Yesterday, we linked to a story about the most recent allegations Sony made against George ‘GeoHot’ Hotz in their ongoing court case. Supposedly, Hotz has sabotaged the hardware he had to hand over, and he had fled the country to further stifle the court case, among other things. Hotz’ lawyer, as well as Hotz himself, have responded to these allegations. The gist? They’re all nonsense.
Let’s start with the accusation that Hotz sabotaged the evidence – namely, hard drives – that had to be handed over to Sony. Ars spoke with one of Hotz’ lawyers, Stewart Kellar, and he was pretty clear. “SCEA’s lawyers are using intentionally ambiguous language so that the public, and the Court, might assume the worst. The ‘components’ SCEA is talking about are hard drives’ controller cards. The neutral [third party examining the drives] subsequently had to explain to SCEA the form and function of hard drive controller cards,” Kellar explained to Ars, “It is a stock part that can be purchased at any electronics hardware store. Those controller cards have since been provided to the neutral so the point is moot.”
The idea that Hotz had fled the country is even crazier, as Hotz himself detailed in a short statement on his website. As it turns out, Hotz is visiting a friend in South America, a vacation that was planned and paid for in November 2010, even before Sony sued Hotz. “I mean, it is Spring break; hacking isn’t my life,” Hotz wrote, “Rest assured that not a dime of legal defense money would ever go toward something like this. And of course Townsend loves the idea of painting me as an international fugitive. I have been in contact with my lawyers almost every day; I would not let the case suffer. That said, I also won’t let this ridiculous lawsuit run my life either. Then the fearmongerers win.”
That part about the defense money is also important: it was said that Hotz was using money donated for his legal costs to travel, but this is utter nonsense both Hotz and Kellar claim. “It should be noted that the donation money George has received is being used exclusively for his legal defense,” Kellar told Ars, “If there are any funds left after the lawsuit, George is planning to donate the money to the EFF.”
Hotz is planning to return to the US soon, because, as he notes, “it’s hard to come by the Xperia Play down here”.
All the things mentioned by Hotz and Kellar are easy enough to prove with receipts, so hopefully, this will go down well during this court case. Of course, so far, the magistrate handling this matter has sided squarely with Sony, so I’m not keeping my hopes up.
Well, it was the neutral party and not SCEA that accused Hotz of delivering tampered/incomplete hard drives. SCEA used the letters between the neutral party and Hotz’s lawyers to file a complaint.
Then when asked for those parts Hotz’s lawyers informed the neutral party that they could not provide them because Hotz was not in the country. Of course, after all the negativity that ensued the parts showed up and were delivered to the neutral party.
The e-mail exchange between the lawyers and the neutral party:
From: Michael Grennier [redacted email address]
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:56 AM
To: Stewart Kellar; Gaudreau, Holly
Cc: Robert Kleeger; Yasha Heidari; Boroumand Smith, Mehrnaz; Bricker, Ryan; Jack C. Praetzellis;
[redacted email address][redacted email address]
Subject: Imaging of encrypted drives. CRM:0003005
All,
We took the drives out of our evidence locker and the evidence bag to image them in their current encrypted state
as stated in the order and agreed to on our phone call yesterday. We have determined that the controller cards
which are screwed onto the hard drives were removed prior to them being given to us. Therefore we are unable
to operate the hard drives in their current state. Keep in mind that we need two days to image these drives as we
have to image two 1TB drives.
I would recommend that Mr. Hotz forward to us immediately both the hard drive controller cards, screws and
anything else he may have including the complete computer system (minus the monitor, keyboard and mouse) so
that we can be prepared to complete the forensic imaging process (both encrypted and un-encrypted).
The drives have been returned to the evidence bag and locker at this time.
Regards,
Mike
Michael Grennier, CFCE, EnCE
TheIntelligenceGroup”
“Merhnaz,
Your concerns are completely unfounded. To the contrary, Mr. Hotz has gone above and beyond what he has been required to do. Mr. Hotz was ordered to provide his hard drives and storage devices on which any circumvention devices were stored– nothing more. As your co-counsel is aware, Mr. Hotz is currently out of the country, so your unilateral demand to have him provide the controllers by noon tomorrow is not only unreasonable, but simply not possible. No explanation is necessary as Mr. Hotz fully complied with the terms of the Court’s order.
