A lot has been said about Lindows. We will talk about some of these issues here and debunk them. Update: Read more and scroll down for the update of the article!1. Lindows is called “Lindows.”
Actually, Lindows is a misnomer. The company is called Lindows.com, and their product is called LindowsOS. One can only speculate whether or not this is part of the much discussed but somewhat hushed outcome of the Microsoft Windows lawsuit. Either way, Lindows is neither a company nor a product.
2. Under LindowsOS, you have to run as root.
LindowsOS does “run as root” by default. This is intentional, most people don’t care to fool with user accounts, as evidenced by WindowsXP, the latest Microsoft offering, which also runs as their version of root, Administrator, by default. Adding user accounts is not the easiest task in the world under LindowsOS, but it certainly isn’t difficult. To add users, simply visit the command line and type
#add user
press return, and follow the directions. For more information on this, see this article.
3. Lindows.com is in violation of the GPL / Lindows.com does not support open source.
When people realized that Lindows.com does not readily offer the source code to LindowsOS, cries of “GPL Violation!” were heard all over the net. The simple fact is that the GPL is not very specific, but the general and common implemention of it is. Nowhere does the GPL specify that the source code must be distributed over the Internet; this is just something many take for granted since many Linux distributors offer their source in said manner. Lindows.com does make the non-GPL’ed part of their source code available to their “insiders.” This satisfies the GPL requirements.
Under the GPL, in fact, you could charge exhorbitant sums for your source. The only restriction is that it must “be available.”
As for not supporting Open Source development, Lindows.com has contributed and supported a number of projects. According to this Michael’s Minute, Lindows.com has contributed to the Desktop Linux summit, wineCONF 2002, DebConf2, and KDE League, among others projects.
4. You need to buy Click-N-Run to use LindowsOS effectively.
While true that Click-N-Run is the heart of LindowsOS, it is not imperative to have CNR access to make LindowsOS work. Lindows.com left the normal underpinnings of Debian intact, meaning that apt-get works from the command line and synaptic, once installed, works in the GUI. My major gripe with LindowsOS is that it comes bare, devoid of an office suite and some simple utilities like a screenshot grabber that every OS should have. My personal view is that Lindows.com was being slightly devious in purposely not including these programs to encourage Click-N-Run use. Of course, this is assumption and not necessarily their true motivationThat aside, Upon boot, a simple:
#apt-get upgrade
#apt-get synaptic
#apt-get install synaptic
#synaptic
will give you an enormous repository, worlds larger and more current than the CNR warehouse, at your fingertips. Oh, yeah – and FREE.
5. LindowsOS is dumbed down and feature-stripped.
LindowsOS is aimed a transitionalists: those who want to switch but have either been intimidated by Linux or found it too complex for use. For the most part, it does its job. Lindows.com hasn’t removed the Linux-ability from LindowsOS, they’ve just hidden it from view. Underneath it all, there is a robust and well-tested system, Debian Linux (Woody), and it is, as far as I can tell, fully functional. As seen in the question above, you can even use some of the Debian utilities to escape some of the LindowsOS pay-to-play flagships. This is truly a case of what you see ain’t what ya get. Like the staple 80’s toys The Transformers, there’s much “more than meets the eye.”
Conlusion
This is not to say LindowsOS is perfect. In fact, it’s far from it. While I believe it strides beyond other desktop distributions overall, it’s way too expensive. At this point, for my $99, I’d still rather use WindowsXP or 2000. However, as it matures, LindowsOS will have to either come into its own or Lindows.com will have to drop the price.
I truly hope that the “community” we all refer to is less pre-judging and open minded about this. Lindows.com has made an important stand that I believe can and will affect the future of Linux as we know it – they have said “We’re here to make money.” I don’t oppose commercialism, I oppose flagrant bullying. Personally, I want to get off the Microsoft platform, and I’ll do that as soon as there’s a product worth it – whether I can download it for free or not.
Update:
Two issues have come up that I wanted to address. First the “exhorbitant price” for the source code has been doted upon – the truth is that if the price of the software is high and the source is only distributed with the
binaries, the price of the source *is* exhorbitant. Lindows.com is not in violation of the GPL, despite the many message board frequenters who try to convince you otherwise.
Secondly, LindowsOS’ $99 price tag is hefty, and if it can be justified, it is by the inclusion of the entire StarOffice 6 suite, valued at approximately $70 and the commercial version of TuxRacer. The question is, with alternatives like OpenOffice.org available with every other
distribution, are those factors convincing? I understand why LindowsOS is different from other Linux distributions –
it’s smoother and works better than most. I also understand what they’re working against, and when I can run Red Hat 8 for nothing, or even buy itfor $59, it’s hard to justify the money for LindowsOS.
About the Author:
Adam Scheinberg is a network engineer working with the Naval Sea Systems Command. He uses Windows 2000 and Red Hat Linux at home, and Novell Netware 5.1 and Windows 2000 at work. He also apparently misses The Transformers.
Yes you can charge as much as you want to distribute the source code, but once someone else gets it they can distribute it as much as they want for free or charge something themselves (for the GPL).
Many linux distros come with non free software portions (even RedHat does starting with version 8).
I thinka third revision of the GPL is needed. Even MS can GPL their software withotu being hurt, how about distributing the source for $100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000 and they will still be able to use other people’s code. This doesen’t seem fair, they would be cahrging for other people’s code.
According to the GPL, once distributed to me your software, I hava the right to get the source code at the cost of its physical distribution.
The GPL says:
3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it,
under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of
Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:
a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable
source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections
1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three
years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your
cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete
machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be
distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium
customarily used for software interchange; or,
c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer
to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is
allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you
received the program in object code or executable form with such
an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.)
>> Many linux distros come with non free software portions (even RedHat does starting with version 8).
Don’t talk nonsense.
Only the rpm with RH8 specific graphics is property of Red Hat.
All other software in RH8 is open source, even the Bluecurve theme (you can only not use the ‘Bluecurve’ name)
As was previously posted, the author of the Lindows article is wrong about the GPL.
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.txt
For commercial distribution, source code must be made available “for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code…”
Thus you cannot charge “exorbitant sums” for LindowsOS / Lindows source code.
And that word “complete” in the GPL bears some attention. It sounds like Lindows.com is not distributing the complete source code per the GPL.
