Amiga Inc has revealed more details on the new Amiga Operating System: “Amiga is pleased to publish this first version of the feature set of the up and coming AmigaOS4.0. The document will undergo revision in subsequent issues but because of the massive demand for information made by the public, we have decided to release it in its current state.” The official launch of the PPC based AmigaOne platform together with AmigaOS4.0 is sheduled for March at the upcoming CeBit tradeshow in Germany.
It’s a very impressive paper, I hope AmigaOS 4.0 will bring us light in the future :O)
At last
I have been “watching” the slow and painfull rebirth of Amiga for some time now (could it be > 2 years???) and it’s good to see some solid news on the OS.
I imagine it is difficult to publish a feature set unless the OS is nearly completed so I hope this is a sign of “pending release”.
In any case, I can’t wait untill it runs on my AmigaOne.
Regards
Darren
And if not, can they all be recompiled to run on the new OS?
How similar are the APIs of the original Amiga (circa 1985) and the new AmigaIOne/OS4?
Can new Amiga OS’s play all of those old games ?
AmigaOne motherboards in combination with SuSE/PPCLinux are currently being sold by various Amiga dealers:
http://www.eyetech.co.uk/amigaone/dealers.php
AmigaOne boards were already being sold at the Aachen Amiga fair in December 2002, Germany. A small video coverage of the show:
http://www.amigapage.de/messe2002.html
The amount of Amiga Messe visitors was much lower than previous years, with just around 700 visitors. Amiga and its partners did not attend this event and announced the official release of AmigaOS4/AmigaOne for the upcoming CeBit fair.
However an alternative platform including a rival OS called MorphOS, was released at this Amiga show. MorphOS currently hosts an ABOX environment on top of a Quark microkernel. This ABOX environment includes a re-implemented (Amiga) Exec kernel. The ABOX is almost identically structured as AmigaOS3.1 and also includes some 68k and PPC Amiga software compatibility.
For some interesting MorphOS demonstration videos look here:
http://www.pegasos-uk.com/english/news_event_03-6.html
[Quote]Can new Amiga OS’s play all of those old games ?
[/Quote]
If you want to play most of the old games, then use UAE – many of the “old” games didn’t even run on AmigaOS 3.x
But I like this:
“… Address space emulation: The system can emulate alien address spaces, for example
emulate an AGA chipset on a machine that doesn`t have AGA. …”
This would be a great thing that many would like to see (some programs still need AGA)
Hello Mike,
No offense but the community specially the MorphOS one know that you are a favorite AmigaINC advocate. We have no problems with that fact but please stay at the truth.
> However an alternative platform including a rival OS
> called MorphOS, was released at this Amiga show.
MorphOS currently is the ONLY native PPC OS available on PPC like Systems in the means of the Amiga Spirit. There are still NO signs of AmigaOS 4.x only a feature list with the version 1.0 and the marks that it is not the final version.
> This ABOX environment includes a re-implemented
> (Amiga) Exec kernel.
Yeah but as mentioned from their developers this Exec is written from scratch and not as you ever and ever trying to make people belive based on stolen Kick3.1 code. Regardless to say that the entire Kick3.1 exec is written in Mc680x0 Assembly language and therefore useless and you know that MorphOS is entirely written in C.
There is nothing negative about MorphOS in the post Mike made!!!
And think about it … he did mention MorphOS as an alternative OS!!! On a thread about AmigaOS … so read the text next time!!!
@ OBOS4ALL
Does OS4 provide native binary compatibility with all the legacy applications?
Out of the box, many existing PPC Amiga software should function without problems. 68k software will utilize the integrated 68k emulator.
How similar are the APIs of the original Amiga (circa 1985) and the new AmigaIOne/OS4?
Quite alot has changed since 1985.
Both for classic Amigas and NG Amigas, AmigaOS4 should be seen as a port of AmigaOS 3.9 to PPC with many additional enhancements.
@ OBOS4ALL/Darius
Software needing access to OCS/ECS/AGA custom chips will need an UAE-like emulator to be run. In the future it may be possible that a PCI based hardware solution becomes available, but there is currently no clear commitment for such plans.
Yes but MB’s sentences usually tend to have hidden sidecomments and I discovered one.
@ oGALAXYo
Yes but MB’s sentences usually tend to have hidden sidecomments and I discovered one.
LOL, I don’t understand why some people, including you, continuously seem to misread things which weren’t stated at all.
No offense but the community specially the MorphOS one know that you are a favorite AmigaINC advocate.
There’s no need to enlight people here, it’s pretty well known by most OSNews regulars that I am a vivid AmigaOS/AmigaDE supporter.
Some people don’t seem to be able to handle the fact that I haven’t joined their crusade against Amiga Inc. Their problem…
MorphOS currently is the ONLY native PPC OS available on PPC like Systems in the means of the Amiga Spirit.