Best regards, Yasha
_____________________________________
Yasha Heidari
”
Edited 2011-03-24 23:07 UTC
vs.
Anyone realizing that we are talking about totally distinct pieces of electronics? The complaint about the sabotaged hard drives is _clearly_ talking about the controller circuits which are mounted onto the hard drives. Those are totally different to any external controller cards which plug into the PCI/PCI Express slots of a PC and _cannot_ be purchased at any electronics hardware store.
And I, while I support Geohot in his arguments against Sony regarding the overall process, have to admit that unless the neutral investigators are not making false statements here and the controller circuit boards have been removed from the hard drives, then Geohot has clearly sabotaged the hardware as it not possible to read out the hard drives in such a state unless you are working at a forensic data company like OnTrack and obviously no hard drives are sold without these controller circuit boards.
One has to be very careful to listen to the arguments of both parties and scrutinize the facts as both parties are obviously fighting with unfair weapons.
Adrian
Edited 2011-03-25 10:30 UTC
I believe the device in question is not the hard drive boards, but external encryption devices.
Something akin to the following:
http://www.cooldrives.com/encryption-pci-adapter-x-wall-chip.html
(linked merely because it was the first result – I’m lazy… ).
From all the comments, this appears to be the case.
The e-mail from the neutral seems to indicate that they are able to access the data, but it is encrypted and they need a compatible controller card to decrypt the data.
Which is exactly what I would do if they wanted my hard drives 😉 ( though, they would have a much harder time imaging my hard drive collection… I have 8 or more, I dunno, and a drawer FULL of others…. maybe 30-40 drives… all with data… ).
I rotate 🙂
–The loon
No. If you read the actual email exchange here you will see they are indeed referring to the boards on the drives themselves:
http://www.groklaw.net/pdf2/SonyvHotz-104-19.pdf
A quote: “Your client has not provided a “hard drive†but rather parts of the hard drive. A “hard drive†must contain all the parts that make it a working device which include the enclosure, platters, heads and attached controller card. This controller card is installed at the factory and not normally removed or handled by an end user.”
Ah.. never read that.
Thanks for the link.
Oh well, time will tell what happens…
–The loon
This part made me believe what I said:
“Mr. Hots was ordere to provide his hard drives and storage devices on which any circumvention devices were stored– nothing more.”
I read that as being he provided the drives, not the means to read them ( i.e. and attached encryption device ) – now I see that as referring to the PS3 hacking itself…
Edited 2011-03-27 17:03 UTC
Sounds like the accusations are very well founded. Furthermore, it does sound like he fled the country specifically to impede progress. Furthermore, it clearly implies he’s made effort to obstruct the investigation or at worse, destroyed evidence.
Corporations do not allow people to access the HW they buy and rightfully own. And yet these very same corporations get to access HW they did not buy and which does not belong to them.
Oh, well…
Edited 2011-03-24 23:55 UTC
He agreed to allow them to access the information because according to him, it vindicates him. And yet, seemingly its validating all accusations.
When Sony make allegations, he’s forced into a defensive position. To me, when anybody’s in a position of defending themselves against a barrage of accusations – true or false – it eventually whittles away your credibility. An unfortunate reality (well, more my perception than reality.)
This is the age of sound bites. Outside of court, defending one self in the media is wasted breath. It lends credibility to the accuser and diminishes your own.
Hotz needs accusations of his own and he should be unrelenting.
How much more nonsense does Sony have to make up before the court finally declares them full of shit?
Sony repeatedly makes bogus accusations, GeoHot and his lawyers fully debunk them. And is the lawsuit even out of the “keep-this-in-California” phase yet? Has it got, you know, to the entire point of the suit in the first place–whether or not hacking your PS3 is legal as it is for cell phones and other mobile devices?
I don’t know why GeoHot is so intrigued by the Xperia or whatever the hell it is, or *any* Sony device for that matter. I’ve seen an interview of him on YouTube where he describes his opinion on the subject, but I still do not see how–even with all the bullshit Sony is spewing out about him–he is still interested in buying/using their products.
I think he’s far, far too trusting and gives them way too much respect, especially considering what they’re doing to him. Still, I respect what he’s doing for proprietary hardware “owners” around the world… even though it’s Sony who brought on the court battle, not him.