The author should issue a correction. The Lindows.com company with their LindowsOS product is in violation of the GPL, is not openly distributing their code, and on the whole is offering only a shameless insult to the GPL and open source.
– Red Pill
The final release of LindowsOS also contains a GUI usermanager.
AFAIK, there was someone here the other day who posted a link to an FTP site that had the Lindows 3.0 source code.
The only software that Lindows.com haven’t open as per the GPL is their own utilities, who are allowed to keep closed as they are their own work and not GPL’ed software.
With this list of facts, the author proves something that many Lindows fans have been emphatically denying for the last several months. LindowsOS has nothing more to give than the average Linux distro has to offer and therefore doesn’t warrant the initial $99 price tag let alone the $130 for a physical copy of of the OS or the $299 non promotional CnR subscription fees later on. Something that some readers at a popular pro-Mandrake and SuSe website need to take into consideration.
Take a gander http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html
They can charge (whatever your market will bear) for the binaries of GPL software, but must provide the source upon request for the cost of distribution. You then have the right to modify and/or redistribute that source under the GPL. Any non-GPL programs they aggregate as part of a binary distro are not affected.
#apt-get upgrade
#apt-get synaptic
#synaptic
its apt-get install synaptic
This is the main thing I do not understand. The software cost as much as windows Xp. Granted, one might argue that you get more software compare to a plain Windows XP. But you also do not get the access to many specific softwares, so what is the point of it?
It is not targeted toward geeks and curious might look at less expensive alternative. Companies probably want a more integrated server/desktop solution like Redhat or Suse. So what is the market for Lindows? I don’t see any, at least now and in my opinion they will run out of cash before they find one.
This article has made me even more against lindows[ OS .com ]
I didn’t really care much about it, and hence didn’t read much about it. But what I had read, I didn’t think sounded too good.
The answers you had to the misconceptions I think make LindowsOS less appealing.
Also, I have no respect now for Lindows.com because of their GPL issues. Fine, they may not actually be breaking the license, but they are being damned microsofty about it all. GPL’ed code is distributed in good faith, I assume because developers like to get software for free, so they also like to make free software for others, as some sort of “payment”. This is true of me.
I’d be damned annoyed if Lindows.com was making a lot of money of software that I developed for free.
Wouldn’t you?
Like the staple 80’s toys The Transformers, there’s much “more than meets the eye.”
It’s a little-known fact that Optimus Prime’s brain ran on Mandrake. Starscream ran Lindows, that’s why he was so annoying (and also why he died so easily). Unicron ran Windows (what else would an evil planet-eating giant run?).
No. I’d understand what it means to put my code out under the GPL, and choose an alternate license (or make one of my own) if it allowed something that didn’t sit well with me.
“No. I’d understand what it means to put my code out under the GPL, and choose an alternate license (or make one of my own) if it allowed something that didn’t sit well with me.”
but they can only choose a different license for the non-GPL software they’ve written themselves not based on GPL’d works.
Ive said this before and ill say it again……
What happens after Joe user has been using his new Lindows PC for 12 months and decides to go out and buy a new digital camera,scanner,mp3 player whatever.
No Lindows or Linux drivers listed on the box…….hmmmm
Rings up Lindows support
Oh sorry sir that device isnt supported in the Linux kernel you have.We think you might have to download and compile a new kernel.
Theres a beta driver somewhere on the net for that device sir. One of our techs just mentioned it. Its being developed by some 15 yo kid from Hungary and he hasnt had time to finish it. Youll have to compile it yourself and upgrade your GCC and libfoo3.7 to libfoo3.8 and your glib6.8.8.9 to libglib.foo.9.8.8.9.9
With WinXp he would simply install the supplied drivers and 5 min later would be using his new device
Can anyone else see how this completely stuffs the idea of Lindows has a consumer os?
There are other alternatives out there.
I use and recommend Suse Linux to customers, it costs 80€ and has all the software you could ever need.
I suspect Lindows will end up very bankrupt and DEAD.
This reads a lot like an ad or press release that could have been written by Lindows as well, only that it’s more condescending than something Lindows would have written. The claims about running as root are fairly nonsensical:
“Most people don’t care to fool with user accounts, as evidenced by WindowsXP, the latest Microsoft offering, which also runs as their version of root, Administrator, by default.”
Let’s repeat everybody else’s mistakes, shall we? The previous consumer version of Windows, Windows ME, had no security architecture to speak of at all. It was based on DOS, 1980s technology. It had no real file permissions, no real user accounts, nothing. Had Linux emulated Windows then, we’d have our own little variants of Melissa, ILOVEYOU, Klez et al.
Convenience is not about encouraging users to do the wrong thing. Running as root is dangerous and reckless towards others who will suffer the consequences when thousands of Lindows machines are controlled by skript kiddies to launch Denial of Service attacks. Linux as a whole will suffer when that happens, because the general perception will be that Linux is just as insecure as Windows.
Adding user accounts is not the easiest task in the world under LindowsOS, but it certainly isn’t difficult.
That’s not the point. The sane behavior must be the default, or Lindows doesn’t even deserve to call itself an OS. This “running as root” madness is the most idiotic idea they could possibly come up with. It endangers the user and others. Asking for an administrator password (the idiot who called root root should get some usability price) is not exactly the hardest thing in the world for a user to understand, and it offers tremendous benefits.
I wonder whether there are any good solutions to reliably run PhotoShop under (or in parallel to) Linux?
Ideally they’d cost less than $300.
LindowsOS does “run as root” by default. This is intentional, most people don’t care to fool with user accounts, as evidenced by WindowsXP, the latest Microsoft offering, which also runs as their version of root, Administrator, by default. Adding user accounts is not the easiest task in the world under LindowsOS, but it certainly isn’t difficult. To add users, simply visit the command line and type
#add user
And I presume adding a app is as easy at typing apt get <app name>? There isn’t a graphical ultility. Of course, I haven’t tried 3.0 yet, but I’m sure it isn’t there. Besides, Windows XP Home and Professional (not sure about Media Center and Tablet PC) does ask you when you are booting a computer whether concerning this. So unless you skip though thw wizard, you would probably come face to face with this option.
