“Apple’s Switch campaign to woo Windows users to its own operating system OS X has been running in high gear lately. Apple also recently issued a major “dot-level” upgrade to OS X called Jaguar, in what some industry followers consider to be a catch-up move to many of the features found in Windows XP. […] If you ask me, OS X could stand a better chance of challenging Windows on the desktop than Linux does, or ever did.” Read the editorial at TechUpdate.
Could Macs Mean Business at Last?
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
When will Apple get it?
They already own the desktop in terms of DTP firms, creative people, and education.
There is no need to go after what they perceive as the “business desktop”, if they already have a reasonable cash flow.
I remember a few years ago that they had SCADS of money more than Microsoft could even dream of.
What more do you need? Total world domination?
They need enough people buying MACs so that maybe they drop the prices a lil’ so normal ppl like me can afford one and escapoe from X86 hell.
I agree. It would be nice to see a mac that I can afford
i wouldn’t give up the variety and usability of a PC to switch to an overpriced crayola colored mac.
and having potheads on commercials talking about the horrors that XP “has” won’t dissuade me either. my PC doesn’t eat my homework, i don’t understand their logic of “clunkyness” and surely won’t limit myself to a library of zilch.
No! Macs do not mean business! Windows owns 97% of the market. Windows has more apps and out performs Macs on lower cost, open hardware. Win2k Servers simply blow OS X server away (Features, Apps, Performance etc…)
>>OS X could stand a better chance of challenging Windows on the desktop than Linux does, or ever did.
Wrong! Apple will never seriously challenge Windows and Microsoft knows this! Apple is expensive, runs on proprietary hardware and does not add that much value. Linux is free! Runs on open platforms.
A brief synopsis of what’s to come:
Post 1:
I like Macs, they’re alright.
Post 2:
Macs rule! PCs drool!
Post 3:
Jobs can stick his candy colored overpriced boxes where the sun don’t shine.
Post 4:
I’ll bet you’ve never even used one, have you, PC zealot?
Post 5:
Macs SUCK! 1999 technology at 1990 prices.
Post 6:
I have too used them! I use them all the time! You’re an idiot, and anyone who uses Macs is an idiot too.
Post 7:
I think Macs could be ready for the business desktop. I just installed Jaguar on my 233MHz iMac and let me tell you, it FLIES!! Businesses could deploy iMacs and not have to upgrade them for YEARS!!
Post 8:
Macs are overpriced pieces of junk. The only people who don’t think so are Mac zealots. Steve Jobs is a pedophile. Your mom is fat and ugly.
Post 9:
You’re just a PC zealot! Macs are great. They’re no more expensive than anything else. Winblowz XP sux!
Post 10:
Windows XP works great for me. Macs work great… if you’re a pre-pubescent candy-loving retard!
Don’t you think that Apple’s CEO knows better the name of its company’s products?
wow thats a horribly written article. No real points in either direction. My old english teachers wouldve laughed me out of the room for ever presenting my arguements so badly.
Eug, I know this is a link to article news site, but could ya warn us about these garbage articles that look less proefessional that that of my old highschool newspaper?
figured I’d carry the reply to this article since the discussion is pretty much the same
“1) A system compiler included in the OS”
Your right windows doesn’t have one, but is it really needed? Probably not.
I take it you aren’t a Unix user. Its a major feature to be able to pass source to users and have them run make on a system compiler. I’ll chalk this one up to haven’t seen the other side.
“2) Free development tools (project builder)”
Also not on windows, but windows has so many developers (commercial, freeware, shareware, postcard, etc.) that your average user feels no need to write programs, if they do they can get tools.
Where it effects users is that things like the Aqua human interface guidelines are built right into the interface builder on OSX. The result is that applications are consistent even when written by totally different vendors. This reduces the learning curve for new applications considerably.
“3) A universal scripting language for all apps as well as system events (applescript)”
Extoll to us the virtues of this great invention, cause to be honest I have no idea what the hell it is.
Have you ever used word macros or shell scripts? Imagine having the same language for word, excel, command interpreters, and non microsoft apps like photoshop. That way you could write a script in 20 minutes to automate using i.e. to pull down photos from a website, apply effects in photoshop, and import them into a word document which is then served live by IIS. Yes this is possible in Windows but you would need to use:
1 – VB to interface with IE
2 – photoshop macro language for photoshop
3 – word macro language for word
4 – IIS scripting for IIS
“4) A standard sound/video format (Quicktime integration)”
If ms did that (making windows media formats the standard for windows) they’d get sued by apple and real. you see standardizing stuff is a different ball game when you have 90+% of the market.
Possibly true; but irrelevant from both a developer and a user standpoint. Its not a plus to XP that Microsoft decided to play hardass with the Justice department under the Clinton administration and turn a minor problem into a major one.
“5) A high power 3D library (opengl)”
I’m sorry but isn’t opengl supported by windows? Along with d3d? In fact doesn’t it run better on windows then mac? Course it does, pc = faster cpu more powerful gpu. [/i]
Its not a core component and this results in the following limitations:
Printing.
You can print an OpenGL image directly to a printer using metafiles only. For more information, see Printing an OpenGL Image.
OpenGL and GDI graphics cannot be mixed in a double-buffered window.
An application can directly draw both OpenGL graphics and GDI graphics into a single-buffered window, but not into a double-buffered window.
There are no per-window hardware color palettes.
Windows NT/2000 and Windows 95/98 have a single system hardware color palette, which applies to the whole screen. An OpenGL window cannot have its own hardware palette, but can have its own logical palette. To do so, it must become a palette-aware application. For more information, see OpenGL Color Modes and Windows Palette Management.
There is no direct support for the Clipboard, dynamic data exchange (DDE), or OLE.
A window with OpenGL graphics does not directly support these Windows NT/2000 and Windows 95/98 capabilities. There are workarounds, however, for using the Clipboard. For more information, see Copying an OpenGL Image to the Clipboard.
