Unlike Apple and Microsoft, and despite numerous demands from their users, Linux distributions have been traditionally unable to directly ship the popular Adobe Flash Player with their packages, due to the closed source nature of the software and the restrictive license chosen by Adobe. While it does seems shorter than a regular EULA made by Microsoft with all the legalese that goes with it, it does still restrict redistribution in most cases, and the FAQ seemed to be clear about that point.
Community distributions such as Debian, Gentoo or Ubuntu decided to use a hack to dynamically download the plugin in order to respect the license while trying to fulfil desire of their users.
Some others decided to contact Adobe directly, such as Warren Togami did before being hired by Red Hat to work on the Fedora Project in 2004. However, since the start of a more official support of Linux by Adobe, the FAQ has been changed to explain that custom agreement will only be done “on an extremely limited basis“.
Yet, today the latest release candidate of Mandriva was announced by Eugeni Donodov on the official blog without much fanfare and the terse changelog did forget to mention an important change. Starting with 2011.0, the Flash plugin will be installed by default on all products, and be distributed as an integrated part of the system by the regular network of mirrors. It was previously offered only to paying customers as part of their commercial Powerpack offer.
At the beggining of the month, a mail on the developer list started the discussion, which was quickly closed by a decision from the management.
However, the community seemed to realize the change only today and it triggered some reaction by a mirror admin concerned about his liability in case of copyright violation. Michael Scherer, a long time member of the community sent an email explaining that the situation was wrong according to his information, quoting past experiences with Adobe and the license on the website of the software giant.
As one of the leading members of the BSA, Adobe demonstrated with the Sklyarov case 10 years ago that they would take any breach of their copyright and intellectual properties very seriously, not fearing to bring the issue to US court. Neither Adobe nor Mandriva commented on the issue at the time of writing this news.
Is this the start of a new age regarding Linux distributions, or the beginning of a new soap opera regarding Mandriva, after the recent rpm5 fiasco and the Mageia story?
You have to skate where the puck is going to be, not where it was.
Someone’s been reading Gruber today ^^.
Guilty 🙂
Ain’t that something Linux Mint has been doing since forever?
I thought Mandriva One included flash already as well.
what is this article about exactly? am i missing something?
It’s been a while since I tried Mandriva One but I think you’re wrong.
Yes that’s true. The Adobe Flash Player have been boundled with Mandriva One for years.
What have changed now is that now Mandriva will only publish one official Mandriva flavour, and that one won’t be a fully free one.
But the will also distribute community editions which of course can be 100% free.
Commercial software should be downloaded and installed on-demand, not by installed by default.
Except that in this case, much of the internet won’t work at all without it. And yes, we can whine all we want about how dumb that is – overuse of Flash is dumb – but that won’t change the situation, at least not for a while.
IMO we need functionality by default, not ideology. Proprietary software may be inconvenient at times, but it is definitely here to stay, and if the Linux crowd doesn’t cotton onto that idea their operating system will probably die off on the desktop.
Edit: oh yeah, just to be clear, I use Linux.
Edited 2011-07-30 01:30 UTC
Much of the Internet?
It would already be exaggerated to say much of the Web, but much of the Internet is borderline hilarious.
Lets assume for a moment that “normal people” don’t use email, never use file sharing (ha!) and don’t use any special purpose client software like games or media libraries.
Lets assume that these Internet users solely use a Web browser, what do you really need Flash for?
News portals? No
Travel or hotel booking? No
Online shopping? No
Online banking? Never heard of a bank requiring Flash but maybe there are some that don’t want any customers.
I mean one of the main use cases of tablets is web browsing and the leading device (iPads) doesn’t have Flash.
So I am sorry but I can’t buy “much of the Internet won’t work at all without it”
anda_skoa,
“Lets assume that these Internet users solely use a Web browser, what do you really need Flash for?”
To address the question directly: Flash/Java/Silverlight (pick your poison) are needed for highly interactive content. Arguably many users prefer that the websites they visit every day are not highly interactive, but never the less sometimes high interactivity is desired.