1) I didn’t state AmigaOS4 was already available. Just read this news item for example.
2) “means of the Amiga Spirit” is a very subjective statement, thus your personal opinion.
3) There are more PPC native OSes which are being viewed by members of OS communities as capturing much of the “Amiga spirit”. (i.e. BeOS and QNX communities)
Yeah but as mentioned from their developers this Exec is written from scratch and not as you ever and ever trying to make people belive based on stolen Kick3.1 code.
I am just using similar wording as the MorphOS team. *I* did not state that they have stolen anything.
It’s a shame AOS4 won’t have a Java-enabled browser. But, that’s part of picking up anew after so long.
@oGALAXYo
Yes but MB’s sentences usually tend to have hidden sidecomments and I discovered one.
What statement was that?!? There was absolutely nothing sinister in what Mike wrote. If anything he embraced the MOS position by calling it “re-implemented”. That suggests to me he’s aware of his prejudices and overcompensating for them.
>Planned and already partially implemented functionality:
>
>° Multithreading: Tasks can consist of multiple threads of >execution which are scheduled
>individually on a higher frequency.
So the current versions does not allow multithreading? – or just not at different frequencies than the host process/task?
Warning: I haven’t read the feature list yet. I am commenting from what was announced and discussed before, so take this with a grain of salt. (Mike, holler if I say something wrong.)
@ OBOS4ALL:
> Does OS4 provide native binary compatibility with all
> the legacy applications?
Yes. Binary compatibility was a design goal.
@ Darius:
> Can new Amiga OS’s play all of those old games ?
Many of the old games relied on the special Amiga Custom Chips (OCS / ECS / AGA). In a system where those are no longer available, it is hard (as in, “UAE”) to get all their interdependancies and timings emulated right.
AFAIK, there are no provisions for a custom chip emulation in OS 4 (but the feature list should answer that for sure). However, IIRC the AmigaOne was designed to have an A1200 motherboard attached so that custom chip calls can be routed to the original AGA hardware.
Last time I looked attaching such a board was a requirement; I don’t really know if it still is since Hyperion (the contractor for AOS 4) claimed they made quite some progress in removing timing dependancies from the OS code. Mike? Is the A1200 board still required by the OS, or just a cludge to get old CC dependant software running?
> So the current versions does not allow multithreading? –
> or just not at different frequencies than the host
> process/task?
The current AOS 3.9 simply does not have the concept of process vs. thread – all control flows (“tasks”) including the OS were running in a single address space. (One of the reasons for both the greatest advantage of AOS – speed and efficiency – and the greatest disadvantage – lack of memory protection.)
Since AOS 4 will introduce virtual (MMU’ed) memory, and thus, processes, only now the need for “multithreading” arises at all.
Please note that by “binary compatibility was a design goal”, I meant that AOS 4 was designed to be able to run OS 3.x binaries. AOS 4 binaries will *not* run on OS 3.x machines.
Remember the time when the AMIGA held the entire Multimedia Market. Their marketing guys had no idea what they had. Commodore screwed up so bad, they deserve to be out of buisness!!! It could multitask and do multimedia when MACs and PCs still had a hard time with color! Too bad the Video Toaster is no longer made for that platform. All of the great software has been ported to WINDOWS :/
With people being so closed minded these days, it will be hard for the OS to make a comback. MACs are the last of the commercial desktop OS’s. I hope it fairs better than BE, OS2, MAC or anything else out their that makes an attempt to make something special or inovative. I applaud the few developers that are keeping it going. If companies like MICRO$OFT did not make data propritary, then we could each run the OS we prefered!!!
However, IIRC the AmigaOne was designed to have an A1200 motherboard attached so that custom chip calls can be routed to the original AGA hardware.
Last time I looked attaching such a board was a requirement; I don’t really know if it still is since Hyperion (the contractor for AOS 4) claimed they made quite some progress in removing timing dependancies from the OS code. Mike?
Originally this would have been required for AmigaOS4.0 only. With following OS releases such an attachment wouldn’t have been required.
This was the original plan presented by Amiga, Haag&Partner, Escena and Hyperion in 2001.
http://www.stormloader.com/amiga/BAS/
However much has changed since then, Haage&Partner, which would have taken care of the emulation among other key OS aspects, cancelled their plans. Also Escena, an important hardware partner, ran into problems.
Eventually Hyperion singed a deal with Amiga Inc to take over the management of the AmigaOS4 project. They devoted several fulltime coders to the project and signed deals with several dozens of external OS developers to complete the project. The currently developed AmigaOS4.0 is alot more advanced as the original AmigaOS4.0 was planned to be initially. And also access to the original Amiga custom chipsets isn’t needed anymore.
On the hardware side, Mai also joined forces with the Amiga team. Hyperion was hired by Mai to produce their new BootROM and port LinuxPPC to Mai’s boards. This now allows Mai and partners including Terra Soft to sell consumer targeted PPC motherboards.