The Inventor 2.0 C++ class library is not included.
The Inventor class library, built on top of OpenGL, provides higher-level constructs for programming 3-D graphics. It is not included in the current version of Microsoft’s implementation of OpenGL for Windows NT/2000 and Windows 95/98.
There is no support for the following pixel format features: stereoscopic images, alpha bitplanes, and auxiliary buffers.
There is, however, support for several ancillary buffers including: stencil buffer, accumulation buffer, back buffer (double buffering), overlay and underlay plane buffer, and depth (z-axis) buffer.
Printing.
You can print an OpenGL image directly to a printer using metafiles only. For more information, see Printing an OpenGL Image.
OpenGL and GDI graphics cannot be mixed in a double-buffered window.
An application can directly draw both OpenGL graphics and GDI graphics into a single-buffered window, but not into a double-buffered window.
There are no per-window hardware color palettes.
Windows NT/2000 and Windows 95/98 have a single system hardware color palette, which applies to the whole screen. An OpenGL window cannot have its own hardware palette, but can have its own logical palette. To do so, it must become a palette-aware application. For more information, see OpenGL Color Modes and Windows Palette Management.
There is no direct support for the Clipboard, dynamic data exchange (DDE), or OLE.
A window with OpenGL graphics does not directly support these Windows NT/2000 and Windows 95/98 capabilities. There are workarounds, however, for using the Clipboard. For more information, see Copying an OpenGL Image to the Clipboard.
The Inventor 2.0 C++ class library is not included.
The Inventor class library, built on top of OpenGL, provides higher-level constructs for programming 3-D graphics. It is not included in the current version of Microsoft’s implementation of OpenGL for Windows NT/2000 and Windows 95/98.
There is no support for the following pixel format features: stereoscopic images, alpha bitplanes, and auxiliary buffers.
There is, however, support for several ancillary buffers including: stencil buffer, accumulation buffer, back buffer (double buffering), overlay and underlay plane buffer, and depth (z-axis) buffer.
“6) A server quality OS for $129”
Your actually right there, but I don’t know anybody running a site on an os10 box, I know several people running them on 2kpro and xp pro though.
Lots of people run sites on freebsd which is very similar in most respects. Expect this to change within a year, this has a great deal to do with OSX’s youth. As for Xserves these are also becoming quite popular and these aren’t being sold as desktop units.
“7) The ability to use a full featured server OSincluding easy configuration apps and no per seat licensing fees for a few hundred extra (apple osx server)”
Apple does have a better liscensing scheme, in some respects. Of course Ms isn’t charging for sp1 for xp, while I believe apple did with jaguar
Jaguar is similar to the 2000->XP Pro upgrade which is a paid upgrade. Service packs like 10.1.0->10.1.1 are free.
“8) A full functioning built in Unix (darwin)”
Windows may not include Unix, but since all unicies combined have fewer boxes then there are win98 machines I think being windows compatable is a tad more important (at least for desktop users). But then again if I wanted to use a *nix, wouldn’t I just buy a *nix?
With virtual PC macs can run Windows software. Again this is a list of things that Windows users don’t have; your original claim was that they had everything that Apple users have. If you want to weaken your claim to they have equivelent stuff that’s a different thread.
“9) A free X server/client that runs rootless (XonX)”
Big question for ya, who cares?
Anyone who needs to run X apps — given the sales of X servers for Windows this is tens of millions of Americans. You just aren’t among them. Now include all the people who buy “PCAnywhere” or the “Windows Terminal Server” to try and get the same functionality and you are talking millions more.
“10) iApps”
tried em, don’t like em, ergo not missing em.
Again they aren’t part of Windows…
a partridge in a pear tree!
>>By alexd
Well said ! ! !
Enough said.
Lets move on with our lives.
We can never have a good conversation on here without going into a PC vs Mac war. If I wanted to hear this rubbish I would have stayed with Slashdot.
But alas wherever there is an argument, the stupid and moronic have to emerge.
I recently was involved in my organisation’s IT training and I thought the following tidbit might prove insightful.
Our organisation employs approximately 5000 desktop pc’s numerous servers and a number of PC’s running as dedicated hosts in non-traditional pc areas. They are exclusively Windows based despite having used Macs early.
In a conversation I was having with a system administrator of our system about the cost of Microsoft products in the IT budget, he offered the following justification. “Yes we pay a lot for Microsoft system software BUT thats pretty much all we know, there are probably 3 or 4 ppl in IT who have ANY unix experience.”
This highlights what I see as probably the biggest impediment to the wholesale adoption by organisations of non-microsoft systems – one that definitely does not enter into financial considerations or cost comparisons. Apple cannot hope to win the battle for the desktop alone, winning the desktop back from Windows requires all the major Unix vendors to co-operate (which most likely will never happen). Microsoft has successfully adopted the tactic of divide and rule and until its oponents wake up, they will continue to own the desktop. Their victory is not really based on technical merit rather it is the culmination of years of entrenchment at the boot prompt.
Just my 2c worth
Don’t flame me if you think a good idea shouldn’t be shared in such a forum. I’m just giving a conversational tactic a shot here:
What kind of apps are still needed on OSX? People keep noting that Windows has apps and the selection in OSX is meager.
Are there still opportunities for loner programmers to port/redevelop apps for OSX and make a living support freeware and commercial versions of their offerings?
I keep thinking of the Ultraedit guy and hoping he’s making a good living off that app. One guy, one great program.
Quickbooks and Quark are out of scope of this question.
My company spent a day doing a “team building” outdoors activity. My boss comes along wearing an Apple Store T-shirt. I asked him if he had just bought a Mac. He replies no, he was at the mall, they were giving out free T-shirts so he just went to get the freebie.