As a web developer myself, I run into situations where HTML/Javascript are completely lacking. For one thing, Javascript/DOM performance remains terrible. Secondly, it’s severely limited in what it’s able to do. The lack of standardized rasterization and svg makes client side charting extremely difficult or impossible without supporting proprietary plugins/extensions. There are many different hacks, but the most reliable and non-proprietary way to do charts/vectors is to render them on the server instead (mapquest/google earth/analytic charts). While this achieves the desired affect in a portable way, I dread these kinds of inefficient workarounds.
“I mean one of the main use cases of tablets is web browsing and the leading device (iPads) doesn’t have Flash.”
For apple, the battle against evil flash was a diversion (highly successful one I might add). You see apple’s intent was to release a tablet where users are tethered to their walled garden. Flash posed a significant threat to their business model; particularly for games and other interactive content. Apple knew users would be happy to download interactive content from the web instead of from the istore, they also knew that developers would be keen to avoid the apple store police and high fees if they could still reach users. So apple banned all emulators and sideloading. They blamed technical problems with flash as the reason users would be banned from highly interactive web apps on their devices. They then promoted HTML5 to fill the gap, fully knowing that HTML5 is not able to deliver the same functionality as the applications in their store.
The conclusion here is just that apple banned flash on the basis of a threat to their business model, not on the basis that it has no utility to users.
Edited 2011-07-30 11:09 UTC
Agreed. I didn’t mean to imply that there was no use case for such technologies, there definitely are.
I was just opposing the assertion that a large part of web based offerings (which are even only one specific use case of the Internet) would not be available without.
I’d wager that it is actually only a small fraction of “the Internet” that requires this.
I am quoting you in full on this because this is so very true.
However, I did not mean to imply that Flash was not necessary or important because Apple not supporting it on their iDevices.
What I meant was that I would not buy into the “much of the Internet(sic) would not work without it at all” argument because shutting out iDevice users is not something that is done lightly.
I have encountered quite some sites that had been using Flash for stuff that didn’t require it and have now changed to something more appropriate in order to also support customers with iDevices.
Maybe for mainstream Linux but not general Linux distros with have FOSS at their heart. The distro breaks is principles by shipping proprietary software. A simple solution would be to make Flash and such software easy to install, which the likes of Ubuntu and openSUSE do.
Fedora will never do it but they’re fine with that and so am I.
If you feel that way, check out Fuduntu,
http://www.fuduntu.org/
LOL. No one of the sites I visiting daily use flash.
Mainly news and programming-oriented stuff, blogs.
And I browsing’em all in iOS without any issue.
I wonder if any useful sites still use flash? I don’t play flash games.
Edited 2011-07-30 15:19 UTC
OSNews is one of the few sites I visit that doesn’t use Flash. My news site uses Flash for video excerpts, YouTube does use Flash, Gmail uses a Flash file for real-time I/O, etc…
Yes, some sites use flash to post videos. But I can’t remember the last time I had trouble with that.
Anyway this is a good reason to abandon proprietary web tech.
h.264 can be evil or not, but it is supported by a number of companies in contrast to anemic bug makers – adobe.
I don’t like to support Flash and manufacturers who choiced an “easy way” and included it.
Youtube has html5 version. Embedded youtube videos are viewable on iOS. iOS has custom youtube app anyway.
I/O of what?
Edited 2011-08-02 08:06 UTC
The user should have the choice of feature complete fit for there needs. The distribution should have the choice of what legally distributable software it includes by default for the target user. There can be both feature complete distros and opt-in distros. Let Mandriva and Mint include it. Debian can still place it in the opt-in “non-free” repositor.
To be honest, I’ve thought it nuts that Canonical claims to deliver a distro for everybody especially new users yet it took a fork to Mint for “new user” commodity polish like more complete hardware support, codecs, flash and such. If new and average users are the target customer then one should favour enabling that type of user.
Linux Mint does not only install Flash but also various proprietary codecs by default. I’m not sure how legal it is or how they get away with it, but I figured I’d end up having to install the codecs anyway, so as long as LMDE maintains compatibility with Debian Testing, I’m cool.
Mint’s mirrors are probably located in a place of the world where it’s legal to redistribute flash player and non-free codecs with linux distros, like a large part of Europe (inc. Turkey).
Don’t know how long this situation will last, though (in France, I think DeCSS has been made illegal some years ago by the DADVSI law, as an example). But for now, these countries are blessed with very good OOB Linux distro UX.
