
“That’s a huge fantasy. Just about every enterprise of any reasonable size has custom VB applications used, and they’re not even going to be able to rewrite them in .Net.”
That is possible, but my experience says otherwise. The companies I have worked for over the last few years, ranging in size from 50 to 1000 employees all canned any custom VB apps. I do undertsand that there are alot of companies using them as well, but also in my experience they are not mission critical apps, and are normally used to do some mundane task that already exists on the unix side of the house. Again, that is just my experience, so of course yours may be entirely different.
The butt ugliest panel ever, what’s with all those crowded little icons on the end? There I said it and I’m not sorry, someone has to tell them.
ZMD is much better for installing/removing software(as easy as Windows). You dont need to put your password in each time and installing rpms is just a few clicks, unlike before where the only way was to manually install them(not a option for enterprise desktop) or use Konqueor(looks odd and out of place in gnome)
I’m sure it will improve as time goes on.
>Lack of ‘ducktape feeling’;
Do you mean duct tape?
I already claimed that package management in SUSE 10.1 and SLED and SLES sucked big time. But, switched to the great Smart (it is actually the best package management I’ve ever used on a Linux distro) and the problems are gone.
Posted my complaints to the OpenSUSE mailinglist and asked what Novell/SUSE was thinking… But one of the SUSE guys explained what the idea behind the new package managemt is (for the future), and I became a little bit less negative. The only problem is (and that they admit) that it is introduced too quickly.
When OpenSUSE 10.2 comes out we’ll forget all this stuff. As a long time SUSE user I still have some faith 🙂
You don’t even have a clue of what Leopard will offer, how can you say that …
You don’t even have a clue of what Leopard will offer, how can you say that …
If all goes according to release dates, SLED will be out roughly 4-5 months before Leopard. Your point?
Price argument has NEVER count for mac users anyway.
And that matters for people switching away from Windows, how, exactly?
“And that matters for people switching away from Windows, how, exactly?”
People switching away from Windows is not what will make Apple worried.
“If all goes according to release dates, SLED will be out roughly 4-5 months before Leopard. Your point? ”
As nobody knows the release date of leopard, you are very strong.
People switching away from Windows is not what will make Apple worried.
Let me make it really simple for you: each person switching away from Windows to Linux means one person less switching to Mac. Bad for Apple.
As nobody knows the release date of leopard, you are very strong.
Apple itself said early 2007.
So where _does_ SELD (not SLED AFAIK) now stand compared to Windows Vista Beta 2 and Mac OS X 10.4? Does Apple have to worry? From your negative points about SELD, I’d say neither have to worry at all. It’s just another linux distro with its pros and cons, but doesn’t make that much a difference. Right?
right.
So where _does_ SELD (not SLED AFAIK) now stand compared to Windows Vista Beta 2 and Mac OS X 10.4? Does Apple have to worry? From your negative points about SELD, I’d say neither have to worry at all. It’s just another linux distro with its pros and cons, but doesn’t make that much a difference. Right?
First, it’s SLED. SuSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 10 (ok, it’s SUSE, but I prefer the old spelling).
From my point of view, reading the reviews of Vista Beta 2, SLED 10 Beta (although it’s technically a RC), and OSX 10.4 (shipping OS with numerous bugfixes already), I come away with:
10.4: evolutionary upgrade of 10.3.
Vista B2: Not much to reccomend– It’s pretty, UAC annoys people, and it eats system resources like a black hole– But, it’s Windows, so you know it’s just a matter of time before people upgrade.
SLED 10: Most reviews are littered with superlatives, compliments and pleasant surprises (to the reviewer). A few gotchas, but overall, very promising.
Which of these three is getting the best press right now? SLED 10.
As for the package management, Novell is trying to deliver an enterprise-class package management system, which no linux currently has (Personally, I always felt Novell bought Ximian for Red Carpet, rather than Mono or Evolution). If they’re smart, fixing the zmd system is the absolute #1 priority within Novell right now.
I have installed SLED 10 RC3 on my hp pavilion dv8050ea, with wireless bcmxxx, and fully working in wireless via ndiswrapper, but not using NetworkManager, using traditional metod, and works very well. Also, i’m using it with WPA-PSK without any troubles
All XGL does is add a pretty spin feature to Virtual Desktops, so I don’t understand why the author says he is using them now and wouldn’t have before. You use them the same way (typically Ctrl+Alt+Arrow Key).
I tend to run a lot of stuff at the same time and when I’m on my laptop without dual monitors, I use the virtual desktops like it’s my job. My wife has been spoiled by dual monitors when it comes writing papers and such, but I haven’t been able to get her to adopt the virtual workspaces.
Installed like a charm on Compaq R4125ca.. ndiswrapper took all of a minute to configure, Broadcom wireless working great.
I really like what they’ve done here, quite a bit different than OSS 10.1. I’ve also been using Ubuntu since 4.x days. Both OS’s have their strengths and weaknesses, but SLED is far better IMHO.. plus I can install iFolder, GW Client and even the NW client painlessly.. a must for my company.
EP
You gotta love that new menu they made, it is pretty nice looking compared to the menu we are used to hehe.
If they fix what you said i may look into it, i am pretty sure when i tried the latest suse it had similair problems.
Still pretty good though as you said.