And for those of you who think Apple should be content with its current user base of creative professionals, think again. Competition is what it’s all about, Windows is a Jack of all trades so it can do anything multimedia related, SGI still owns the high-end 3D graphics field although losing it slowly. My ponit is Apple’s market share will grow smaller and smaller unless they reach out to more people.
As much as people hate car analogy I’m going to use one anyways. The Mac is like a luxury car. Those that can afford it buy it and love it to justify the money they just pissed away. But there’s not that many people with the money and the desire to spend it in such a way. PCs are cheaper and less lavish cars but most homes in America have 2 – 3 parked in the garage/driveway.
This isn’t about “being happy with what you got”. Face it, Apple is just another money grubbing corporate entity, so they need to make money, and targeting a larger audience is the way to do it.
//I remember a few years ago that they had SCADS of money more than Microsoft could even dream of.//
Say what? How drunk are you?
MS has over *$35 BILLION* in cash reserves.
Apple has NOWHERE NEAR that amount, and never has, at any point in their history!!
Check your facts before you post your moronic tripe, and take off your Jobs-colored glasses.
Burns me up…
No
Business is actually the natural domain of the Mac. MSFT licensing and newbie usability makes Windows worse for the generalist business user. However, Apple has to prove itself over time.
Mac’s are never going to appeal to business at the current price points. There is ‘like’ no choice in the Mac lineup. Mac’s bring nothing new to the table.
Linux brings commodity hardware and ‘COMMODITY’ software at a commodity price point to the business table. Thats ‘like’ something new i.e. not currently offered by X86 Microsoft combo.
“Mac’s are never going to appeal to business at the current price points.”
“Linux brings commodity hardware and ‘COMMODITY’ software at a commodity price point to the business table. Thats ‘like’ something new i.e. not currently offered by X86 Microsoft combo”
That’s why Linux and any x86 OS has a bigger chance to succeed.
That’s why Linux and any x86 OS has a bigger chance to succeed.
I love linux, but it’s not going to be ready for a while. For limited applications, sure. For companies that use the web for most of their internal applications, sure. For companies with large marketing or design groups, no.
Linux has about 2 years before GNOME2 is really ready for the enterprise — 2 years before there are enough GUI apps of high enough quality and fast enough speed.
That gives Apple two years to get a handle on their processor problem, and fill out their product offerings down a bit.
It’s a good contest.
the linux business future is brighter for several reasons:
a.) companies like red hat, SuSE and Ximian cater to the business market more than apple
b.) macs are expensive it’s been said and said again…i don’t need to elaborate…which is also why apple has lost their traditional stronghold in education
c.) macs don’t look like office equipment and i know this is very superficial…but they don’t garner a whole hell of a lotta respect from business it managers b/c they don’t look professional
d.) Microsoft might drop Office for the Mac after very dissapointing sales of the latest version…leaving it at best on par with Linux (OpenOffice)
e.) Macs are slower…and time is money in the business world…thus making macs even more costly
f.) Retraining is required for either switch and i would have to say that gnome and kde are a much easier switch than MacOS X for the average user
with that said…i like the new macs…i just would never be able to honestly recommend them in the average business environment…now to a computer newbie…absolutely…to a computer geek…absolutely…to someone in graphics…maybe…depending on what programs they want to use…on many fronts, MacOS X and WinXp are so similar in capabilities it’s scary
personally, i could get my work done about as well on any of these…and for development purposes, my toolchain (Vim GCC Java and Perl) run on all of these platforms about as well for my purposes…thank god for Cygwin
okay that’s the end of my rant
-bytes256
that piece is more essay than article, and if he were in my class, he would have easily earned a C+ or lower 🙂
in fact, his points about hardware are fine, but he (purposely?) fails to even touch on the most glaring problem of all. microsoft’s grotesque software licensing scheme.
This columnist knows nothing about Apple. And, this is not a Mac vs. Windows thing at all really. I know I’m being repetitive, so forgive me for that.
1) The premise of this article – Macs in business (I take that to mean corporate type business) is totaly off the mark. Steve Jobs is too smart for anything in this column. This guy even goes into licensing the Mac OS, sees it as another opportunity for Apple to do this. This is what almost sank Apple! Jobs will never do anything so foolish. I’m an Apple user from 1980 and love Macs. But, Jobs knows Apple can’t compete with Windows in the corporate world. This guy is so dumb. Linux obviously has a much better shot at that.
2) The Switch Campaign: you Windows users should not get upset by Apple’s advertising – it is just advertising. I use Windows XP Pro and I know it’s not klunky or any of that, that’s just advertising. When you see the Switch TV commercials, notice that the Switch people are shown as being very individualistic. Obviously, even to the point where they are eccentric in some cases. Notice that they are never portrayed as representing a group of people, like stock brokers or doctors or lawyers or any large group. Some of these people may be those things, but are not portrayed as being a representative of any group. It’s all very individual. That’s who the ads are addressed to. And, I might be wrong, but I haven’t seen a Switch ad yet where the person is a suit-wearing, briefcase- toting corporate type. Apple is not even trying to go in that direction.
3) Ever since Steve Jobs came back to Apple, it has become a very secrettive company. So, it’s impossible to say *exactly* what Apple’s going to do. But, he has said many times that his model and ideal of a company is Sony. And you don’t see Sony VIAOS, cameras, camcorders, DVD systems in the corporate world. There is a caveat here – the presence of Unix and the XServe (which is a pretty decent intro server). Jobs is certainly going to do something with that. I don’t know, but I think what he may want to do with it is more in the edcational and scientific area, as he tried to do with NeXT.