Eyetech’s new AmigaOne boards are almost identical to these new Mai boards and run all the same software, except for AmigaOS4, which will only run on licensed AmigaOne motherboards. AmigaOne boards are slightly more expensive than non-licensed boards, and so this policy was taken to make sure that people who buy unlicensed boards simply pirate AmigaOS4.
@ Jack Perry
It’s a shame AOS4 won’t have a Java-enabled browser. But, that’s part of picking up anew after so long.
The plan is to integrate the AmigaDE (currently with pJava and J2ME support) tranparently into future AmigaOS4.x releases.
The AmigaDE is a platform independent layer/OS based on Tao’s intent platform: http://tao-group.com
The AmigaDE/intent platform and derived technologies have extremely small memory footprints and is in terms of performance unparalled by other platform independent technologies. Developers can write their platform independent software using a variety of programming languages, including C, C++ and Java.
Tao’s JVM for the intent platform is highly regarded within the embedded industry for its performance and memory footprint. Behind the scenes many intent based hardware solutions and software is being developed by Open Content Platform Association (OCPA) members: http://www.ocpa.jp/
The OCPA includes hardware companies like Sony, NEC, JVC, Sharp, Motorola, etc for producing new hardware solutions like PDAs, web tablets, digital cameras, digital TVs and smart phones.
What a shame…
Mike Bouma,
“Eyetech’s new AmigaOne boards are almost identical to these new Mai boards and run all the same software, except for AmigaOS4, which will only run on licensed AmigaOne motherboards. AmigaOne boards are slightly more expensive than non-licensed boards, and so this policy was taken to make sure that people who buy unlicensed boards simply pirate AmigaOS4.”
Why, oh why, does Amiga wish to kill themselves prior to being reincarnated. Tying the OS to a specific Motherboard is absolutely absurd. Firstly, it is a first step in the direction of the DRM protection scheme-closed systems, not only closed source, but closed hardware. Secondly such an approach guarantees that there simply will not be enough developers to write enough applications for this platform to make it an interesting alternative- without an Amigaone motherboard no one can write software for AmigaOS4-but not due to qa fundamentally different architecture(as in the case with macs and pcs) but due to planned, built-in incompatibilities. Hell even IBM wasn’t stupid enough to do this- and they could have, Amiga has zero presence in the world and wishes to come into the boxing ring a-fighting with the most scrupolous sort of anti-competitive , anti-open techniques. Narrow-minded, short-sighted greedy IP apostles. IF this is Amiga, there is no sense in speaking of the “amiga spirit” other than being cynical-ironic.
Perhaps I am too quick to jump the gun. But if this is what Amiga will become -they couldn’t pay me enough to want to have their machine.
“Does OS4 provide native binary compatibility with all the legacy applications?
Out of the box, many existing PPC Amiga software should function without problems. 68k software will utilize
the integrated 68k emulator. ”
Basically, programs that will display on a graphics card on an Amiga
will run OK under emulation in AOS 4. That means just about all
applications programmed in the past 6 or 7 years.
Programs that will only display correctly with the actual Amiga
graphics chips will need some kind of emulation of those chips, which
at present means running UAE. There is a handful of valuable
applications falling into this category.
That will also apply to almost all games.
One of the most interesting points made in the document is that
virtualizing the memory will allow hooks for hardware emulation to be
built in to the kernel. That makes possible in future a transparent
emulation of the old hardware, so that most old games would “just
run”.
But that is a year or so away, I guess.
“Tao’s JVM for the intent platform is highly regarded within the embedded industry for its performance and
memory footprint. ”
However, this is a version of Java for embedded applications. What is
needed is a full version of Java, such as Alan Havemose is preparing
for MorphOS.
OTOH very few web pages are now using applets, so for most users who
are not programmers, Java is less urgent now than Flash, IMO.
Why, oh why, does Amiga wish to kill themselves prior to being reincarnated.
Their main concern is that AmigaOS4 royalties are being paid, this in order for AmigaOS4 developers to earn back their development costs. Mass piracy would kill any software company.
Tying the OS to a specific Motherboard is absolutely absurd.
They aren’t doing that, AmigaOS4 was designed to be easily portable to any PPC hardware platform. Non AmigaOS4 licensed Mai hardware can also be upgraded with a different ROM, which will then enable consumers to run AmigaOS4 as well. Of course this approach will be more expensive than buying licensed hardware in the first place.
Perhaps I am too quick to jump the gun.
I think so too. The Amiga companies have to deal with extremely harsh conditions including, well established OS/hardware monopolies, global economic slowdown and lack of money for marketing compared to some market Gorillas.
They simply do what they think will allow them to survive. Of course there are always different views and opinions, but eventually the companies making the effort and taking all the risks, need to take whatever step (including unpopular decisions) necessary to survive.