Besides, if there anything NOT to follow from Windows XP, it is security. Even Mac OS X does better in this regard. The “Administrator” isn’t the full root, to get that, open up terminal (use bash, i’m not sure about the default) and type “sudo” and your admin password. Easy enough, aye?
While true that Click-N-Run is the heart of LindowsOS, it is not imperative to have CNR access to make LindowsOS work. Lindows.com left the normal underpinnings of Debian intact, meaning that apt-get works from the command line and synaptic, once installed, works in the GUI.
How many potential Lindows users would be able to install and use apt and synatic? Think, my friend, think. A geek can probably get it all set up, but a consumer probably wouldn’t. A geek BTW probably wouldn’t be using Lindows.
LindowsOS is aimed a transitionalists: those who want to switch but have either been intimidated by Linux or found it too complex for use.
But still too striped down. Xandros and Lycoris, although they do the formidable (copying Windows’ UI) can easily become my recommendation instead of Lindows mainly because it doesn’t strip it down too much. It has far more applications built in, applications Lindows.com expects you to get via CNR.
It’s too early to talk about Lindows.com’s marketing, but what I can say is that Lindows.com has little competitive advantage, if any. CNR for example can be easily replecated by any company, and if one of the big companies (like RH, SuSE, Mandrake) actually do that, they would probably have a bigger software library than CNR. It’s ease of use is somewhat the same as Xandros, and while I didn’t go through the installation, from what I have seen and read, it isn’t that unique (i.e. wouldn’t be hard for competitors to make something better).
Stuff like these. Plus, everyday stupid decissions, like risking the wrath of Microsoft. Microsoft have way more money than Lindows, and they could easily survive any lawsuit. Lindows.com on the other hand can’t. There’s nothing wrong renaming to another name, because as Lindows claims, it wasn’t picked to confuse consumers with Windows.
Then another stupid decission in pissing the Linux community off. Take a survey, most Linux users think Lindows.com as scumbag. Lindows.com has far worse PR than any other Linux company, Caldera/SCO included. And with the mainstream press, it isn’t too rosy there either. MSNBC is the only news source that gave a somewhat positive review of Lindows.com (more like a postive review on Microtel’s price).
One thing Lindows.com failed in terms of PR is in failing to understand than the common consumer aren’t anti-MS. They may support the antitrust suite against Microsoft, but they do not *hate* Microsoft. Maybe Lindows.com thought bashing Microsoft could get the Linux community support…. well, it didn’t.
Red Hat Professional (or even Personal) may come with third party optional closed source apps, but Red Hat 8.0 itself has no non-Free source code. There is a allegation that Bluecurve is closed source, wonder where Freecurve, Bluecurve-okayish and Lighthouse Blue. Red Hat did apply for three patents, and do enforce their trademark on “Red Hat” and “Bluecurve”, but they are still a open source company.
Section 3 a) allows the source code to be bundled with the sold product ONLY. A distributor has a choice of also following b) or/and c) as well. Trust me, if Lindows violated the license, FSF would be on to them faster than you can say “communist”.
“… decides to go out and buy a new digital camera,scanner,mp3 player whatever.”
“We think you might have to download and compile a new kernel. ”
“With WinXp he would simply install the supplied drivers and 5 min later would be using his new device”
Firstly, if there is an all-new digital device there, Windows XP is as helpless with it as any other OS. XP is even helpless with old devices and you really have to browse through vendor pages to get your XP drive updates. That is XP today. Haven’t you ever installed XP yourself? With one single desktop with peripherals, I had to myself go to three different sites to download drivers for XP since XP CDs did not have them.
All major linux distributions today come with online updates. You can update any part of your linux distribution online, even the kernel itself. You even get notified about that automatically. Just click a couple of times and there you have the latest and you can continue your work.
Also, hardware vendors that do NOT deliver linux drivers by default are few today.
There’s a high chance of someone cheap enough to buy a $200 PC, he would probably buy stuff so common (and cheap) that drivers probably wouldn’t be the problem. A lot of digital cameras are supported in gphoto, and newer ones might work, but their new nifty features would not.
besides, there are 15 year olds in Hungary?
Ok, I’ve tried all the new distributions, I can get my hands on, and without a doubt, Lindows comes closer than any of the others,(Xandros is a close second), to replacing a MS product.
Why? Because it almost installes itself, finds the network connection,runs fast and even my father,(93 years old) can use it.
I wonder how many of you guys have tried Lindowos, it’s far from perfect and has a lot of growing to do, but it’s far more a “Joe Blow user” system than any other distribution I’ve tried. And no, I’m not a newbee, I’ve been fooling with these things since before CPM.
“I use and recommend Suse Linux to customers, it costs 80€ and has all the software you could ever need.”
I use and recommend Debian. It costs _nothing_ and has all the software you’ll ever need. It does require that users be able to read, but you don’t have to do anything difficult to install it. Once the Debian install gets a little more streamlined, it will be hard to make an argument to go anywhere else. It is tough to beat $0 cost and complete freedom (no proprietary non-GPL installers, utilities, etc.)
Interesting reply to this article just posted at Tux Reports
http://www.tuxreports.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=v…
Seems that they’ve been rather quiet about LindowsOS but have a copy. Caught me by surprise. Didn’t figure them for it.
For example, go to lindows.com and search the warehouse for gcc. Now click on the “Specifications” button. There are links to the source right on that page that work in any browser.
I am posting from Lindows 3.0 now and its really not a bad product, in fact I would say it is a very good product. 3.0 does have a gui for adding users and all my hardware set up nicely. You linux experts may not like it but I really think this product might have a chance.
The Top 5 Misconceptions About LindowsOS. And the Top 2000 Misconceptions About GNOME.
Sounds like many doesn’t understand GPL completly.
Now, you have to make sourcecode available for GPL’ed projects, and can charge for the physical act of transfering it to the “customer”. One does not have to make it available on the net.
In a complete distribution, there are many many packages. Many of which is not GPL. One cannot say that a complete distro is GPL. Many of the other licenses like the BSD license permits you to more or less do anything. Don’t making
a complete distro opensource is ofcourse legal, one must look at the individual packages and their license..
And remember that many big porjects are using LGPL. Take
e.g. KDE, its libraries are LGPG, QT is GPL/Other. So one buys a Qt license, and can develop all the closed source applications one wants.