Edited 2011-08-01 09:33 UTC
What’s so hard about installing Flash manually? Flash is one of those things that need to be strictly up to date due to the constant security issues anyway.
http://www.fedorafaq.org/#flash
Or on Windows … download the installer.
Edited 2011-07-30 09:41 UTC
On Windows:
– find Adobe website
– find download link for flash player
– download active X plugin installer
– download mozilla/chrome plugin installer
– run active X plugin installer
– run active mozilla/chrome plugin installer
To update:
– repeat regularily for at least one that doesn’t install from the “update available” notice popup
On Debian:
– enable “non-free” repository if not enabled already
# aptitude update
# aptitude install flashplugin-nonfree
To update:
# update-flashplugin-nonfree –install
Or, use the graphic package manager
On Mint
– nothing, I think it’s installed by default given the distribution’s intended user.
On Mandriva, I remember it being a single package install also. Oh, maybe two steps; visit easyRPM website to enable non-free repository, install flashplayer package.
Really, all of these including Windows are rediculous. Regardless of OS, the browser should simply offer to install the flashplayer plugin from it’s normal plugin repository on first use like it would with any other media plugin. The framework for install and update delivery exists already.
You are slightly exaggerating how difficult it is to install since most websites will include a link to Adobe flash when it is detected that it isn’t installed.
Firefox actually prompts you to install when it encounters flash content … and you can add the plugin via Firefox’s interface … I am sure Chrome already has Chrome included … I can’t remember now.
Yes I agree with the sentiment, Fuduntu (new Linux distro based off Fedora) much like mandriva, is including flash. It is licensed.
Would be nice if Flash was just included in Windows and they would release a source distribution so that it would be possible to patch for OSs like OpenBSD.
I hope that you realize that if people trust any web page and so don’t go to the official sites… there are a lot of infections and consequently botnets due to installing things that are not what they tell to be.
As I keep on pointing out … common sense is the best defense against malware.
Or use the Ninite installer at http://updateflash.org/ which installs both Firefox and IE Flash plugins without installing toolbars or other crapware in the process.
I just open up Firefox and the first time it hits a website that needs Flash, it prompts me to install, and it’s done. (I assume other browsers work the same way). IMHO, that’s better than the command-line bullshit you gotta do in many Linux distros. See, one is easy, the other is intuitive. Do you understand the difference?
Edited 2011-07-31 04:17 UTC
That kind of hints have made botnets possible. In Windows, instead of people going to the official site, they are told to install what they are told in any web page. Who knows what they are installing?
If you choose one of the best distributions, like Kubuntu, to install a package you can use a GUI. Or the command line (*) if you need it. Each one has its advantages, as you probably know.
(*) I executed a simple sudo apt-get install kubuntu-restricted-extras, without adding extra repositories nor doing anything else.
Edited 2011-07-31 11:26 UTC
Actually Firefox finds you the correct plugin … are you saying Mozilla cannot be trusted to give you the right link to flash … seriously?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86UbHd8Fh3A&feature=player_profilepa…
But apt in general is a bit shit anyway …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqQMqQxf-Ik&feature=player_profilepa…
http://tmrepository.com/trademarks/useesotericworkarounds/
Edited 2011-08-01 03:09 UTC
We were talking about going to the official site to download software, that includes the official site of Firefox, not web pages that, for example, say “Download Firefox there”. Also people must beware if Firefox says that one site asks for the “FIash plug-in” [let’s notice it’s not “Flash”, but “FIash”, with a capital “i”] and people click to install it, because sometimes the plug-in it’s a surprise, like the trojan horse one.
I use apt normally, in the latest Kubuntu, 11.04 (it’s not Ubuntu 10.04 like the video one) and I can install Wine without errors. I can talk about what I use.
If, instead of using a GUI and instead of using the command that was shown, you want to use esoteric commands, you are free to do it.
Edited 2011-08-01 16:51 UTC
Anyone can also install the latest Kubuntu in a virtual machine and install Wine and see it for himself. It’s free, and there are no license problems 🙂
Well this is down to common sense isn’t it.
Anyway it is standard practice to give a link to flash if the player isn’t installed/enabled. I am not just leave a gaping hole on my webpage with no explaination to user as to why they aren’t seeing what they are expecting.