However, this is a version of Java for embedded applications.
J2ME and pJava are currently supported by the AmigaDE, but that doesn’t mean other versions cannot be supported in the future as well.
Transparent AmigaDE integration will allow many oppertunities. For instance some AmigaDE users currently use Espial’s java based, (embedded targeted) Escape browser as their main desktop browser. (HTML4, CSS, JavaScript, RealNetworks G2 media player, Flash, Quicktime, etc)
http://www.espial.com/assets/getasset.php?aid=98
>>Planned and already partially implemented functionality:
>>
>>° Multithreading: Tasks can consist of multiple threads of
>>execution which are scheduled
>>individually on a higher frequency.
>So the current versions does not allow multithreading? –
>or just not at different frequencies than the host
>process/task?
Amiga never had the concept of ‘threads’ as such, nor did it need them. Threads are only necessary in a fully memory protected environment. Even this OS4 isn’t such an environment, though it looks like it can go most of the way, and probably will down the line, hence it will become necessary to intruduce threads.
An Amiga ‘process’ is simply a ‘task’ with support for high level (AmigaDOS) I/O. There was nothing to stop a program creating multiple tasks (or even processes), even running multiple tasks on the same code (device drivers commonly did this to support different units, only the data is duplicated, not the code).
Okay, I am someone who is sick of PCs, and may like to move on sometime. I don’t like MacOS; I don’t want that. Linux as a desktop OS, I frankly think is aweful. I’m the kind of person they should be aiming this at, as they’ll never survive selling these sololy at the existing Amiga userbase in the long-term.
Now they flood us with truly horrendous screenshots, confusing buzzwords like “AmigaDE”, “AmigaONE”, wonkly direction, exclusive motherboards (?), and apparently more of the same _very_ spotty software compatibilty. Are they trying to scare people away from buying this? Because at the moment, even an Acorn RiscPC looks more attractive.
Now they flood us with truly horrendous screenshots
There will be some new screenshots soon. The previous ones were intended to show standard customizability options and were well received within the Amiga community.
It makes sense not to release art too early, before your product launch. Rivals can easily copy or “inspire” themselves on such art.
confusing buzzwords like “AmigaDE”, “AmigaONE”
The AmigaDE stands for Amiga Digital Environment, a platform independent technology not only intended for AmigaOS, but for other OSes as well. (Compare this to Microsoft’s .Net product, which exists next to Windows) The AmigaDE is a seperate product, AmigaDE derived technologies are currently mainly targeted at embedded devices (branded “Amiga Anywhere”).
The AmigaOne, is a name for all Amiga licensed and AmigaOS4 supported motherboards. The Amiga partners are investigating alternative names, which may better differentiate between different products.
Are they trying to scare people away from buying this?
They are doing the best they can, I should note that Amiga and some of its partners have mainly been development companies these last couple of years. Alot of things will change while they enter the product release phase.
IMO some keywords for people to buy AmigaOS instead of other desktop OSes are: Efficiency, low-bloat, customizability, modularity, flexibility, responsiveness and transparency.
There are many problems a new desktop OS will have to face. Most importantly the chicken and the egg situation with regard to software. The pretty rabid Amiga developer community can give the platform a pretty good kickstart. For the near future I consider the Amiga platform to be the most viable desktop platform, after PowerMacs and Windows PCs.
The Amiga with 4.0 is not going to be ready for you yet. Give it a
year or two to settle.
This version is really for existing Amiga users who already have
software for it. It should be atttractive to developers as an
interesting platform to program on (if they don’t expect to get rich).
The AmigaDE that Mike keeps banging on about is a completely different
product and has no relevance whatever to AmigaOS 4.0.
AmigaOS 4.0 is a major upgrade with a move to new hardware (CPU,
graphics, sound – everything). I suggest leaving it to current and
former Amiga users for a while. Come back around version 4.2.
If OTOH you are the kind of person who likes trying out different
OSes, and has plenty of money to spend, then give it a go (when it’s
out). Amigas are nice computers to use, full of clever design
features.
@ Don Cox
Give it a year or two to settle.
<snip>
Come back around version 4.2.
Are you suggesting it will take two years to get to AmigaOS 4.2? I hope not.
Seriously, 2 years from now we will likely have AmigaOS5.x
The AmigaDE that Mike keeps banging on about is a completely different product and has no relevance whatever to AmigaOS 4.0.
IMO the AmigaDE is a far more promising product. AmigaOS4 is mainly a major evolutionary advancement of an excellent classic dektop Operating System. The AmigaDE/intent however takes a revolutionary approach, which could potentially change the entire tech market.
For font smoothing (anti-aliasing), how does this compare with the likes of ClearType, Quartz, FontFusion, FreeType etc?
Besides, it is 2.5 months away from CeBIT, is there at least a description on how the new look would be? Or would it be the ugly self it has been in every OS4 screenshot.