What are you talking about? Hotz left the country exactly as asserted by Sony. The third party says the complete drives have not been provided. Hotz says that’s a problem because he fled the country. Hotz even admits Sony is correct, in that he’s in South America. If this were a criminal case, it would likely be enough to justify evidence tampering and/or destruction of evidence and fleeing the country.
Thus far, Hotz is doing a wonderful job of making making it appear he’s uncooperative, deceitful, fled the country, evidence tampering and/or destruction of evidence.
If anything, Hotz is completely vindicating Sony in their case. Thus far, it doesn’t appear Sony is in the wrong here.
You may have issue with the cause given for the initial suit, but ignoring that, Sony is clearly smelling good here.
You people’s unwavering support for this crook just amazes me. This is like if someone buys a car from Ford, turns it into a flying car, sells the know-how for everyone else to make the engineering changes, then when Ford sues because some customers’ hacked cars don’t work right for their original purpose, everyone comes to the aid of the hacker! Ridiculous.
But that is a good thing. If you buy a car from Ford, you are allowed to do whatever you please. People do, and sell, modifications to regular cars all the time. Some of those modifications can make your car not work sooner, or even immediately. Ford has no dog in that fight. As long as the person selling the modifications, or the plans for the modification, do not claim to represent Ford, there is nothing you, I, or Ford can do. Theoretically, this should be applicable in the computer world. It isn’t because of stupid laws made by bought, corrupt politicians. Frankly, if you aren’t on the hackers side, you are against every person that has ever rigged anything to work outside the box. And that is damn near everybody on Earth.
Why on Earth would Ford want to sue someone because they modified their own car and now it doesn’t work? If anything were to happen, it would probably be the owner suing Ford for their car breaking down too soon. And that sort of case should be thrown out straight away, seeing as modifying your own car would void your warranty, and so it not working is your own responsibility. It’s ridiculous that you think Ford should sue anyone for modifying their own car!
Oh, and a small point there: I wasn’t aware Geohot was *selling* the know-how, was anyone else here?
I didn’t realize the case had been completed and Mr Hotz found unequivically guilty of any crime? Maybe we want to wait until he’s actually found guilty before assigning guilt? Seems there is somethign in the legal system about it suposingly working that way.
As other’s have also pointed out. Your desire for a world where corporate business interests dictate private citizen’s legal freedoms is a very scary one. You really aught to rethink that as the freedom to reverse engineer and modify one’s own rightfully purchased property is a corner stone of technological advancement and engineering.
As for the car analogy; what does Ford care if a car owner’s vehicle has been modified beyond being street legal? It’s not Ford’s concern; it’s purely between the owner and the local police assuming the first is driving the vehicle on public roads patrolled by the second. Is it also unacceptable to you if a car owner modifies there vehicle beyond being street legal then only drives it on closed tracks?
I don’t think anyone is assigning guilt. I believe people are addressing the fact, based on what’s available so far, he’s working very hard to incriminate himself and validate Sony’s claims.
Thus far, he’s working hard to make himself appear very guilty.
This is a very poor analogy. As other have said it is solely on the owner’s responsibility to maintain the car’s street legality, if the owner does modifications that make it no longer fulfill the legality requirements then it’s again only the owner who is at fault. It has nothing to do with Ford.
Secondly, Ford itself also encourages one to modify one’s car. Even just something as small as adding neon lights, or replacing speakers is still a modification, and you can find plenty of such information on their forums. And that’s perfectly all right.
Thirdly, Ford would be stupid to go out and start suing people. It is just extra money for them if people blow up their cars and have to buy new ones!
You do know that this is perfectly legal right? Or are you just completly ignorant?
Yes, its exactly like that exact that its completely unlike that. LOL.
The simple fact is, Ford doesn’t even sale their vehicles at a loss so they can make money on parts and service – which IS what Sony does. Furthermore, Sony is protected by various IP laws, none of which are comparable to your poor analogy.
Speaking of Hotz… this is not ment as critique of his work or anything. Just a simple observation…
Anyone noticed something weird about him? In his videos he can go from happy to serious to looking almost depressed to just acting plain weird. And why does one of his eyelids move independantly up and down when he speaks? Take an extra notice in the interview on his blog.