In conclusion, Jobs brought Apple back from the brink. At first he had to do it with flash and coolness…adding tons of new features to Mac OS 8-9 and then by coming out with the iMac. Of course, the coolness factor is always important to him, but Apple has had to climb out of a deep hole and he has slowly brought it back to a point where he can begin to try and broaden the scope of the company. The Switch ads are not actually anti-Windows – that is not their purpose. Apple’s big ad campaigns like Swith and Think Different are brand advertsing, trying to get the Apple brand out and up into the public’s consciousness. And, if it means gaining a percentage point or two of market share, that would be fabulous for Apple. But, going up against Windows via licensing the OS and trying to go corporate? Never, never, never. Steve Jobs is smart, not dumb like that columnist. This is not Mac vs. Windows.
i don’t think apple makes colored mac’s anymore, just white and silver ones. mac does what it does best, linux does, and windows stinks. xp still reminds me of win95, but cartoonish looking. not the nice aqua look of os x. no graphic courses in my college,,,,non of them are taught on peecee’s……..im so glad,,windose stinks
From time to time at this site a report is listed on user traffic on the net….as I remember mac continues to decline as a % of users.
The local school to me dumped their macs for the new school year….got Dells……pricing….3 to 1……dump your apple shares NOW.
“If you ask me, OS X could stand a better chance of challenging Windows on the desktop than Linux does, or ever did.”
How can mac challenge anything if it can’t run on the most common desktop computers?!? It can’t run on my Dell, the HPs at work, or any of the new Gateways at school.
My Dell can run any version of Windows, any Linux disto, BeOS, and many, many others. One thing it can’t do is run OS X – mac loses.
-Bob
Mac is not trying to challenge Windows – the columnist knows zero about Apple.
I think the header says it all.
Mac’s under Steve Jobs will never amount to anything because he treats Apple as a hardware company not a software company. As a result most of Apples great coding is restricted to a single platform.
Next.
Some people have say than Mac OS X is more appreciated by power users than by home users. there is one from Tim O’Really:
http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2002/08/21/switch.html
I Agree. So why apple have design this (nerds oriented) switch campaign?
In my opinion an OS need a low grade user base who would be helped by power user (programmers and system administrators). There is the business. This deal move money like happen in the Windows world: Nerds helped to write a letter in Word by other people. Nerds helped to manage their business database by programmers.
A Linux like OS would never succeed, except in the geeks’s world. An geeks are demanding people and expend low money, they prefer to download an configure free high quality software.
What is your opinions about this?
Well.. yes… I’ve just done a bit of searching and most of the apps I use when in the office ( SAP R/3 accounting software, MS Excel, MS Word ) are available for the Mac
The obvious missing one is MS Outlook – of which I am a heavy user. I understand that it was available for the classic Mac OS but is not made for OSX. Can anyone tell me if a PIM/Email app of 100% equivalent features ( scheduling, reminders, mail management, server-side features, roving profiles, collaborative tools ) exists for OSX?
We use MS Exchange on an NT4 server, this serves about 200 client PCs in 3 countries. ( Wide Area LAN )
And no, I’m not an IT manager, I’m just curious.
I will be purchasing a G4 (or whatever is new at about the same price) with the 23″ HD monitor in approximately three months. I must say, that while being based on UNIX, and the obvious glory that is Aqua, the monitor was the biggest draw for me :/
If only it wasn’t $3500 USD :[
[/half awake ramble]
Apple knows who their die-hard loyal customers are: elitist snobs with the ability to suspend reality enough to believe that their choice of computer somehow makes them intellectually superior. In pricing their computers in the stratosphere and marketing them as basically effette upper-class status symbols, Apple has effectively alienated most of the “Joe User” market.
They’ve also made what is known in marketing as “The Pepsi Mistake” – in other words, constantly mentioning and comparing yourself to your competitor(s) in your ad campaigns. Not only does it come off as desperate (when was the last time Intel described the P4 as having “PPC-crushing performance”?)
But if getting fleeced by one multi-national corporation makes you feel smugly superior to users of another MNC’s products is what matters to you, then have fun. One day the computer-using world will see the light and all those wintel-using philistines will be boiled in oil etc etc etc….
Robert Hanlin: Business is actually the natural domain of the Mac. MSFT licensing and newbie usability makes Windows worse for the generalist business user. However, Apple has to prove itself over time.
Tell me, how is Apple’s pricing any better than Microsoft? (Plus, could you give me an URL about Apple’s Mac OS X site licensing?).
Outlook may not be included in the Mac Office suite, but Entourage is, which is basically a full equivalent, doing mail, newsgroups, calendars, and contacts. Although I personally find myself using the stock Mail.app, Halime (newsreader), and the built in address book. I don’t use any calendar apps, but iCal was just released and you might wanna give that a try to see if maybe those all suite your needs so you need not lay down the money on Office X.
Thanks .. I’d been wondering what Entourage was.. I realised it was an email/PIM – but can it connect to an Exchange Server?
Did what I should have done at first and checked MS website
Entourage and Mail.App all support email through Exchange but full functionality is only obtained through using Outlook, which will run in OSX classic environment.
Essentially this means my office ( An accounting department ) could become an all-OSX shop, if it wished to.. but we would be limited to using those versions of PPC OSX which support the Classsic application environment.
Future versions of OSX will lose the ability to run Classic apps..at this point we’d be in trouble.
I think this answers the questions posed by Anonymous with regard to which productivity apps are most needed by OSX
I think it a little suspicious that the suite of programs Apple needed to become credible with their new OS, The Microsoft Office vX suite, lacks the one app that in business is most critical – Outlook.
’nuff said
uhhh pepsi has more market share then coke…
nice analogy.
Its a clunky and sometimes counter-intuitive bit of kit, for sure.. but it works, and when you know how to use it and have a good virus-safety program, it does what it does very well indeed.
My job would be much harder without it. I don’t like the dominance of Microsoft Office any more than the next techy geek, but unfortunately, it works. ( I’ve used just about any office suite you can name except for Gobe Productive ) and for me, few come close to MS Office 2000 ( Havent tried OXP yet )
Apple is just planning to take out the ability to boot into OS 9 from Macs starting next year, this doesn’t get rid of classic at all.