It’s good that you give explanations to users, there has been no discussion about it. The problem is saying people to follow the orders that they are given when they arrive to any web page.
Edited 2011-08-02 08:20 UTC
Fedorafaq.org geared more to advanced users who want to use terminal (prompt in Microsoft Windows world). Simply use any browser to go Adobe Flash website, choose either yum or rpm. Using yum will allow use to update from that repository.
Right now, flash is delivered as an installer that drops a browser addon into your system. It should be packaged like a proper addon and delivered through FF/Chrome addon sites and IE option to install on first use.
No distro specific package format.
Easy install by user regardless of os.
Inclusion into an existing auto-update system.
No more issue between distributions and licenses.
It’s rather a Jeff Johnson fiasco. And not even the first one.
If something is a fiasco it’s the usage of a fundamental software in a distro which is developed by a primadonna.
I’m not sure which distro the submitter is using, but lots of Linux distros ship with Flash enabled. Those that don’t have Adboe’s Flash will often include Gnash. It’s getting rare to find a distro that doesn’t include one or the other.
Mandriva is still alive? Good for them I guess?
I actually thought Mandriva had gone belly up. Glad to hear they’re still alive.
They might as well have gone under. Mageia honestly seems like a better Mandriva than Mandriva itself. I don’t know what the hell Mandriva was thinking when they decided to do away with the traditional installer DVDs and go all-out live DVD, and worse… what they did to the KDE menu, replacing it was some crap menu that’s slow as hell and takes up the whole damn screen. I tried RC2, and I’m not impressed… at all.
Isn’t that the operable term here? Would it have killed Adobe to just release Flash under some sort of controlled open source license, just allowing it to be distributed, but still being under their control? We already have too many audio, video and document formats because every company has to have their own. Flash is restricted so Microsoft felt compelled to make Silverlight, and around and around we go.
Yes, developers include flash player by default in distro. For test, etc. But its not mean, that still alive in final!
Currently we remove all non-free thing like flash, codecs, etc to separate repository and as we finish this, mandriva was clean.
This is article is just as fucking clueless as the other one written, you obviously total insight on neither rpm5, events that lead to mageia, nor adobe flash troll by Michael Schere.
You’d better learn from Jonathan Corbet which wrote the other rpm5 article recently which actually did a good article without revealing great ignorance and arrogance..
RPM5 has not been a fiasco whatsoever, and everyone now agrees on it was the correct and it works perfect, and way better than rpm 4.x..
Please stop your ignorant slander and try work on morre well-informed/serious journalistic than writing about what you don’t know jack shit about, don’t even try to (you did not ask for any input from jeff or me at all, in contract to Corbet, this is really poor journalism and totally clueless).
Seriously, there’s a reason for less and less people read osnews, reading poorly written articles about technical stuff the author know, AND slandering projects due to this arrogant ignorance of, people has mostly stopped read you over the last years.
Shape up or slip out, and if you wanna slam on rpm5, I’m for a debate, you’re very welcome to speak to me directly, with an exclusive interview provided.
It would be an honour, but untill you do anything of such sort, I *WILL* start slandering your incompetence on osnews.com frequently when I see retard FUD against RPM, Mandriva og anything else I’m involved with..
Who maintains RPM? (2011 edition)
http://lwn.net/Articles/440447/
I *WILL* be very happy to give you an excellent interview, whatever internal details and technical details and the actual real advantages of rpm5 which made us go for it as the only viable option, while also giving you our side about what really happened during the mageia fork.
As noone has even asked or showed interest in this in stead of of trashing mandriva based on slandering and hostility towards mandriva incited by a few employees which didn’t get to keep their job (where redundancy did *NOT* play the biggest role at all for why they weren’t “welcome” to come over to mandriva liquidation), I’d be happy to tell you the *real* story, which I was the only who personally was very much involved with at first and pushed for the foundation since 2007 (THEY BLOCKED AND CONSIDERED A THREAT), I know all to well about all the fishy details.
So if you want a good story and also write something people won’t just dismiss as trash stories, but of technical interest and all, I urge you to get in touch:
[email protected]
If not, please stop slandering me, my associates and everything we do based on ignorance and FUD from an extremely biased and hostile crowd.