Why, would you look at this. All this time we were expecting Apple to be the first one to flip the switch and limit desktop users to Mac App Store applications and turn Mac OS X into a walled garden, but in fact, Microsoft will be the first to flip this switch. As it turns out, Metro applications can only be installed through the Windows Store – with sideloading only for enterprises and developers (this doesn’t apply to legacy applications).
I hadn’t yet thought about all this yet, what, with the massive shift from the desktop to Metro in Windows 8. However, as MSDN explains, Metro applications in Windows 8 can only be installed through the Windows Store. Sideloading will only be enabled for enterprises and developers. I’m also fairly sure the relevant registry key will be easily toggled for us geeks.
“All roads, as the saying goes, lead to the Windows Store,” Microsoft writes, “For Metro style apps, that is, the Windows Store is the only means of general distribution (enterprise customers and developers can bypass the store to side-load apps).”
Microsoft mentions the usual benefits, and I’m sure those are all pretty valid. The company does take a 30% cut here, similar to what Apple takes for iOS and Mac OS X. Still, the idea that a vanilla installation of a desktop operating system – without any, probably warranty-voiding registry editing – will be restricted to Microsoft-approved applications doesn’t sit well with me.
This doesn’t apply to desktop-style applications, but in all honesty, I want to move forward to Metro as soon as possible, since the frantic switching between two paradigms makes me crazy – Metro in and of itself is enough of a shift in user interface that I I’m not too fond of the legacy/Metro dichotomy on top of it.
As Daniel Eran Dilger (sorry for the link to that guy, guys, but credit where it’s due) notes, this could possibly affect iTunes as well – in a sort of application store Inception-style craziness. At this point, nothing is known about in-application purchases, but if Microsoft applies the same rules to the Windows Store as Apple enforces in its own application store, then a possible Metro version of iTunes would be in trouble. Purchases through iTunes would require a 30% cut to Microsoft. Basically, Apple would face the same problem Barnes & Noble and Amazon faced in the iOS App Store.
That’s some very, very delightful irony right there.
Ugh.
Yeah, I think that about says it.
Apple has demonstrated very well that the application store model, where they take a cut for simple distributing the applications is a money win. Actually who was the first to do this, because I know Steam is also very successful.
It’s a jail win. Those who like jails will appreciate.
My understanding is that iOS5 no longer needs iTunes to sync and activate so I don’t think maintaining the application will be a priority for Apple, moving forward.
iTunes is free anyway so this is not an issue for Apple. If Microsoft insisted on getting a cut of all in app purchases then that would be a problem.
I have to laugh every time someone says iTunes is no longer required to sync.
Download a song from Amazon MP3.
How do you get it into iTunes on iOS, so you can play it?
Sync with iTunes.
Use iCloud…
Last I read, Icloud is only available on osX machines which already have Itunes installed by default. The issue here is machines which do not have Itunes installed by default; can itunes_win32 users load content into there ithingy through Apple’s hosted storage?
Having an itunes client and self-activation on the device should have been in place from the very start; at minimum, the iphone/itouch and anything more recent. This new/revolutionary/world-changing/never-been-done feature is long overdue.
Sadly, not an option in my country. My CD collection however – that would be problem.
Well in some relatively few and far between – but lucrative – markets, iTunes is probably bound to remain, for quite some time, also a major way to organize, listen, and buy music. Or at least, I imagine Apple would very much like that – and without the discussed interference from MS, of the type which Apple did to books in their Appstore.
Edited 2011-09-28 00:01 UTC
I don’t consider Metro apps to be desktop applications anyway, so I don’t really see a difference between this and Apple’s approach.
I really hope MS is forcing the Metro UI in the developer preview just to get the ball rolling, because If they’re thinking that we’re all going to change our desktop applications for full screen glorified gadgets, then they’ve totally lost their minds.
Yeah, these Microsoft Bob… I mean, Metro apps are probably going to be exclusive to tablets, and tech tards using them on desktops.
I’m not saying that forbidding side loading is a good thing, but irrelevant to those of us who actually know what side loading means, because we’ll be using the real (eg – ‘classic’) desktop.
Edited 2011-09-21 00:22 UTC
No, as Microsoft explain at the recent Build conference Metro is the future of Windows. Metro is built on WinRT which replaces the Win32 API which Microsoft now considers ‘legacy’. There won’t be any further updates to ‘the desktop mode’.
The future is Metro. Metro is the future.
What, you mean like how Win32 was considered legacy when the .NET framework came along? LOL, Metro ain’t replacing shit, except maybe for grandma. Tell you what… whenever MS rewrites Visual Studio and their other core apps as pure Metro apps (WITHOUT having to fall back to their desktop counterparts to get any real functionality), then we’ll talk about Win32 being legacy.