@ Karl:
Why, oh why…
That is what I have been preaching ever since April 1st 2001 (when they announced their plans for a PPC only AmigaOS 4), and what eventually made be leave the Amiga for good.
@ Mike:
Mass piracy would kill any software company.
Well, but if your software is an operating system you absolutely depend on the OS spreading, piracy or no…
AmigaOS4 was designed to be easily portable to any PPC hardware platform. Non AmigaOS4 licensed Mai hardware can also be upgraded with a different ROM, which will then enable consumers to run AmigaOS4 as well. Of course this approach will be more expensive than buying licensed hardware in the first place.
Well, even the lock-in on PPC hardware was absolutely unnecessary, as Hyperion themselves admitted: They first made the OS pure 68k, with the hardware dependancies taken out (sorry, I forgot that part in my first post or I wouldn’t have asked). THEN they ported it to PPC…
Note for the non-Amigans: Since 1997, a company named phase 5 had provided the market with PPC accelerator cards that basically used the PPC as an auxiliary coprocessor. With only very few exceptions, most software still ships as 68k software with *OPTIONAL* PPC plugins.
One, Hyperion claims that the lock-in into the dongled-PPC hardware niche will save the Amiga market from being overpowered by the Windows / Mac competition because being locked-in hardware-wise creates a stronger bonding to the platform.
Two, Hyperion claims that using other hardware (like, a selected stock x86 motherboard instead of the MAI stuff…) was not possible because of the existing software base…
It is IMHO, as always, but I am sorry to say that this simply reeks as rotten as Commodore International management decisions. Tramiel, infamous as he was, has been understanding the market, and switched early to ride the wave. Too bad he left CBM before they aquired Amiga, and too bad that his ploy to make the bid for the then-struggling, not-yet-to-market Amiga Inc. failed. I’d daresay Amiga would have fared better.
I particulalry like the lazycompile command. Perfect for all of us lazy people.
@ Mike:
> Are you suggesting it will take two years to get to
> AmigaOS 4.2? I hope not.
Seriously, 2 years from
> now we will likely have AmigaOS5.x
Come on, get real. Two years from the “going PowerPC” decision, a pure PPC Amiga was scheduled to have hit the market; in fact the first PPC accelerator boards just hit the market.
Two years from the release of the PPC accelerators, the Aox was promised to bring unparalleled custom hardware to the market. In fact phase 5 went bust.
Two years from the takeover of Amiga IP by (back then) Amino Inc., the re-vo-lu-tio-nary fully hardware agnostic new Amiverse experience was scheduled to be available. In fact, all we had were announcements.
Again, get real. New AmigaOS was announced to be the hardware independant (i.e., running on PPC, x86, MIPS, Sparc…). Then it was announced that AmigaOS 4 would be a PPC-only step into the direction of a hardware independant AmigaOS 5. Then Hyperion (more specifically, Ben Hermans IIRC) said that “AmigaOS 5.x will not run on x86, not if we have our say” (it’s somewhere on ANN if you want to look up the quote).
AmigaOS 5.x in two years? Only if they keep downscaling the scope of 5.x at the rate they have been ever since January 2000.
Get me right, I was Amiga advocate, I was Amiga enthusiast, I was Amiga evangelist. I still think that AmigaOS has several things in it that would grace every modern OS. But every time a new prophet stepped up (EsCom, VisCORP, Gateway, Amino) it became worse and worse.
I don’t exactly blame Amiga Inc., either. I do not doubt they stepped up with the best of intentions. But they didn’t fare much better than Irving Gould, Petro Tyschtschenko or Jeff Schindler. In the end, their ambitious plans turned out to be much smaller than their visions…
Ok… As a former Amiga user I’ve followed the various incarnations of Amiga with an interest in possibly adding a new Amiga to my growing network of systems, but I have to agree that this is getting a little confusing -Which is understandable. I mean… How much information can you deluge your potential customers with, without having any sort of product to sell?
After awhile, all the press releases and spec sheets start to blur (Yes, I know this is the 1st “official” spec sheet about the new OS4, but they’ve been dumping tidbits on us for years now it seems).
So here’s my attempt at understanding things -And this is not due to Mike and his well informed updates. Mike has been basically summing up all of these disparate pieces of information for us, and I feel he’s doing a great job. His interest in the platform shows, and I think he deserves more credit than some of you give him (It’s not like he’s cursing you out or insulting your opinions as a well known sysop on this site tends to do when people disgree with her; He’s actually responding to your questions with real answers)
Here goes…
OS4 and AmigaDE are obviously two different beasts. OS4, as indicated, is more of a step forward for those current Amiga users who want to upgrade to some modern hardware. It appears that OS4 offers existing users much in the way of new features, but does not offer many of the things that would sway those of us not using Amigas to pay for new hardware so that we can check out the new OS.