I am aware of that – a while ago on a mac news site I saw a projected timeline for OSX which suggested that classic was a stopgap measure, only to be included for the next year or 2, after which Mac OSX would be a Carbon/Cocoa shop only.
Apple does have past form for reducing compatibility in the interests of development.
I admit that possibility that I am wrong though – lol
are you kidding, coke is the number one in the world for the market share. That’s the reason why it is able to charge more than Pepsi, at least in USA this is the case (charging more). I am 100% sure about the market share.
The anology is somewhat wrong in the sense that Pepsi can and may compete with Coke, but Apple is not a serious competitor to the Microsoft at all. Also Pepsi uses the price to attract more consumers, whereas for Apple it is something that makes consumers less likely to buy from Apple.
Finally Pepsi uses Britney Spears in their commercials, whereas Apple uses normal consumers who are not as attractive as Britney Spears
).
pepsi is #1…
actually evan, coke has greater marketshare in the us and the world…and it has for a long time…probably will for a long time…i believe pepsi spends more on tv advertising in a year…but that’s because they have less market share
if you find a credible soure that says otherwise i’d LOVE to see it
> Tell me, how is Apple’s pricing any better than Microsoft?
> (Plus, could you give me an URL about Apple’s Mac OS X site
> licensing?).
I’ll put the burden of proof on you. Tell me about one incident where companies were shaken down by a BSA-like entity to make sure they had their papers for MacOS X upgrades.
You see, Apple’s business model is different, and Apple would be glad if all you did was pirate OS X but bought their hardware. Whereas the BSA often demands that you buy Windows licenses even for Apple machines.
If you’re asking about /pricing/, notice I didn’t mention it at all in my post. That’s the reason I think the Mac is a bit immature. I think it’s worth the price, but that’s clearly debatable.
Sergio – Britney Spears is not that attractive.
De gustibus coloribusque non disputandum.
If you are homo she isn’t but most straight guys find her attractive.
im straight, and find her far too annoying to consider her attractive. have you ever heard her try to sing something that takes actual skill and vocal abilities? i have, and its not pretty. actually its rather horrid.
so ill take the “straight guys who cant stand her” category
Wow! A Coke vs. Pepsi flame war would be such a refreshing change. I’m so sick of the Mac vs. PC one. 🙂
~Seedy~: Future versions of OSX will lose the ability to run Classic apps..at this point we’d be in trouble.
Future Macs would loose the ability to boot into Mac OS 9. Perhaps later on, future Macs won’t come with it, but you can install it by yourself and use the Classic enviroment.
Besides, I heard the next (and probably the last) version of Office for Mac would include Mac OS X native Outlook.
Evan: uhhh pepsi has more market share then coke…
I don’t know about the US, but worldwide, Coke is more sold and known. Heck, go to an Indian or African village and ask “What is Coke?”, they would answer correctly 🙂
Robert Hanlin: I’ll put the burden of proof on you. Tell me about one incident where companies were shaken down by a BSA-like entity to make sure they had their papers for MacOS X upgrades.
Business-class machines that are fast enough to use database, Office, etc. is cheaper than the cheapest Mac. So the pricing is better if they stick with the PC.
Besides, just because the lack of copyright protection, BSA can sue you, and can confiscate your Mac if you use pirated Mac OS X, end of story. Besides, while it seems Microsoft want to charge for Windows on all your machines, or The Register claims it does, the BSA doesn’t care. The BSA cares whether the software loaded on your machines is legitimate.
BSA doesn’t care about pricing, that’s Microsoft’s problem.
So if I was running a business, I would choose x86+Windows over Mac. (But then, I would probably choose x86+Linux…)
bz1: Sergio – Britney Spears is not that attractive.
Notice he was comparing with the people that put on Apple’s ads.
Ophidian: im straight, and find her far too annoying to consider her attractive. have you ever heard her try to sing something that takes actual skill and vocal abilities?
Again, we are talking on how *attractive* she *looks* not how good she *sings*. Besides, I’m in the same category as your 🙂
Myself i like coke and ginger ale. matter of fact i had a coke fries and two cheeseburgers at mc donalds eariler,,they were great. im not really attracted to britney spears, i mean shes an attractive blonde,,,,but ive seen better.
rajan, what happened on your vacation???
1) Macs cost no more than a label brand PC such as HP, Compaq or NEC in Australia. Stop spreading the bullrot that “Mac is more expensive”. Sure, in 1997, when a Beige Power Mac would set you back $NZ7,000, yes, they were expensive, however, I don’t think an eMAC at $AUS2,500 is overpriced, and would suite 99.99999999999999999999999999% of office users.
2) People who don’t make the grade and can’t use Linux, fire them. Either they step up, or fire them. Simple as that. I am sick and tired of the hand holding, excuse making limp wristed management. There are millions of people unemployed. I think if you emphasised the fact that there are 30 people wanting their job, and that firing is no big hassle, I’d say most employees will pick themselves up.
Jay: rajan, what happened on your vacation???
Terrible hotel.
Matthew Gardiner: 1) Macs cost no more than a label brand PC such as HP, Compaq or NEC in Australia. Stop spreading the bullrot that “Mac is more expensive”.
I’m talking business class machines.
For example, a Dell Optiplex GX50 is suitable for most basic tasks like accounting, database, Office. Cost AUD 1,598.30. Cheaper than an eMac, AUD 2,296. Plus, the Optiplex isn’t the cheapest business class PC from Dell.
eMac may have better stuff like a better graphics card, but it doesn’t have things that Dell is better for: its long warranty and business-class support.
Matthew Gardiner: 2) People who don’t make the grade and can’t use Linux, fire them. Either they step up, or fire them. Simple as that.
Most people would take a less drastic proposition of sending them for reeducation classes. Plus, a Linux machine all properly configured wouldn’t need a huge learning curve.