“LindowsOS does “run as root” by default. This is intentional, most people don’t care to fool with user accounts, as evidenced by WindowsXP, the latest Microsoft offering, which also runs as their version of root, Administrator, by default.”
There is probably another reason why WinXP runs as administrator by default. Older Windows programs, especially those written for Win 95/98/ME, write to files under the “Programs Files” directory tree instead of using “Documents and Settings/Fill-in-the-blank-with-name-of-user” tree. These programs break when run with normal user-level privileges, unless said user is Windows-savvy enough to install them under a directory to which an ordinary user can write. Making Administrator privileges the default means that Joe Schmoe non-Windows-savvy user won’t be frustrated when trying to run these older apps.
Unix has been a multi-user system for decades, so there aren’t a bunch of legacy apps that treat the system as if it were single-user. That means that the only real reson to have root be the default account is so that users don’t have to type in a password to install apps or configure the system. That is just flat out a dumb reason, especially considering that there are GUIs that allow one to type in the root password without having to bring up a command line. At the very worst, users can write down the password and store it somewhere they can find it, like their wallets.
Just because Windows tends to run with Admin privileges doesn’t mean that Lindows should emulate that bad practice.
I think Lindows is great, marketing-wise. They make an enormous amount of noise in claiming to be a) Linux; b) easy to install; c) easy to use.
All these are true. (Also for RH8, SuSE 8.1, and Mandrake 9. But these have the memory of their 5.0 versions haunting them: no drivers, no GUI install.) Lindows is therefore a very good way to introduce people to the concept of a userfriendly Linux.
If people buy it (and why not, with the $199 Walmart PC), some of them will be happy with their click-n-run; others will search the web to find out what’s the difference between Lindows and Red Hat. From that point it must be easy to grasp that that difference isn’t very large, apart from the GNOME vs KDE issue. Those people should, right then and there, be confronted with the Lindows Users’ Mantra:
apt-get update
apt-get install synaptic
because with that info anyone who’s smart enough to download his/her own MP3 encoder software should be able to transcend the pay-to-play Lindows environment, and enter the open source world.
What’s wrong with that?
Now, if they’ll just be so kind as to fix that login-as-root error…
For a simple desktop OS, Lindows is really handy, as it performs a complete installation in about six minutes. After answering a total of three prompts, you’ll boot into a functional desktop with all the expected packages installed. Add a few lines to sources.list, run adduser (without the space!) and you’ve got an up-to-date Debian running without having to go through the laborious Debian installation.
However, Lindows’ EULA makes it very unattractive. So, a great alternative is Knoppix. With Knoppix and the hdinstall script, you can have a running Debian desktop (running off your HD) in about 15-20 minutes.
are we talkin old school transformers or the really shitty ones. without optimus prime?
Currently Lindows.com is making the BEST EFFORT of all distributions to make Linux better known in the mainstream.
And at the same time, it is the MOST CRITICIZED of them all from within the Linux community that has for years tried to dethrone Windows from the mainstream desktop.
If Lindows.com followed the advice from the Linux community, I think they could just as well kiss goodbye to their mainstream success. The mainstream and the Linux community are two separate worlds and they meet only through Linux distributions. 🙂
The so-called Lindows article is nothing more than Michael Robertson hype, although he did not write it. Let’s dismantle it step by step, shall we?
<<LindowsOS does “run as root” by default. This is intentional, most people don’t care to fool with user accounts, as evidenced by WindowsXP, the latest Microsoft offering, which also runs as their version of root, Administrator, by default. Adding user accounts is not the easiest task in the world under LindowsOS, but it certainly isn’t difficult. To add users, simply visit the command line and type
#add user>>
Oh, yes, XP. By all means, let’s start keeping up with Microsoft which is, God knows, innovating our brains out.
<<While true that Click-N-Run is the heart of LindowsOS, it is not imperative to have CNR access to make LindowsOS work. Lindows.com left the normal underpinnings of Debian intact, meaning that apt-get works from the command line and synaptic, once installed, works in the GUI.>>
Click N Run is $99 now but goes to $299 next year (something about $99 being a ‘promotional’ price) and CNR is the heart of Lindows because Lindows comes stripped. Yes, it’s buying a car and GM selling the engine, seats and fuel tank separately.
Frankly, I want the article retracted or a correction issued. If I want PR being passed off as news I’ll subscribe to Lindows e-newsletter. I expect better from OSNews, Eugenia.
How can it be a brand but not a product when it clearly exists? I guess that is “free as in beer”-thinker… (Sorry, couldn’t resist!)
First off, let me say I used Windows since 95′. I tried Mandrake, didn’t work for me. I tried Redhat didn’t work for me. Then I heard about LindowsOS on TechTV. I really didn’t give a sh*t about it then. But as the security issue grows in Windows, and the privacy fades away. I needed to find a new hope to look into. I then tried LindowsOS “30 day money back”. 5 months later, I’m having the time of my life. I thought I could never leave Windows cause of hardware and software. But LindowsOS made it in under 7 mins, simple. I been MS free for 5 months, and as all the knowledge of Windows I had, fades, I get happier and happier. In fact the Windows CD’s I once had, where sented back to MS with the LindowsOS Logo.
Currently Lindows.com is making the BEST EFFORT of all distributions to make Linux better known in the mainstream.
And at the same time, it is the MOST CRITICIZED of them all from within the Linux community that has for years tried to dethrone Windows from the mainstream desktop.
There’s no paradox about it. The Lindows people aren’t being criticized on the magnitude of the effort but the quality of the effort. They’ve been slow to provide the source that they were legally obligated to provide, and even today, they do botch jobs like running as root by default.
Digital camera dude, shut up. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Linux supports most audio and video cards today. Most of them without any support from their manufacturer. It also supports most ethernet cards, IDE controllers, various bus types, PnP, ACPI, CPUs, etc. Just because it doesn’t support your $5 camera today doesn’t mean it won’t in a year or two once most of the major bug fixes and features of the core OS have been implemented. When it does support your camera it will do so without you ever needing to install software, drivers, or tweak it. But for right now if you really want to make that camera work with linux then go look at the HOWTO. I’m sure there are drivers for just about any device on the market. And with my experience most of them don’t require any modifications to the kernel. Just a simple modprobe command and possibly some 3rd party GPL software to interface with the device. The reason its not integrated into distros yet is because they obviously have better things to do that fix your digital camera.