In particular, it appears that OS4 lacks some high level features that are pretty commonplace today (Java integration, Memory protection, etc.). While these are planned features, the current delays in releasing OS4 (Anyone remember the Xmas 2002 promises?), coupled with years of promises and delays from various Amiga companies, make this seem more a hope right now than a guarentee.
On the other hand, it appears that AmigaDE does offer much more in the way of these modern, cool features, but it’s not being marketed as a desktop OS (Although previously in this thread, someone alluded to AmigaDE users using a java enabled browser, so I’m guessing that someone’s using this software as a desktop OS!).
This is most baffling to me… We’ve heard for more than a year now about the benefits of AmigaDE, and how they’ve partnered with Microsoft, and how AmigaDE finally delivers what Java for so long promised: “Write once, and implement equally across many platforms”.
But now that OS4’s supposebly on the horizon, AmigaDE has all but disappeared from the Amiga vocabulary. What exactly is it, and how is it actually benefitting anyone, let alone the Amiga community? It almost appears to be similar to QNX from the releases I’ve read (real time, small footprint, develop for other/embedded machines, etc.), but this obviously isn’t the target audience they’re aiming for.
If it’s able to be used as a desktop OS than why isn’t it being marketed that way? what hardware would we need? For that matter, has anything been done with it other than the initial release of 3 or 4 games for AmigaDE enabled handhelds?
As for hardware… I believe it was Mike who indicated that non Hyperion boards will need a ROM upgrade to run OS4. But I’ve never heard mention of this with regards to any of the Pegasos boards, so is this a “in theory” type of thing, or is it a planned upgrade for Pegasos boards?
Finally, has anyone reading this board actually used the new Amiga boards, the new Pegasos boards, and/or the new OS4 and AmigaDE?
I hear a lot of talk about them, but no one’s ever stepped up and said “I use this all the time and love it because blah blah blah”. Can anyone give any 1st hand experiences on any of this that might persuade poor developers like myself to part with some of our hard earned cash?
While the specs continue to look promising, the lack of “hands on” accounts, the admittedly dated hardware (600Mhz??), and the high prices associated with these due to their niche markets, all combine to make this an “iffy” purchase at best.
Frankly, I was going to spend some cash on the Pegasos board when I 1st heard of it. I figured it might be a nice machine for most of my desktop work, and I’d keep my x86 crunchers to handle video and audio editing.
However between Amigas delays, their lack of hardware compatability, and the prices associated with these new systems, I’m seriously thinking about just throwing the money at a dual CPU x86 setup (Running Yoper! Mmm…).
Is anyone else as confused as me? Has anyone else pondered these same questions, and if so, what are your plans? Let’s hear from you!
@ Solar
when they announced their plans for a PPC only AmigaOS 4
The plan is to go multi-platform beyond OS5 (however this is planned to be a 64-bit OS, thus requires 64-bit CPUs), currently this is not yet possible. IMO good cross-platform binary compatible technologies are needed to make this a desirable direction (AmigaDE).
Hyperion claims………because being locked-in hardware-wise creates a stronger bonding to the platform.
Really? This is the first time I have heard such claims. Maybe you have misread something?
The main reason for Hyperion deciding to go PPC instead of x86, is availability of PPC Amiga hardware and software. However they also think PPC CPUs are better designed:
Hans-Joerg: “The problem with x86 is it’s 16 bit background. Even the most powerful Pentium 4 is in fact just an overly complex 8086. Instead of making a break at one point, x86 kept adding what they call “architecture” to the basic design. This results in an extremely poor processor, and only the fact that they’ve blown up the clock rate means that they are that fast.
This whole nonsense peaked in stuff like the so called “Hyper-Pipeline” of the P4: 20 stages, two of them are just needed to delay execution so that the signal reaches every part of the chip. The G4 has a seven stage pipeline…”
Thomas Frieden: “In the end, *architecture* will win against *brute force*.”
AmigaOS 5.x in two years?
Yes I believe so. IMO alot has been accomplished these last couple of years behind the scenes, both with regard to the AmigaDE and AmigaOS4. Initially the plan was to use the AmigaDE as a desktop OS as well, but too much would have needed to be done to make the OS suitable/desirable as a sole desktop OS, without much additional benefit compared to a hosted solution.
The AmigaDE is very different from classic AmigaOS (fundamental design and structure) and thus not at all Amiga compatible (other than provided by a port of UAE). And also many users wanted AmigaOS to be ported to PPC. In addition various Amiga companies also thought AmigaOS still offers many unique and desirable features, so the original plans gradually changed.
Many basic ideas have stayed the same, like i.e. content should be able to run on any platform regardless of OS or CPU type, or with regard to Amiga home server platforms, etc.
This is great.
Has anyone been to http://www.extremeamiga.com/ yet they have some really nice looking systems available.