Most people would take a less drastic proposition of sending them for reeducation classes. Plus, a Linux machine all properly configured wouldn’t need a huge learning curve.
—
</Evil HR>
But where is the fun in that? <evil laugh>
<Evil HR>
I’m a user of both Windows XP and Mac OS X 10.2, but until recently I was a “handicapped” user of OS X because I was using it on an old G3. Now I got myself one of the new dual 867 G4s and I have to say I’m histerically happy with it. Buying a Mac had lots of drawbacks before, and the speed difference with PCs was one of them, plus the price, not all software available for OS X, etc. Since this release, even the least expensive Powermac delivers a great value at its price. I don’t care about the “867” number. What I know is that in OS X this machine is fast as a speeding bullet, and the dual processors have much to do about it. On any machine I had operated previously, Mac or PC, whenever I rendered video I couldn’t do anything else, and if I did, it was a very slow speed. With this machine I rendered a video on Final Cut Pro with filters while listening to Mp3s, copied files from one drive to another, chatting with people on IM, all that at the same time. I switched between tasks without effort and each of them were absolutely responsive, like if it was the only one loaded. Quartz Extreme does its part too, graphics response is great, although opaque window resizing is not perfect yet, but much much better.
I think these Macs definitely have a chance at the business. If I had a company and had to purchase computers, I would go for these new models in a snap. These machines really take the concept of multitasking beyond the usual. Any employee that does heavy work can benefit from the power of this models.
Sebastian
Just asking….. did you compare the speeding bullet with a PC released in a similar time frame and sold at the same price? Or did you compare it with come two year old cheap PC you got in a “Special Offer” from Dell?
Try comparing it with a dual Xeon 2.0GHz or a dual Athlon MP 1800+. (I’m being fair here by not asking you to compare with Xeon 2.4GHz and Athlon MP 2100+)
Besides, it seems you are using these machines for stuff that aren’t “business”/”corporate”/”office” stuff, which is listening to MP3s and rendering videos. And if you notice most of the PCs sold today is below the $900 line. Thank goodness you aren’t starting a business, otherwise i should be a video house or you need a lot of capital.
This is a little off topic, but no article yet to post to on this. Apple is noe bundling Adobe Indesign with Power Macs. Suddenly, if you do page layout, Power Macs, in essence, have become several hundred dollars cheaper:
http://www.apple.com/promo/designfreely/
Like almost $700.00 cheaper.
“Try comparing it with a dual Xeon 2.0GHz or a dual Athlon MP 1800+. (I’m being fair here by not asking you to compare with Xeon 2.4GHz and Athlon MP 2100+)”
I went to Dell’s site and configured the least expensive dual Xeon workstation, dual 1.8 Ghz Xeon CPUs, and the rest I configured as similar as possible to match the entry level G4. Probably the Dell is faster, difference is, the entry level PowerMac G4 is about 1,800 bucks and the Dell 3,100. Besides, I couldn’t use Mac OS X in a Dell, so I wouldn’t buy it even if it was at the same price. This may seem absurd to you, but after years and years of using Windows I grew really tired of its interface, and Luna doesn’t help. I kept changing skins all the time and got bored of them within minutes. I love Mac OS X interface, even if it has a few usage shortcomings compared to Windows, but I feel really comfortable with it.
“Besides, it seems you are using these machines for stuff that aren’t “business”/”corporate”/”office” stuff, which is listening to MP3s and rendering videos.”
Well, I do CPU intensive tasks, and the Mac do them fast, which means that the typical tasks business employees do should fly on these machines. I mean, word processing, spreadsheet, Powerpoint, internet, e-mail, all those things are really fast on a new Mac.
Sebastian
Why in the hell did you reply to me in the wrong thread?
System compiler
No I ‘m not a unix user so I don’t use one. Guess what 90% of people aren’t unix users so don’t use one. Still think we need it?
Development tools
Its nice mac makes it easy to make your programs look like mac programs, but like I said most people aren’t programmers so they don’t care.
Scripting
You don’t need all those scripts. I’ve seen scritping programs that help you write scripts that even do mouse movements. They don’t ship with the system, but the ones I’ve tried are free, small, do more and don’t require you learn anything.
standard audio video formats
I still can’t see this as a plus, or where its that different from windows. The system uses wav instead of au, avi instead of mov.
OpenGL
First off learn to cut and paste. Secondly thats interesting but I’d like you to explain why its all so important?
Servers
XP and os10 are about the same age, but there are more people running xp servers then os10 servers so explain why the lack of os10 servers is because of their youth. Maybe you meant because of the lack of user base (they kind of sound alike).
liscensing
os10 to jaguar is not the same as 2k to xp. Xp has a completely different look and “feel” then 2k. Jaguar is a service pack for os10. Just like the one needed right away because the initial release was buggy as hell.
Unix
Windows can use virtual pcs as well to run unix apps since you think a virtual pc on a mac will run windows apps so well. Plus windows is partially posix compliant, where as macs arent’ at all windows compliant.
xserver/client
Great numbers, but where do they come from? tens of millions is an awful lot, amazing taht I know about 40 people who own pcs and not 1 of them uses those. Yet statistics would say that at least 4 would use them, unless your numbers are thin air numbers.
iapps
your right not part of windows. BUT the topic was things windows users are missing, NOT things windows is missing. You see the destinction? If not I’ll come back and explain.
Let me repeat myself, if you reply to someone it only makes sense to do it in the topic they originally posted in. Because lets face it, if I posted this under the gnome 2.0.2 topic you probably wouldn’t make the connection would you?
First of all, I would like to get a few things out of the way.
1) I use both Mac OS and Windows 2000 in a professional audio environment
2) I’m Straight
3) Britney Spears isn’t attractive at all to me. Her Eyes are way to far appart. She looks like a flounder or something. She’s also just another reason that Orlando should be H- Bombed.