Under the GPL, you need to provide the source for the cost of distrobution. $99 is not the cost to distrubute the source (Porbably a $20 max), so it does indeed violate the GPL.
Also, they need to provide, for free, any changes to GPLed source they have made. Lindows is a omnplete insult to the OpenSource community.
Aki, most new hardware come with a driver CD. And most probably it has XP drivers. So much for going around the net finding for drivers 🙂
Making a good product and making a lot of noise doesn’t equal into good marketing. Some people don’t understand, marketing isn’t about good product. It may be about publicity, but not entirely about that either. Marketing is a all round effort from the beginning at the product drawing board. To really see if a company is marketing savvy, one must wait a few years to really judge them (most companies mostly come out with full grandeur during the first few years, take Be for example). And by time you are ready to judge them, they probably wouldn’t be around.
I think it’s ironic how much attention the commercial (non-free) Linux companies are getting. I understand (and share some of the desire) how nice better installers and more attractive skins are — but if you look at the list of Linux distributions that are getting the attention these days, I think a lot of that attention is being misguided.
The new Linux distros aren’t distros at all — you can’t readily redistribute and share them. They’re more commercial packages than distros, and this distinction should be considered. Sure Lindows is Debian down deep, but it’s not Debian, it’s not free.
Let’s look at a list of distros that are popular discussion topics these days:
Lindows — not $ free, no download
Lycoris — beta download, not $ free, won’t be free
Xandros — not $ free, no download
SuSE — not $ free, no download
Libranet — not $ free, no download
MOSTLY FREE:
Red Hat — free download, trademark restrictions, active responses to trademark usage by CDR vendors (yes, it’s legal and their right, but not quite “free” eh?)
Mandrake — free downloads, doesn’t badger CDR vendors, commercial update requirements (I think)
TOTALLY FREE:
Debian
FreeBSD
NetBSD
Slackware
Knoppix
—
I’m not going to argue the moral merits of running a commercial Linux company and using loopholes in the various licences to circumvent the “spirit” of them, but I’ll bring up this thought:
Commercial companies ultimately fall into a trap where the interests of their consumers don’t dictate their strategy. We just lived through a period of financial speculation that brought to mind serious disadvantages of organizational control of intellectual property (see Red Hat’s trademarks on things like a UI — it’s not even that good).
I would submit that we’d be better off lavishing attention on the truly free distros and resting a little on the attention applied to the more commercial distros. Most of them will disappear — they aren’t viable. The recent spate of news articles are seriously skewed to the commercial vendors and I personally think it’s not the most productive place for attention.
It would seem to me that these companies could possibly reach financial success more readily by providing the free software, some consulting and commercial update facilities — this wouldn’t rub up against the spirit of the GPL and require all the back-bending that we’re always arguing about here (“GPL lets you charge $1M for source,” “no it’ doesn’t, “yes it does”, “GPL requires source code at cost”, “you’re an idiot”, et al). It that wouldn’t work, then maybe there really isn’t room for more commercial Linuxes anyway. I guess we’ll know in 2-4 years..
[wishing there was a preview button here]
Cost of distribution in the GPL wasn’t clearly spelled out. They made no mention on the sanctions placed on that cost. Whether it is just for the media, or the media plus work that went into it, or the media plus some profit.
Plus, didn’t you know in the early days of EMACS and FSF, Stallman sold media with GNU EMACS at a price that was able to fund himself and the FSF. Strange to note, RMS make profit from GPLed software, and Michael can’t?
I have not visited it myself, but Eugenia posted that Lindows.org does have the source code available for download at an ftp server.
Having read Adam’s articles in the past, the idea that he is doing PR for Robertson is ridiculous.
The bottom Line: Despite the mistakes that Robertson has made and the type of hype Robertson puts out, LindowsOS itself (with the Click N Run Warehouse) is the best yet for Joe User. You can get it pre-installed and, even if you don’t, it’s so easy to install that anybody can do it. Its menus are very organized and easy to understand. To Joe User, paying $99 or even $129 for unlimited access to software is a good deal (and this includes Star Office 6). You must think like Joe User, who this is intended for. To Joe User, to pay that amount and to be able to download (or use the Express CD if you just have dial-up) is a bonanza. And all module dependencies are resolved, the apps go right into the categories they are intended for.
I’m not trying to do PR for Lindows.org either but I try to tell the truth as I see it – and I use Lindows as one of my distros, so this is not second hand. Actually Lycoris is my favorite Joe User distro, but I have to tell the truth – Lindows.org has achieved these things. One can criticize them for all kinds of things, but not for what they have achieved. If you have never used Lindows, you don’t know. If you pretend you’re Joe User and install and use Lindows, you will see what I mean – they are succeeding up to this point.
The $299 for future versions and access to the Warehouse is way too much. They are going to have to change that or they’ll be out of business real fast.
Libranet’s latest version 2.7 is not available for free download, their last one 2.0 is.
So you can try out their improved easier than Debian install and “adminmenu” .
.
Personally, I think Debian based distros are the way to go (though I see good stuff in Suse and Mandrake).
There is an inverse relationship in price and ease of use
in the following 3 Debian Distros from easiest and most
expensive to free and more difficult.
Xandros
Libranet
Debian itself.
More comments in general
Nothing happens in a vacum. Some of the “for the transitioning Windows user” approaches will make their
way into the more affordable mainstream distros as options. Then they will be even sweeter at a better
price. Then where will the expensive newbie Distros be?
I think Libranet overcomes many of the objections to
Debian, ( ie, install and use) even those objections are
way overblown.
Otherwise Xandros looks the best to me, and as I can
see has gotten the best reviews.
Yeah, they have kde 2.2 instead of 3.x. not such a big deal. Guess what?
The days of a new release of Linux software actually doing that much more for you are rapidly ( but not quite
and not yet ) coming to a close. That’s right just like
with yer Windows word processors. The new one does what
that the old one won’t ? …Wow.
What I like about Xandros is that they don’t seem to
be charging for a software warehouse.
I don’t like this concept. Charge a modest amount for
the Distro and give the people a tool to gorge themselves
on all the free Software they can.That is one of Linux’s
biggest selling points and some want to weaken it. Crazy!