The AMIGA needs alot of new games as well as professional applications. Port Counter-Strike and popular games like that to the Amiga. Amiga Inc. should buy the rights for new games so they are release first on the Amiga and then on the rest of the platforms. They should also pay the cost for porting programs like Photoshop, Word….popular Windows programs that have a name. It dosen´t matter if Amiga programs like Pagestream are better than any Windows DTP program. If people see…Photoshop for Amiga they might buy themself a Amiga instead of a PC or Mac. Amiga Inc. should also do as MS do with their XBOX…..sell their systems cheap. This would need alot of money….but if Amiga is going to survive it is necessary to do like this. Anyway…that is what I think. If the Amiga gets a large user-base again it will survive. Amiga OS4 looks very good but it is only as good as the programs you can run on it.
> This is the first time I have heard such claims.
> Maybe you have misread something?
Certainly not. That argument between me and the Hyperion guys has been resurfacing at ann.lu every week or so unless I became fed up with it. However I just realized how crappy the search function for ann.lu is so I can’t give you an URL to prove it, and I don’t feel like sifting through the ANN archives. Just look for any thread with 100+ threads, my nick, and “OS 5” somewhere in the full text…
“Are you suggesting it will take two years to get to AmigaOS 4.2? I hope not.
Seriously, 2 years from now
we will likely have AmigaOS5.x ”
I would take a bet that it will be two years or more.
IMO AmigaOS 5 is just a fantasy, at least as described on the Amiga
Inc web site.
“The AmigaDE that Mike keeps banging on about is a completely
different product and has no relevance whatever to AmigaOS 4.0.
Mike: IMO the AmigaDE is a far more promising product. AmigaOS4 is
mainly a major evolutionary advancement of an excellent classic dektop
Operating System. The AmigaDE/intent however takes a revolutionary
approach, which could potentially change the entire tech market.”
You may find it more promising. I think the VP is a good idea, but
Tao’s “operating system” is pretty underwhelming. The “Party Pack”
demo, for instance, was far below what you would get when playing
games on an A500 15 years ago.
However, we have no comparable feature list for any enhanced version
of Elate/Intent that Amiga may be planning. Various ideas were
mentioned 3 years ago, but have not appeared. Maybe there is something
wonderful in store. I doubt it.
AmigaOS OTOH is a well established and very useful OS which I can
actually use to get work done. It has plenty of potential for future
development, especially with the improvements that Hyperion are
adding.
@ Mike:
I believe that the Frieden brothers are extremely good software engineers, perhaps among the best, but IMO they display a lack of knowledge about CPUs.. The two comments from Thomas and Hans-Jöerg that you quoted are perfect examples of that.
I just hope the DE takes off, so that Amiga will have the resources to fund a port of AmigaOS to x86.
> “Are you suggesting it will take two years to get to
> AmigaOS 4.2? I hope not.
Seriously, 2 years from now
> we will likely have AmigaOS5.x ”
> I would take a bet that it will be two years or more.
And my guess since the very beginning of AmigaInc. 2000
was that they may not make any remarkable impact before
2003-2005. This would include the completion of the AmigaDE
(as proposed at that time within the AmigaWorld issues,
which would include a desktop capable environment, not to
say OS 😉 and getting some serious support from the
industry (read: for creating content, distributing,
including the technology (AmigaDE/AmigaAnywhere) into end
user products etc.)
So I’ll take a somewhat middle ground between you and Mike
and say 2005’s the year I expect OS 5 (what a nice match,
20 yrs AmigaOS then at version 5 in 2-0-0-5!! ;-), somewhere
between January (= 2 yrs) and December (= two years or
more). OS 4.2 maybe at the end of this year.
I always thought of it as a long time vision. Sure, I would
have been overwhelmed if that would have been right there
at the end of the first year (2000), but… (talking ’bout
realism).
Taking into account that OS5 will not be build upon OS4 (but
may integrate the(most?) API’s and some AmigaOS design on
top of AmigaDE on top of a HAL, however), work on OS5 could
just now be more advanced than we think. In fact, some
technologies have already been exchanged between AmigaInc.
and Hyperion, so AmigaDE and OS.
Datatypes, Ami2d and Warp3D (later Nova?) are some examples
that have been mentioned already.
> IMO AmigaOS 5 is just a fantasy, at least as described on > the AmigaInc web site.
There’s a difference between fantasy and vision, you know?
Fantasy is just that, ‘fantastic’. Visions are real targets
that you _try_ to reach. From all I know, AmigaInc. are yet
on the way to their vision. If (and when) they will be
reaching it at any time is written in another book.
IMHO AmigaOS 5 is simply the desktop OS that AmigaInc.
alway wanted to make out of the AmigaDE and as such is a
vital component in their (home server etc) ‘vision’, which
I don’t see they have abandoned yet.
> However, we have no comparable feature list for any
> enhanced version of Elate/Intent that Amiga may be
> planning.