Edited 2011-09-21 01:26 UTC
Oh, if you say so… LOL
Your comments would lead me to believe that you never listened to any of the keynotes. MS said that there are content CONSUMPTION and content CREATION applications. Metro is designed for the former. And MS said there is a market for the latter. There are plenty of consumption apps that will continue to be sold (Photoshop, Premiere, MS Office, etc).
Edited 2011-09-21 01:50 UTC
Right, when I said what I did, I was replying to the other guy who implied that Metro was supposed to replace Win32, which of course is a bunch of horse shit.
WinRT is going to be replacing win32.
Did you even watch that they said at build?
Yeah, they SAY a lot of things. As I said before, show me a pure, 100% Metro build of Visual Studio, and then we’ll talk about how Win32 is going away …
Their next version of visual studio will be written using WinRT. Admittedly I have no idea what UI it will have but Microsoft is migrating everything WinRT. Win32 is now considered ‘legacy’ and will (eventually) become an optional install.
It will be years though. The Visual Studio release cycle is 3-4 years and their in the middle of one right now (next version will be due just after Win 8) and only then will they launch on a WinRT version.
In case you care, the word on campus is that there will be a more consumption oriented rendition of Metro that will see the light of day with Microsoft Office.
The impression I got was that there was more to come – that the focus on BUILD was on Metro and tablets with the traditional desktop side of WRT coming in a later build. The basic underlying thrust is that they wanted all the focus for this BUILD being on what they’re going to deliver in the way of an operating system on tablets – they didn’t want this event to be over shadowed by any other announcement hence this obsessive focus on touch and tablet computers.
Win32 ISN’T going away. And WinRT IS replacing Win32 FOR METRO APPS. I’m not sure why some of you are so confused. It’s not that difficult to understand.
If you are targeting Windows 8+ then why would you use Win32?
Win32 is included in Win8 as LEGACY so developers who are targeting older versions of Windows for applications that utilize Win32, then those apps will run in Win8 as well…. but only a moron would target any future version of Windows using Win32…. by the time Windows 10 comes around, there will not be a need for native Win32 and any application that needs it will probably be relegated to a VM.
Hence…. WinRT is the future and completely replaces Win32 for Win8+.
Maybe because people already know Win32, and (for better or worse) it’s not going anywhere? Sure, MS says WinRT is the next greatest thing, but didn’t they say the same thing about .NET/Silverlight/WPF? In 5-10 years, they’re going to have a brand new API for you to learn that they’re going to say will REALLY replace Win32, ‘And hey… we REALLY mean it this time!’
The only thing you can count on where MS is concerned is that they’re going to change their minds whenever Apple or somebody else releases the next game changer. Unless they start showing us updated core Metro apps that don’t have Win32 equivalents, you can guarantee that Win32 is here to stay.
maybe MS should stop moving forward because people know win32?
Seriously?
WinRT has no future. Win8 will relegate it to legacy. It will be only of use to those wishing to target winXP, Vista, and Win7 along with Win8.
in 10 years when no on gives a crap about winxp, vista or 7… Win32 will be about as much of a concern as 16 bit programming is in windows today.
Imagine people had the same idea about POSIX. I think many developers prefer gentle evolution, not revolution and re-tooling every 5 years.
Wow….
How about I MEANT…. Win32 has no future…. WTF was I typing.
In other words, probably just to those who – looking at prevailing trends (XP a majority of web stats 9 years after its release, full decade later it’s still #1 used OS; and likely still has absolute majority, corporate desktops are under-represented) – want to target what might very well still be the majority of Windows users. Glad you cleared that up.
Just like nobody gives a crap about XP now…
Edited 2011-09-27 21:39 UTC
Puh-leeze. Photoshop Tablet Edition with Metro UI might appear some day but MS will be announcing Windows 11 by then. API’s come and go, Win32 is here to stay. It was declared ‘legacy’ long ago, yet .Net is just running alongside it and there’s no hint of Win32 possibly disappearing. It took ages to remove DOS compatibility from NT, for goodness’ sake. So don’t hold your breath.
Edited 2011-09-21 18:17 UTC
Read for comprehension. I said that content CONSUMPTION apps are Metro. Content CREATION apps are desktop. Hence, Win32 doesn’t need to go anywhere. Sheez.
OK. Quote:
Somehow this makes me believe you classify Photoshop, Premiere and MS Office as CONSUMPTION, as you put it, apps. Call me suspicious.