Linux development is not dependent on Business. It is facilitated by it. The tech guy at Ford which isn’t in the Software Business can just as easily hack on Linux as the guy at a Software Company.
It’s just that the Linux Distro will always be a business
model “lite”. You won’t make the kind of money MS did. Sorry.
*** Business make money using Linux not selling it. ***
I mention this because there is a pitfall in the propietary enhancement.
***That it will get more effort into making it propietary than making it better. ***
This is no small point. It probably explains why the “leading ” Linux Distro Red Hat, deviated from the development model that made Linux what it is, ie using
the best, did not just abandon rpm and use apt and debs.
And what has happened . rpms are slowly being debianized
with aptfor rppm and synaptic.
And the distros that want to the easiest (lindows, Xandros, ELX, Libranet) are all using Debian.. and kde
for that matter. Why? Because initially they go for the
easiest and best. Then they start putting the effort
into making it theirs. It is an insidous process.
Yes.We must alway have some of this, but like a carburator that must have the right fuel/air mix if it is wrong it will sputter and stall.
Too much propietary and NIH _stalls_ Linux . Moves it
sideways. We have to get it together before Palladium
or Gates will as Cate Blanchette silkenly intoned in
the prolouge to Fellowship of the Ring will “plunge the world into a second age of Darkness”.
Prices… Lindows, Xandros are too high. End of Story.
Have _options_ of shipping without manuals, without yer Xover or yer Tux Racer
or make last years distro available, but lower your prices. They are too high.
Psychologically, more than 50. is bad.
In Tux is the way.
I think we just talk about about the old transformers. Not that shitty beast wars crap!
Remember: The greatest autobot of them all will return! 😉
David Fox be gettin’ some schoolin’ now…
Dave, the secret of Nike is that it actually exists only as a brand anymore rather than the shoe company it once was. Nike does not own or operate any of the factories where any of its merchandise is made. Nike does not do anything other than design, licensing and marketing; everything else is contracted out (outsourced). This is how it exists as a brand but not a product. If Nike still made its own gear then it would qualify as a product. I read about this in one of my umpteen business mags that I get because it is some sort of anomaly under NAFTA or one of those free-trade-promotes-peace treaties our leaders are prone to sign despite the historical evidence against it.
Lindows (according to Lindows) isn’t an operating system, but rather Lindows is actually Lindows.com. What the hell that means I don’t know but that’s straight from Lindows own mouth. A horse is a horse of course, of course…
Penguins to the people!
Aint Skeered wrote: I am posting from Lindows 3.0 now and its really not a bad product, in fact I would say it is a very good product. 3.0 does have a gui for adding users and all my hardware set up nicely. You linux experts may not like it but I really think this product might have a chance.
I find it interesting that people like Aint Skeered, who have actually TRIED LindowsOS, are for the most part pleased with it. I guess I personally have a hard time knocking something I haven’t tried, so I guess all the LindowsOS stink talk is puzzling to me.
I understand that there are some issues that people object to (such as running as root by default) but who cares? Most people new to Linux do that anyway until they realize why it’s not a good idea. Lindows is still Debian underneath, so create a friggin’ user and stop all the belly aching.
And I presume adding a app is as easy at typing apt get <app name>? There isn’t a graphical ultility. Of course, I haven’t tried 3.0 yet, but I’m sure it isn’t there.
If there isn’t a graphical install utility already, it is easy enough to get one.
“There’s no paradox about it. The Lindows people aren’t being criticized on the magnitude of the effort but the quality of the effort. They’ve been slow to provide the source that they were legally obligated to provide, and even today, they do botch jobs like running as root by default. ”
What the heck are you talking about? They aren’t legally obligated to provide source for GPL anything, unless they modified it (in which case they have to provide the diff). In any case, since they have not made a public release until very recently, they were not obligated to disclose their changes.
Besides, do you think Lindows is the only one? Many distributions, such as SuSE, come with a license very similar to that of Lindows. For example, YaST is 100% proprietary, and requires a license. That’s essentially the same as what Lindows does with their software.
Yes i have installed winxp. As for Windows drivers i was talking about the supplied drivers that come on a CD with your new device. If you didnt realise this was what i was talking about then your a moron.
And as for the digital camera,mp3 player-i was using them as an example ONLY.
I personally have never seen any device that has Linux listed on the box.
Im saying that Linux needs to be more modular and more standard and needs to attract hardware vendos to write device drivers so the ORDINARY USER can plug in new hardware and make it work easily.
I recently bought a new P4 machine-i installed my 4 year old copy of win98-installed all the drivers that came with my hardware (camera,scanner,printer,video,sound etc)-and it all worked perfectly. Try installing a 4 year old distribution of Linux on that same machine and see how far you get.
Ill give you another Lindows example-what if Joe user after 12 months decides to buy a brand new video card and replace the existing one in his Lindows machine-and X doesnt support it?
The author is confused about the nature of the security
problem posed by Lindows. He says ‘You can add security
by adding nonroot users’. The problem is that Lindows
*is insecure by default* and *encourages insecure use*.
Even Windows XP encourages creation of individual user
accounts; Lindows should do the same.
Why is LindowsOS insecure by default if not for the run as root issue?
XP does the exact same thing. Your first user is an Admin and you have to make a second user.
..there are two posts on this page that need to be moderated down, pronto — at least for us mozilla users :-). Talk about a LOOOOONG URL.
I just modded down two pretty informative posts that were so long they destroyed the page (for me in Phoenix and Anonymous above in Mozilla). If you’re interested in some interesting information from Lindows.com re: GPL and software, see the modded down comments and their URLs.
A lot of wrong critics from the freeware movement has been expressesed about lindows as long as it exists. But friends – hold on – lindows is ok, even for a freeware pee picker.
Why? Because they are pioneers breaking ground for a new challenge – to get Linux (meaning freeware in general) onto the end users machines. That’s really something new and the current hop virtually all distributions are approaching. (beside debian, which is from admins to admins)
Good to have Lindows, these guys started this hop, and the honor to do so is theirs. Plain and simple.