Is our young hero a bit mad? Don’t tell me I’m the only one who have noticed this?
Am I understanding this right? He handed over hard drives after removing the green boards that come attached to them? This isn’t him handing over fully functional hard drives without some seporate PCI daughter board stuffed between hard drives and motherboard?
The little controller boards that come attached to the hard drive when you buy it.. why would someone remove those other than to be a doush? When I buy hard drives, they don’t arrive with a note saying “now just go out to your local store and buy the circuite board normally found attached as part of this product. What next.. Is flash storage to be handed over as raw flash chips once removed from the thumdrive’s board?
I think Sony’s case needs to be laughed out of court promptly but both sides behaving like children doesn’t resolve the issue. I really hope the situation is being incorrectly reported otherwise this seems about the same as Mr Gates being childishly obtuse during questioning.
Exactly, he handed over drives with parts missing (or more acurrately – intentionally removed).
Search the message boards, blogs, etc and you will find all sorts of cases where a user brings his game system, phone, computer, whatever, into the shop or store where he bought it, with it broken, unable to boot, etc, and the store finds out during the fixit process that it has been hacked, kernel replaced, firmware replaced that it was DESIGNED to work with, etc. And when the user is told their equipment cannot be fixed or supported because it is no longer stock, that user gets all bent out of shape and goes on EVERY board they can find, calling the company names, slamming their products and policies, when in reality, it was HIMSELF that modified his gadgets beyond what they were DESIGNED to be and do. Or he might try to sue the manufacturer for not telling him that his gadget could be rendered useless if he modifies the firmware, etc. That’s the sort of thing I am talking about. But I would be willing to bet any amount of money, that he would find support on here and other boards, because the gadget was HIS, he bought it and can do whatever he wants to it, and the company should support that unwaveringly. To that I say, NO.
Edited 2011-03-25 13:51 UTC
Fair enough.
I doubt that would stand up in court, unless the manufacturers’ lawyers were incompetent enough to write a warranty that didn’t explicitly exclude that.
I guess it depends on what you mean by “find support”. Are there some folks who would support him? Perhaps; the world is full of dumb people. Would most people on this board support him? I doubt that. The GPL fans would have to disagree with that route out of consistency; otherwise any user who tinkered with GPL code, and broke their system, let alone their hardware, could sue them. (The GPL explicitly excludes even the implied warranty of merchantability or fitness for a purpose).
It’s unfortunate that we live in a lawsuit-happy world, and that corporations have to squander money defending themselves against frivolous lawsuits. On the other hand, the same corporations haven’t shown themselves averse to filing frivolous lawsuits. Even supporters of software patents admit that a great number of the lawsuits out there are nonsense.
Edited 2011-03-25 14:18 UTC
It’s unfortunate that we live in a lawsuit-happy world
Seems to imply you live in the US. The US is quite likely the most litigious country in the history of mankind. In much of the rest of the world, they are typically not quite so idiotic. In fact, the closer you get to New York and California, the stronger the idiocy seems to become.
And there you have it… hackers need to be locked up because they provide tools to fscking morons who don’t know how to use them properly.
While we’re at it, let’s outlaw screwdrivers because they might open up their devices and fiddle with them. You keep trying to defend your position there buddy – the rest of us are planning to actually live our free lives.
Wow, damn, you sure aren’t one of the sharper tools. You do realize, I hope, that there’s a difference between a void warranty and a court case? No one is saying Sony has to support hacked devices, dumbass.
Yes, he can.
No, they dont have to.
I will never buy again from Sony. Enough said.
a) http://www.groklaw.net/pdf2/SonyvHotz-104-19.pdf
Hotz intentionally removed the controller boards from the hard drives themselves (and we’re NOT talking about a PCI/RAID card as some try to spin it), and…
b) has traveled out of the country while other people fund his legal bills.
What a schmuck!
Edited 2011-03-25 19:33 UTC
If you care to read he had actually paid for the tickets way before he got sued in 2010.
Proof??? …and what about other money being spent while there?
“The money being sent for legal fees is entirely separate… I’m paying for the whores and blow out of my own pocket!”
“The money being sent for legal fees is entirely separate… I’m paying for the whores and blow out of my own pocket!”