.net was built on top of Win32; WinRT is built on top of the Windows kernel
Win32 won’t go away for many years (if ever) but it will eventually become an optional install/won’t be available on consumer versions of Windows/etc.
Microsoft needs a clean break from Win32 because they simply can’t carry it (and the various services it depends on) onto tablets without compromising their performance and battery consumption.
It used to be that Microsoft could build ‘for the future’ because they had no competition but now that Apple and (to a much lesser extent) Google are eating their lunch on Tablets then need to cut loose the dead wood to stay competitive.
Even the tablet they gave out at build – which is sitting on my desk here – is like heavier than an iPad, it’s got 3.5 hours of battery life, and it has a freaking fan! No one would buy that over an iPad.
Win32 will be around for as long as Windows is. Why? Because without Win32 and all the apps that run on it, there would be no reason for Windows to exist anymore. In other words, Win32 practically IS Windows.
If MS decides to turn Windows into a tablet OS and drop Win32, then you can stick a fork in ’em, cuz they’ll be done.
My guess is that even if they try to go that direction, they’ll get about halfway there, and then change course when the ‘next greatest thing’ comes along, and then they’ll just try and imitate that. Because that is exactly what MS is… a follower.
Edited 2011-09-21 04:53 UTC
It doesn’t really matter what Microsoft thinks. What matters is what people actually use. So let’s see how the market reacts to that.
If enough developers stay with Win32 Microsoft can’t ignore it and remove it in the next version, or they’ll doom themselves and Windows 9 will be even bigger failure than Vista was.
So far it doesn’t look good for Metro. It’s nearly useless on the desktop and it restricts us to Windows Store. So, no, thanks.
It’s not about the people that use it. It’s about the developers who build it.
My company does not do Windows development at this time, only web and Apple, but I am planning to invest in additional developers to have some Metro apps at launch because it represents the biggest gold rush since the iOS App Store.
Many others are too, because it’s just such a huge deal to be at the cusp of a new platform that will be deployed to tens of millions of devices annually.
how are they not desktop apps?
They have totally lost their minds
Do MS will release a Windows 8 Developer Edition or developers will need to use somekind of sandbox with Visual Studio to develop Metro apps?
Either way, it do not sound smart… indeed, looks very easy to convince a user to turn this restriction off by itself with some free helper app (or a malicious Trojan, whatever). A PC is not bootlocked cellphone or game console with advanced DRM capabilities build-in in hardware itself (and even then struggles to keep the edge).
With such terrible design choices, it seems like Microsoft is conceding the desktop market entirely in Windows 8.
to whom is it conceding the desktop?
To every other operating system that is a genuine desktop operating system… of which there is only one outside of Windows.
Edited 2011-09-21 06:16 UTC
You remember that “Year of the Linux Desktop” thing we joke about? Haha.
Microsoft is doing this because it’s a huge revenue win for them. They will take 30% of all app purchases and there are thousands of software companies selling software for windows which would add substantially to their bottom line.
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Edited 2011-09-21 00:40 UTC
That isn’t the sole reason. It’s also about providing certain guarantees to users about the quality of the apps that they’re running. If you download your apps from its store, you (in theory) have fewer worries about malware, poorly behaved apps (user reviews), etc.
Sure, but you could still let people install apps from outside the store and simply state that the store is the preferred method and carries the Microsoft seal (or some such thing).
For some reason, I think this is an absolutely asinine word and just irritates me when I see it used everywhere.
FYI, I DO NOT have an iPhone, iPad, nor do I have any intention of upgrading to Lion on my Macs, and I now use Gnome3 80% of the time, so don’t accuse me of being an Apple fan boy / apologist.
What does Lion have to do with anything?
A “walled garden” is something we used to call a “golden cage”. But since a golden cage has right in the name what it is, namely a cage, even the most retarded customer could guess what’s going on. So some marketeer (or fanboy, I can’t distinguish them anymore) decided to use the more deceptive walled garden. At least, that’s my version of the story
BTW, both terms originated in fairy tales, where the imprisoned prince/princess/animal/whatever had all possible comfort but longed for freedom anyway. The nerve…!
Edited 2011-09-21 11:10 UTC
You’re right, “gated community” is probably more accurate.
…and that just killed windows 8 for me. All my excitement for windows 8 just disappeared. On the bright side, this saves me money by me NOT buying a windows 8 tablet, and I now have a nice big spot on a HDD to play with a new linux distro on… maybe even debian gnu/kFreebsd! So many non restrictive possibilites…
Debian kFreeBSD is not a Linux distro. It’s a GNU software stack on a FreeBSD kernel. BSD kernel != Linux kernel.