Linux is all about FREEDOM OF CHOICE. The reason Micro$oft is feeling threated by Linux is because Linux is the Beast that Morphs. Micro$oft has to fight a multi-front battle. Everytime they try to plug a hole in the dam, there’s another. If history has taught us all one thing, it’s that nothing lasts forever. People are growing tired of the restrictions – people want to be free – simple as that.
I think that Lindows.com has a VALID role to play in the whole Linux scheme. Lindows is yet another front.
I quit on M$ when XP came out, sure I love eye-candy, few people don’t, but when I felt the leash tighten beyond my confort level, I found something new – so will other folks. I now run Red Hat 8.0 and I’m very happy with it, but it wasn’t always that way. I started with XMMS and themes, now I do EVERYTHING on Linux, and that’s the point:
PEOPLE NEED A STARTING POINT. Don’t knock it – support it, when people outgrow their distros, they’ll move up to something that’s more their speed.
I don’t see what the fuss is all about, in the end, we’re all looking for a better computing experience..
We’re all on the same boat..
>I just modded down two pretty informative posts that were so >long they destroyed the page
You did well Adam. I too mod them down because they do destroy the page, or even delete them, or edit them. Readers should be more cautious as to what they copy/paste each time. In fact, these long URLs could be made MUCH SMALLER, the last part of the URL that makes it so long is not even needed !!
1. You don’t need to use the console to set up users. Simply go to their Launch menu and select Settings > User Manager.
http://info.lindows.com/askmichael/question9.htm
2. Lindows.com provides every bit of source code to any GPL software they use TO THOSE WHO THEY DISTRIBUTE THE BINARIES TO. That is what the GPL requires, and they comply. Many suggest that if I wrote a program, and sold one copy of it for $1 to my mother, that I am then required to get a server, put up a web site, and distribute that program and source to any and all. That’s ridiculous. I only have to provide the source code ALONG WITH the binaries that I distribute. Lindows.com does that.
http://info.lindows.com/askmichael/question6.htm
3. Considering LindowsOS comes with several COMMERCIAL programs, it’s well worth the $99. Also, I don’t pay to change the oil in my car either. I could do this for free, but I choose to pay for the convenience of having someone else do it for me. Same reason I pay someone to cut my hair. Click-N-Run is a service that people can choose to utilize or not.
http://info.lindows.com/askmichael/question7.htm
Mark F
>3. Considering LindowsOS comes with several COMMERCIAL programs, it’s well worth the $99.
Wrong. LindowsOS does not come with these commercial programs you speak about. ClicknRun comes with them. And since last Monday, CNR costs $299 USD. Therefore, the $99 is just too expensive, which is basically a platform to enable you to use somethign else that costs three hundrend bucks. Ridiculous.
According to http://www.lindows.com/lindows_sales_intro.php
You can either pay $129 for the Membership Version of 3.0, which includes a bonus CD that contains Star Office 6.0, Tux Racer Deluxe, and some of the other larger programs. This also includes 1 year to CNR;
You can pay $119 for the download edition of Lindows 3.0, which is without the manuals and the bonus CD. THis also includes 1 year to CNR; or
You can pay $299 which includes the first choice above (the “Membership Edition”) plus other stuff like inside access to stuff. This also includes 2 years to CNR. Apparently, you also get access to the forums and chatrooms (which concerns me — does this mean if you buy the $129 version you don’t get access to forums? At the very least, I would expect to have access to support and users’ forums).
I also understand (but couldn’t find anywhere on the site) that the CNR will cost $299 a year after your first year. So, if you get option 1 or 2 above, you’ll have to pay another $299 in just one years’ time to continue accessing CNR. That would be $428 ($129 + $299) for 2 years’ worth of CNR. Wow.
Q: If I distribute GPL’d software for a fee, am I required to also make it available to the public without a charge?
A: No. However, if someone pays your fee and gets a copy, the GPL gives them the freedom to release it to the public, with or without a fee. For example, someone could pay your fee, and then put her copy on a web site for the general public.
Let’s see if Lindows is on this site:
http://www.linuxiso.org
Funny, it isn’t. Funny it isn’t anywhere I could find easily. However, downloadable versions of almost every other Linux can be easily found.
Does this mean that not ONE person has decided to leverage the GPL and post LindowsOS?
Or does it mean that LindowsOS is really not GPL?
– Red Pill
Am I the only one that gets annoyed when exorbitant is spelled ‘exhorbitant’?
… you might want to look over at Xandros 1.0
It has all Lindows has – & more. They do include : screencapture, OpenOffice, Mozilla, Games, and – oh yes – Crossover Office/Plugin included and M$ Office CD launches upon insertion of CD … I believe that was LindowsOS initial claim to fame …
They are currently working on their version of CNR, once finished it will be 1 heck of a desktop distro, but in my opinion – it already is….
M.
Red Pill, to become GPL compliant doesn’t mean one must release all of their software under the GPL or other OSS licenses. Lindows.com follows the GPL where it is required. It only makes available software sources under copyleft license.
However, the product itself isn’t free. Besides using custom closed-sourced stuff licensed from Xandros, the EULA itself doesn’t permit free redistribution. LindowsOS is 100% GPL-compliant. However, it isn’t 100% GPLed.
In all my years of using Linux, (been using since 1.x kernel days), I’ve never seen any Linux distro engender such FUD, misconceptions and emotion as LindowsOS. Sheesh.
First of all, I use LindowsOS as my main Linux distro. I am not a newbie or a neophyte. I can compile a kernel with the best of them and know how to use apt-get, urpmi, etc. I’ve battered and beat RH 8 into a useable form, tamed Mandrake and kicked SuSE’s butt. And yet for all this, I prefer LindowsOS. Why? Because it’s easy! Because CNR works as advertised and is the best software management system I’ve used on any Linux distro barring none. Any shortcomings I’ve found in LindowsOS are more the shortcomings of Linux in general (crappy USB support, crappy out-of-the-box fonts, etc) and not of LindowsOS.
As an LindowsOS Insider, I can tell you those guys at LindowsOS work their butts off to provide a service that’s worth the money you pay for it and according to me, you get way more than you pay for. They actually respond to user’s concerns and the LindowsOS staff is very active in the forums, especially the President, Kevin C.
And the beauty of LindowsOS is that there is Debian underneath it all and apt-get and synaptic work just fine. But, I prefer CNR because it works just as well as apt-get (it’s just a modified apt-get anyway) and puts things in the menus where they belong and it truly is a single-click application. It works great!