Having said that, I would also like to say that OS X is just about as useless as Linux is for what I do. Support for existing hardware is awful and it is a moving target. Like Linux it is very cool and a bit seductive, but much like Miss Spears, ultimately a let-down. I have been using Mac OS 9.x running Steinberg products with very good results. It does appear that the Mac was a lot more glitch-free with the audio while working. It does crash every now and then and this sucks. I also use a windows 2000 machine running the new version of Steinberg (Cubase SX 1.03) with the ASIO Drivers. I have to admit that I am very pleasantly suprised at what a good job the Dual 750 Intel machine does at running Cubase and other audio apps. It is a big improvement over my previous experience with windows and audio. So now I will be going the windows route as far as upgrading goes. The Mac will do fine using the new system link feature of Cubase so all is not lost. We have reached a point where the brute strength of modern Intel machines along with a few improvements to windows have put Intel in the lead. (Opinion) Apple won’t be able to rest on this issue. They’re going to have to do something. Aqua is extremely cool, but not really mature for my purposes. I really like using Apple for the sudio thing, so I hope they’ll get it all worked out. In general, both OS platforms are pretty bloated. Neither platform is a good lightweight media OS. (as good as they could be). The props should really go to Steinberg for making such corpulent machines work worth a damn for audio in the first place.
First off if you don’t think Brittany Spears is hot I want to see your girlfriends. Or if you don’t have one, and you don’t think spears is hot, your probably closeted, so accept yourself and move on with your life. Secondly whoever thinks macs aren’t more expensive failed math. For the cost of the cheapest g4 you can get a dell, ibm, whatever with a faster processor, more ram, bigger hard drive and a better video card. The laptops are closer, but there still more expensive. Thirdly if you think your new mac screams on cpu intensive apps try running the same apps optimized for a pc and spend the same amount of money. Guess which one would do better. Don’t believe me? Check any head to head comparison done by anyone other then apple itself, the mac loses, badly in many cases. Back to the topic at hand, macs won’t be a player in the business field ever. The only thing that even makes them a contender is office (which is also one of the major things keeping linux from being a major player), and we’ve all heard the rumors aobut office. So if they lose office what would be their selling point? The lowest end system is 60% higher then the lowest end dell, hp, ibm, etc. that will do what we need it to. We’d have to retrain all employees and support staff? We might run into difficulties keeping our current file servers (if they’re ntfs) so we’d have to “upgrade” those too. You all get the point.
Why in the hell did you reply to me in the wrong thread?
Because this board doesn’t support threaded dialogue and so multi day conversations are difficult. This post is going to drop off in a 1/2 day or so and then you’ll need to reply on another thread.
System compiler
No I ‘m not a unix user so I don’t use one. Guess what 90% of people aren’t unix users so don’t use one. Still think we need it?
Is your argument going to boil down to if windows doesn’t have it, it isn’t a feature on a discussion of what features windows users are lacking? That seems like a rather stupid argument against the advantages of a system compiler. Yes I will still say it is a major feature that is extremely useful for developers and users.
Development tools
Its nice mac makes it easy to make your programs look like mac programs, but like I said most people aren’t programmers so they don’t care.
Some people don’t have hands so why is mouse support a feature? Anyway, as I mentioned in my post the importance of this is not just that it is good for devleopers but that it leads to a unified interface across all apps and this is good for users.
Scripting
You don’t need all those scripts. I’ve seen scritping programs that help you write scripts that even do mouse movements. They don’t ship with the system, but the ones I’ve tried are free, small, do more and don’t require you learn anything.
And do the apps internal macro language link with them? No so it doesn’t do any good. Why do you think so many VB and VBA apps are written
standard audio video formats
I still can’t see this as a plus, or where its that different from windows. The system uses wav instead of au, avi instead of mov.
It doesn’t use anything internally which means apps aren’t using low level calls.
OpenGL
First off learn to cut and paste. Secondly thats interesting but I’d like you to explain why its all so important?
Windows doesn’t support OpenGL fully which means that high end 3D stuff can’t be ported to windows so it isn’t ported to windows.
Servers
XP and os10 are about the same age, but there are more people running xp servers then os10 servers so explain why the lack of os10 servers is because of their youth. Maybe you meant because of the lack of user base (they kind of sound alike).
There is no such thing as XP server. The comparison is between the Microsoft / Wintel server family (which certainly includes NT4 server) and OSX server which is about 1 year old.
liscensing
os10 to jaguar is not the same as 2k to xp. Xp has a completely different look and “feel” then 2k. Jaguar is a service pack for os10. Just like the one needed right away because the initial release was buggy as hell.
Look and feel doesn’t define an upgrade. The internal changed that’s what’s important. Hell Microsoft could release a different look and feel daily that’s not hard. Consider the difference between NT4 and 2000. The look and feel is very similar but the internals are much better.
Unix
Windows can use virtual pcs as well to run unix apps since you think a virtual pc on a mac will run windows apps so well. Plus windows is partially posix compliant, where as macs arent’ at all windows compliant.
Windows doesn’t support virtual environments very well (though they are getting better). Part of the problem with the design of the kernel. But that’s just a developer thing 🙂
As for Posix compliance Macs of course have Windows beat hands down.
xserver/client
Great numbers, but where do they come from? tens of millions is an awful lot, amazing taht I know about 40 people who own pcs and not 1 of them uses those. Yet statistics would say that at least 4 would use them, unless your numbers are thin air numbers.