Might I suggest using real FreeBSD rather than the GNU substandard version.
While there’s nothing substandard about the GNU userland, I have to agree that real FreeBSD, or NetBSD, or DragonFlyBSD, or OpenBSD would be the way to go to experience a “new” OS. Debian GNU/kFreeBSD is just Debian with a different kernel.
… that side-loading applications is possible, right? All that you need is a free downloadable copy of Visual Studio Express.
And exactly what percentage of users (outside this type of forum) will do that?
go on, think of a number?
My take is that Microsoft don’t want the ‘JoeSixpack’ type of user to have a different experience on your tablet/desktop or phone.
IMHO, for the majority of users that is as far as they will go.
I think it is a laudable intention but frankly is doomed to fail. WP7 etc is far too late in the game. They will need to have some compelling USP’s to get people to replace their i* or android devices with a windows one.
Oh wait, they do (at least in the US), the courts.
Frankly to acheive critical volumes they need either apple or google to disappear. That is not going to happen unless they get sued into oblivion. (triple damages anyone?)
This will raise a whole load of Antitrust issues. With the Wordperfect vs Microsoft case going to trial next month (dating from 1994/5) we can see how long that takes to get resolved.
Who cares. The point is that it can be done. Have some cheese with your whine.
Microsoft made it sound like WinRT was the future of Windows, and I’m sure that many small software developers will eagerly anticipate the coming of the Metro app store. Yet it is hard to see how companies like Apple and Adobe will accept this turn of events. Not only is Microsoft asking them for a 30% cut, but they are limited to a single retail channel. In some cases that channel will be controlled by their competitor. (Apple is the notable example here, yet there are many other businesses facing a similar problem.) Oh, and the old API that their existing applications are developed with still exists, so there is not a huge need to make the jump.
Something tells me that WinRT is going to be a very hard sell.
I don’t know, i think that Adobe, Autodesk, etc… will all be restricted to a business only approach, thus marketing their products only for people that got their hands on a kind of “Windows 8 Professional”.
This is not really a big problem for them anyway, since their usual customers lies in business field.
What is making me really curious about is how large game developers (Valve, ID, Square..) will react to this.
I’m not sure if Steam already works like this but you could have the service manager such as Steam’s client app install through the MS repository (er.. store). You then have the Steam client download/delete games like addon’s or plugin bundles.
As soon as I read the article, I couldn’t help but think of the closing of George Orwell’s Animal Farm, one of my favorite books. When the pigs, leaders of the animals, have fully seceded from humans, the pigs eventually end up reverting back to the human tyranny again, so orwell closes: “Twelve voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike. No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
This is how I now see Apple and Microsoft.
There exists a strange tradition of the workers marching past an old skull and calling each other “comrade.” This will be suppressed.
Chilling.
Wow. Really? What are these companies doing to oppress developers (which I guess are the animals in this context)?
You know Metro is going to be like the biggest gold rush in the history of software development. Thousands of of developers, many of them in developing economies, are going to make a great deal of money and improve their living standards.
What do you fear will actually happen?
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A few dozens of developers, in the “top seller”/”featured” part of the Windows Store, will make massive profit, whereas the others will have almost no visibility. Then Microsoft will introduce the “Windows Developer Program”, in which freeware will be made at a loss…
Computers that run Windows 8, and only Windows 8: http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/5552.html
Walled garden app store. Computers that prevent you from downgrading or installing an alternative OS. Does Microsoft want to suck up all the world’s money or something? Because it looks like they’ll be having a good go at it.
Ugh. Well, it won’t be in effect right away because PCs will ship with BIOS emulation during at least a few more years (you turn it on in the BIOS/EFI setup screen), but worth being concerned it is indeed.
It looks like Microsoft might be demanding from OEM’s to use TPM to limit what can be installed on your new PC.
From a Linux website:
“Microsoft requires that machines conforming to the Windows 8 logo program and running a client version of Windows 8 ship with secure boot enabled. The two alternatives here are for Windows to be signed with a Microsoft key and for the public part of that key to be included with all systems, or alternatively for each OEM to include their own key and sign the pre-installed versions of Windows. The second approach would make it impossible to run boxed copies of Windows on Windows logo hardware, and also impossible to install new versions of Windows unless your OEM provided a new signed copy. The former seems more likely.
A system that ships with only OEM and Microsoft keys will not boot a generic copy of Linux.”
http://lwn.net/Articles/459569/
If this is sold as a Windows copy protection measurement for Microsoft, couldn’t you just make windows install media and the installed OS query the system for signatures without having to lock out other OSes…?