Why are you quoting Sony executives?
Hotz doesn’t look any better than Sony in this crap case at this point.
Well, im sure he has a job or income of some sort. Perhaps he is using THAT for his travels?
Edited 2011-03-25 22:17 UTC
It seems highly inappropriate that he is traveling the world while others’ pay his legal fees…
Again, even if he didn’t travel he still wouldn’t have been able to pay the legal fees himself. And as he paid for the tickets way before he got sued the money ain’t in any way or form away from the donations.
Besides, why is it inappropriate for him to want some reprieve from all this ruckus when Sony executives themselves travel around the world and party away and you ain’t saying a thing? That is called hypocrisy, you know. He is fulfilling all the requirements defined by the court and does make himself available 24/7, and thus there simply is nothing “inappropriate” in him seeing his friend.
I wouldn’t call intentionally trying to sabotage data recovery from the hard drives to exactly be ‘fulfilling all the requirements’ in a forthright manner. …not to mention using the excuse of him being out of the country so as to be unable to supply the missing parts he should have provided to begin with…
Given the above, and that both Hotz and his lawyer acted in a shady manner on that issue, it calls into question his true reason for travel. Remember, this was in dealing with the neutral third party and not even Sony on that.
In any case, it’s not hypocrisy at all. Again, Hotz is the one who committed the offense and is ‘suffering’ under the kindness of strangers to pay his way on this case. The responsible thing would be to avoid any behavior which suggests an act of impropriety.
Meh, it’s more like fucking with them and seriously, if you have a hard time replacing missing controllers maybe you shouldnt call yourself a recovery expert.
That’s more a fact than an excuse. He’s abroad so obviously he can’t supply them right now.
Really? What happened to innocent until proven guilty?
Umm, the controllers were delivered to the 3rd party already before Sony made the first press announcement. His lawyer went and delivered them.
a) it’s not really fucking with them, it’s just making himself look like he has something to hide… doubly so since this is dealing with the neutral third party and not just screwing around with Sony.
b) This is not about the ‘recovery expert’ and to turn it around on them is silly. He was asked to supply his hard drives, not just parts from his hard drive.
We don’t know the true reasons he’s out of the country. If he behaved in a duplicitous manner in regard to the hard drives, it’s hard to say what else he’s being less than honest about.
He, also, can’t be so stupid as to think they wouldn’t ask for those missing parts.
[/q]
Whether that offense carries legal weight is up to the court. In the meantime, he’s playing games. It’s hard to feel sympathetic for someone doing that while his fees are paid with other people’s money.
There’s nothing to hide in the controllers.
He sent them the important part of the hard drives, the actual storage media, in good condition. There’s nothing of importance in the controllers.
Obviously he was thinking something like “yeah, Fuck you Sony. Figure this out”.
He’s a defendant, not an offender. It’s only an offense if hes found guilty.
He was being horribly immature and acting in a duplicitous manner. He achieved nothing but to make himself and his attorney look bad. There was no rational reason, whatsoever, for removing the boards off the hard drives themselves…
That anyone would try to defend such behavior is unsurprising but ineffective.
Sure, but being immature does not make you guilty.
Other than fucking with some people who are being royal assholes, no.
Do you think that type of behavior improves his credibility when involved in a court case?
No. Sony wasn’t inconvenienced at all… He was merely causing issues with a neutral 3rd party.
Actually, that’s not true. We’re not talking about commodity controllers. We’re talking about controller boards which came with the drive. Frequently, they can not be read without using the same controller and even firmware as what came with the drive.
This is clearly an effort to prevent copying of the drivers which strongly implies he has lots to hide. Its childish in the least. Even more so, courts don’t like the kind of idiocy he’s promoting.
in order to escape… a civil case?
Happens all the time. That statement is silly.
Hotz is in South America
Sounds like he left the country to me. Sure, he may intend to come back but nobody but him knows this for sure.
Kellar told Ars that it’s impossible to take a vacation from a lawsuit,
Yes, its clearly so impossible there exist specific procedures to deal with this extremely common issue.
Could their reply be any more absurd? It would be difficult.
Let’s see, party A sues. Party B leaves the country. Party B says accounts provided by A isn’t true because the assertions are true. WTH?!