That you don’t have much experience is pretty obvious from the above. Are these 40 people a random sample. Anyway the way you get to that figure is sum sales over the last 10 years of software like:
MicroImages Inc. MI/X 3.0
Pexus Systems X-Deep/32
Netsarang Xmanager
LabF WinaXe
XLink Omni-X
Distinct IntelliTerm
Frontier Technologies SuperX
Starnet X-Win32
NetManage ViewNow X
PowerLan WebTerm X
Microsoft Interix (Hummingbird Exceed))
ASTEC Inc. ASTEC-X
WRQ Inc Reflection X, X Suite [2]
NCD PC-Xware. Xware Suite [2]
Tarantella XVision Eclipse [2]
Attachmate KEA!X [2]
GraphOn Go-Global [2]
Hummingbird Exceed [2]
Intergraph eXalt [2]
Most standard corporate desktops include one of these apps.
iapps
your right not part of windows. BUT the topic was things windows users are missing, NOT things windows is missing. You see the destinction? If not I’ll come back and explain.
Now that’s actually a change in topic. Now you are comparing two purchasers with unlimited money (since included apps aren’t worth anything more than purchased apps) trying to decide on a platform. With unlimited money I’m going with an SGI forgot Windows and Mac.
Let me repeat myself, if you reply to someone it only makes sense to do it in the topic they originally posted in. Because lets face it, if I posted this under the gnome 2.0.2 topic you probably wouldn’t make the connection would you?
Then you better figure out another system because this thread is going to be gone in hours. I’d think the next mac thread but you decide.
Genaldar, why do you keep making the same argument about Macs vs. Windows? We all know that Macs cost more and are slower. The people who buy Macs do so not because they’re stupid, but simply because they like them better. In fact, an ordinary user sort of has to go out of his way to get a Mac, since they aren’t in Best Buy and the other appliance/electronics stores, for the most part. They just like them better, that’s all there is to it.
Yet, I dare not inflict my bad poetry upon it, as I did on a previous thread, at least not yet. That, and there were typos in the original. Bleah.
It’s all ugly and personal and not fun, though some of the earlier posts were interesting.
Anyway, Britney Spears has a very attractive BODY and a pretty FACE. This would qualify her as “hot” in many men’s books. Having only seen her on TV and in magazines I think I would never want a RELATIONSHIP with her, and thus, would likely not date her. Other men who feel the same way based on these glimpses of her personality would thus NOT find her “hot” because she seems like an airhead pop star about as deep as a thimble.
By the way, WHAT THE FLYING F*** DOES SEXUALITY HAVE TO DO WITH MACS AND PC’S IN CORPORATIONS????!!! KEEP THE DARN TROLLING ON TOPIC!!!
Gawsh, do I have to drag some Slashdotters over here to show you guys how to troll?
–JM
I was reading and someone said they did not know of a person running osx 10 for a server I AM 🙂 Was a little tricky for being a newbie. But I got most of it worked out
here are the sites if you are intersted, though not all are done:
http://www.maccomputers.com
http://www.lanpartyworld.com
http://www.cyberracers.net
I was responding to someone. I’m sorry I assumed since someone made my screen name the header for their post I thought I could reply. Shame on me.
I don’t think your reply problem should be blamed on the site, no one else posts replies under the wrong topic.
I once had Windows 98 running as a web server. Big deal 😛
But the question is: is it any better than Linux and other BSDs? Does it handle traffic better than Linux/BSDs? Is it faster than it? Does it scale well? How much is your uptime? The list goes on and on.
There is probably an reason why Linux is the fastest growing OS for the web server market, and FreeBSD is also growing in market share, while Mac OS X haven’t made a significant impact yet.
Well, I do CPU intensive tasks, and the Mac do them fast, which means that the typical tasks business employees do should fly on these machines. I mean, word processing, spreadsheet, Powerpoint, internet, e-mail, all those things are really fast on a new Mac.
Word, Excel, PowerPoint etc. is good enough on a $800 Celeron/ Pentium III PC from Dell/Compaq/HP… And dual processors doesn’t help Office:mac, because IIRC it is not multithreaded.
But in the first place, if all these task are really really fast on a DP PowerMac, what compeling reason is there to choose a DP Xeon or a DP Athlon MP?
Anyway. Here’s a configuration of a machine with Red Hat Linux installed: http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.asp?customer_id=555&o…
Not as you claim, it seems.
Besides, I know no tier one OEMs that provide DP workstations that doesn’t come with an expensive high end GPU (Read: Quaddro4). If you build your own system, or use one of the 2nd tier OEMs, you may have a better chance.
And your qualms about Luna seems to be the looks. Besides, when buying computers for the corporate enviroment, you are focusing on the wrong aspects, mostly with looks. Here’s what that goes into consideration:
– Price. They don’t get the cheapest, but they also don’t get the most expensive. They pick something relatively new, middleend, that could last a few years without getting useless, so they don’t buy the $200 Walmart machines. They also don’t buy machines that won’t ever be *needed* by their staff, namely the PowerMac.
– The warranty and service they provide. AppleCare is inferior to that provided by IBM, Dell, HP, Compaq etc. And more expensive, on the long run. It makes less business sense to choose a Mac in this case.
For the record, Genaldar, I’m more of a Fiona Apple kind of guy. And since you asked about the girlfriend, she’s a Gothic sexpot!
Back on topic…(before JM gives me a demerrit)
I don’t really see Apple making huge progress on the desktop business market (non-creative) with the current business plan that they are using. I think Linux has a slim yet better chance in that arena than OS X at present. I also think that Apple is likely to lose a bit of their media business due to a slightly better windows and Intel / AMD hardware brute. It does seem that Apple is aware of this because they are trying to improve the media frame work so that the OS is not “in the way” as much as windows when it comes to media programming. I suspect they are going to try to solidify their artbag base and let the 400 pound ape romp around our offices for many years to come while they air quirky commercials with Lisa Lobe-looking nurdgirls. Eventually the iCouch or iToilet will come out. In the mean time Steve Balmer will find a way to garnish our wages.
WARNING:
The previous text contains forward looking statements that might portray a screwed up world view.
hehe Fiona Apple, funny
goth huh? so your the one of the 6 guys into that ;p