It is a slippery slope, they might eventually lock it down completely.
Then the Windows PC is locked down with TPM like an X-Box (which is also a Windows computer).
This wouldn’t ultimately be in intel’s interest considering they just want to sell processors and chipsets. Artificially limiting customers wouldn’t be in their interest. Unless they thing thy can upcharge for more freedom.
Probably not, but it is Microsoft who made a requirement of this not Intel.
So most PCs with Windows pre-installed you can buy in the shop or from HP, Dell might be locked in the future.
I don’t think it will happen, but it is a slippery slope if they all need to have support for it.
To enable usage of non-Secure Boot OSes, Secure Boot may be disabled in the firmware just as the TPM can, and TPM is not required for Secure Boot.
It’s not a license enforcement mechanism.
It’s used to ensure the boot path is not compromised and protect against malware.
Sanity has been restored. *golf clap*
Now if only we could get the conspiracy theorists to live in the real world…
Even in the most optimistic situation where “secure boot” (come on, give me a break, we’re talking about booting Windows there) can be disabled, this has the interesting side-effect of making dual boots impractical.
Edited 2011-09-21 19:24 UTC
It’s starting to look like Windows 8 = WebOS.
If Microsoft forces us into a phone operating system paradigm, how could they win? I can think of several ways they could lose, most of which they’re hell bent on persuing.
At this rate us old windows guys will be running ReactOS or linux + wine in the future until we fully switch to linux/android. Or something else.
Microsoft was rotten. Now it rots even further.
Complete with protection racket:
http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Microsoft-s-Linux-patent-lic…
Yes, and knowing that their “patents” are a pile of garbage, they also push NDA for their victims.
Be it Apple or MS I don’t like this whole move to AppStores and then push tablets/iPad letting them limit what the devices can do. No WAY!
Apple’s iTunes with constantly changing rules, app store that even only lets you install a FREE app once. Plus the Apple crap most don’t notice like how they have their fingerprint in their hardware and get funky when you don’t use Apple monitors, batteries, mouse and etc. Now MS heading down the same path.
Steve Jobs introduced the Mac with a 1984 advertisement, little did people know he was showing his long term plan.
Funny how a NEC monitor, Ancient Dell Keyboard, BenQ HD Projector and Microsoft mouse all work fine on my Apple kit.
I don’t have to faff around loading drivers either unlike Windows.
I’m not saying apple is perfect, far from it but I’d really like to know where you got the opinion that non apple devices won’t work on Apple kit?
“Funny how a NEC monitor, Ancient Dell Keyboard, BenQ HD Projector and Microsoft mouse all work fine on my Apple kit.
I don’t have to faff around loading drivers either unlike Windows.”
You wouldn’t have to load drivers for those in Windows either.
Well, my copy of Windows and the searching for drivers it does when I connect the keyboard would seem to disagree with you. YMMV.
I call bullshit.
Your keyboard is either USB or PS/2 so it will be plug and play anyway.
I have a Bloomberg keyboard in front of me and that worked just fine … and that is probably much more exotic than anything you own.
Edited 2011-09-21 21:09 UTC
0.o :p
http://xahlee.org/funny/i/mac_win_linux_perceptions-s.jpg
The keyboard in the middle to the right is a bloomberg.
My first comment in this story, so I don’t know if anybody has already said something similar.
Windows has *tons* of free software, free as in beer or free as in freedom, or both. That is of course a huge added bonus for MS users, you can run Windows and never have to pay for a program, quite legally.
My experience with OS X, it doesn’t have so many (quality) free programs. You are expected to pay even for some little apps which should be part of the OS (example: AppZapper).
So, isn’t Microsoft shooting itself in the foot with this policy? They can call themselves lucky only because not too many people are willing to move to Linux (various reasons) or even to OS X (price of hardware).
But even so, Windows 8 can be a huge fiasco, just like Vista. Joe User is not willing to pay for every app. Thus they shouldn’t push their luck too hard.
1) The Mac App Store has several thousand free apps.
2) The Microsoft Metro App Store (or whatever) will have thousands of free apps.
It’s possible Microsoft will restrict GPL apps though but there aren’t likely to be many GPL apps for Metro so whatever.
(I happen to be in the software development business and so I am not really into free – unless it’s part of my business model – and frankly applaud Apple and Microsoft for creating an ecosystem that supports low cost apps.)
You do it for a living and, to a point, I can understand your point of view.
I don’t want to start the age old free vs. paid argument all over again, only a simple consideration: if Joe User had to pay for every app he needs, that would cost him more than his computer + OS.
Many would simply give up or resort to piracy.