I’ve tried and used most of the other desktop Linuxes out there including Corel (which I loved) and Lycoris, Mandrake, SuSE, RedHat, etc. But I keep coming back to LindowsOS because of it’s simplicity and the fact that it “just works.” My only real complaint with Lindows is that it’s butt-ugly (I hate the colour and icons schemes) and out of the box, the fonts are as ugly as every other Linux distro out of the box, except RH 8. (I love what RH 8 did with fonts and I think the Bluecurve theme is gorgeous).
Is LindowsOS too expensive. Hardly. Why isn’t everyone crying about the cost of Ximian’s Red Carpet Express or Xandros Network, or Lycoris’ Iris, or Red Hat Network or the Mandrake Club or any of the other pay-for-use software schemes out there? They all cost about the same as CNR, but only CNR seems to have incurred the wrath of the Linux community.
Get over it. LindowsOS has its faults, but so do all the other distros. (Hell, SuSE 8.1’s YOU is broken out of the box and has to be fixed before it can be used. If Microsoft pulled something like this, the Open Source world would be all over them. RH 8 for all it’s beauty is useless for multimedia out of the box.) Yeah, LindowsOS was overhyped at first, but they’ve backed down from the ridiculous claims they made a year ago and have a much more realistic vision now.
I’m not even sure I believe LindowOS will survive for two more years. But I’m glad they’re here now, I’m happy with what they’ve done and sincerely hope they will survive because they’ve truly managed to bring Linux to the masses.
Don
>Wrong. LindowsOS does not come with these commercial >programs you speak about. ClicknRun comes with them. And >since last Monday, CNR costs $299 USD. Therefore, the $99 >is just too expensive, which is basically a platform to >enable you to use somethign else that costs three >hundrend bucks. Ridiculous.
What? Eugenia, sometimes you excel at talking crap. The cost of LindowsOS is $129USD which includes the OS and 1 Year of CNR ($119USD for the download). The $299USD you so happily mis-quoted is the insider program fee not a membership… Try to get you facts straight next time okay?
Well said, Don. I’m also a Lindows Insider and long-time Linux user. I for one am glad the days of Slackware command-line installs are behind me; I much prefer getting real work done to spending all my time making an OS operable. Lindows is going great guns toward making the general computing world take notice of Linux’s potential as a desktop OS as well as a great server OS. Seems to me the gripes come from those who want everyone else to work for them for free (i.e., offer their source for free download, no charge).
Thanks for speaking up. I too have taken to useing Lindows, as my distribution of choice. The fonts stink but I can put up with that.
It’s really good to hear from some people who have used Lindows and not just from people who think they know what it is.
That is why I bought it. Sun Star Office ($70) is necessary, but the fairly recent inclusion of Photogenics ($90) was what had me digging out my credit card.
I am a total newbie to Linux and as a SOHO I don’t have time to learn all the in s and outs. Lindows was -so- easy to install and get up adn running.
The problem was not `You _must_ run as root’ but `The average nong runs as root’. LindowsOS runs as root by default, and 99% of the sort of person who buys LindowsOS ain’t gunna change that, so in effect LindowsOS will always run as root. To misquote the Australian Lotto ads, `One trivial vulnerability, and you’re outta here.’
As to source availability, not only are LindowsOS bending the rules as far back as they can, even the compliance which remains is miserly, `pound of flesh from about the heart, but no blood’ kind of thing.
Two points, Mr SmartyPants Anonymous… (1) in this case `the gripes’ DON’T `come from those who want everyone else to work for them for free’ they come from one of many who WANT to `work for them for free’ and would if they played fairly; and (2) Mandrake have already done more – without any of the funny implications that haunt LindowsOS – to advance the cause of Linux through ease of use and installation than LindowsOS every can, and they, RedHat, Debian, to some degree SuSE and others are quite happy to share each otehr’s utilities etc. Mandrake also seems to be able to bundle commercial software without turning the entire distro into an informational black hole (ditto for many others). I don’t mind LindowsOS being different, since in general the more choices we have the closer we come to freedom, but I do mind them misrepresenting what they’r doing, and I do mind them muddying the waters for everyone else. Months ago, I asked Lindows.com (nicely) about their incomplete and well-concealed sources, CC’ed the letter to LWN, and haven’t heard a peep since. And really, I’m not prepared to accept a snow-job about `too busy to answer’. Lindows.com is so far not playing the game, they’ve been as one-sided about a lot of stuff as Microsoft – donations to conferences notwithstanding – and really need to open out and be sporting about what they’re doing.
The Lindows.com licensing “prohibits the distribution” of the LindowsOS without paying Lindows.com $500 per month or $6,000 per year.
In otherwords, The Lindows.com Licensing prohibits me from purchasing LindowOS fot $99, puting it on a computer and then selling or giving that computer away. I first must pay Lindows.com the “HIGHWAY ROBBERY” DISTRIBUTION FEE!!!!!.
I contacted Lindows and it is true. No Distribution without paying the $6,000 fee.
VIOLATION YES.
Am I the only one that see’s this?
If this is allowed to stand, it will be the end to the GPL and Bill Gates will just simply go ahead and buy Lindow.com and that will be that…..?????
“Bill’s Way or No Way”
Perhaps the scariest revelation for a Linux user came from a supposedly well informed friend. Well, he uses Windows but seems open to new ideas.
However when he informed me that Microsoft were in fact releasing a linux distro called Lindows I was truly taken aback.
I think that therein lies part of the problem. If people don’t even know where Linux comes from they must have problems getting it. Lets face it, the distro system is problematic for a newbie. Having made the decision to cross over they discover that Linux does not in fact exist. Add to this the confusion over OSX being UNIX and you make for a situation where they just sit back and feel grateful they have a single stable company makeing their product. How would you feel to discover that in a packet of cornflakes that there where ten different types made by ten different companies all with very similar, at least to an outsiders eye, packaging. (Sorry for the english there). But would they really know the difference between Debian, Red Hat and SuSE. What about packaging confusions. Finding out that Lindows is Debian and there friend uses Red Hat might upset people.
Just a thought. Remember, Lindows is the secret Microsoft distro of the future…