Try the April 2001 Technical Update, OS 5 section, for a
hint. At least that’s what I make of it. (No, its not
comparable to this OS 4 feature list, but OS 5 isn’t nearly
as finished also, is it?
> Various ideas were mentioned 3 years ago, but
> have not appeared. Maybe there is something wonderful in
> store. I doubt it.
I will not even try to take/talk away your skepticism.
To some degree there have to be people questioning what’s
being done, for the best balance of things. Maybe the
difference is just the level at which we measure AmigaInc.’s
doings (what and if they are -yet- doing what they
proposed).
> AmigaOS OTOH is a well established and very useful OS
> which I can actually use to get work done.
.. and this is a perfectly valid reasoning. No one has to
use or even like everything and what AmigaInc. is doing
(trying to achieve) and in fact only what you see and touch
is what you can use. This will very soon be AmigaOS 4.0 and
the AmigaOne (‘very soon’ in the ‘Amiga meaning’ of it.. 😉
No user _has to_ look further than the screen he’s just now
looking at. (excuse the exaggeration, I know your’re well
looking over the top at what can be done for the future of
AmigaOS :-).
Only the company has to have a further plan and this _plan_
has been laid out, at least in parts.
Needless to say that I am waiting for my AmigaOne (XE-G4) to
arrive (ordered in November) and OS 4 to be finished. I’ve
had no working Amiga for nearly 2 yrs now. That must have an
end.. 😉
Ciao, Alex
BTW, the “Future of Operating Systems: Simplicity” article
somewhat seems to complement what AmigaInc. have written in
the early “AmigaWorld” articles about their “AmiVerse”
vision. Just a coincidence?
@ Solar
I would take most of what is written at ANN with a grain of salt. There are far too many people posting there under fake names.
@ Don Cox
IMO AmigaOS 5 is just a fantasy, at least as described on the Amiga Inc web site.
IMO OS5 is no more a fantasy than let’s say a Playstation 3 with (a) Cell processor(s) or maybe heterogeneous multiprocessing Operating Systems. It may sound fantastic, but the groundwork is being laid. I believe, if someone would have explained to a 1984 Mac user what the Amiga would be like, it may have sounded too fantastic to this person as well.
The old games included with your Party Pack were mostly simple cellphone/PDA targeted games. These older games may look underwhelming on a Desktop, but seeing them running on a 1999 Japanese Zaurus, they are quite impressive.
@ Vidar
My views on CPUs don’t differ too much from the Frieden brothers. I will not dispute the fact that x86 at top clockfrequencies are currently faster than PPC CPUs, but PPCs are IMO far more cleanly designed CPUs. I believe if only an equal amount of money would be spent on its performance advancement, we would have had much more powerful and efficient solutions available today.
Also I believe MacOS X’ relative slowness, inefficiency and bloat damages the reputation of the PPC family. Hopefully OSes including AmigaOS will show off the real performance potential of the PPC family in the near future, like the AmigaOS has been doing so in the past with regard to both 68k and PPC CPUs.
“These older games may look underwhelming on a Desktop, but seeing them running on a 1999 Japanese Zaurus, they are quite impressive.”
I just think it is worth to be pointed out that the Zaurus has much more powerful hardware than the Amiga500 ever had. I don’t find anything impressive about the games that have been shown for the Zaurus or many similarily specced devices so far.
James Daniel’s “Payback” is perhaps the only game for TAO’s intent that looks to be acceptable in terms of underlying technology. (Thumbs up, James!) If one compares what the Fathammer guys are doing with less powerful hardware (i.e. mobile phones rather than PDAs), one has to realize that TAO needs badly third-party developers that know how to write decent 3D code. (Even the A500 with its lame 7Mhz processor had nice 3D games such as Cinemaware’s Wings, so how come there are not even 2D games with Amiga500-type of quality available for intent as of yet? I think I know the answer but it has most certainly nothing to do with ‘outdated’ hardware from 1999.)
http://www.fathammer.com
—
@ André Siegel
I just think it is worth to be pointed out that the Zaurus has much more powerful hardware than the Amiga500 ever had.
The Amiga 500, due to its powerful custom chip design is IMO more suitable for fast and good looking games. Also note that the original Japanese Zaurus has a much slower CPU than the western version (and has a smaller size and uses a proprietary OS).
one has to realize that TAO needs badly third-party developers that know how to write decent 3D code.
With companies like Taito, Capcom, Sega, Acclaim and Eidos creating content, I have a feeling you shouldn’t worry too much about Tao.
> @ Solar
>
> I would take most of what is written at ANN with a grain
> of salt. There are far too many people posting there
> under fake names.
The very same argument had dragged itself across ANN, amiga-news.de and a couple of private mails, so I am as sure as can be that the “no x86 with us” actually came from the Hyperion heads.
Regarding OS 5 going hardware independant – despite consistent nagging Gary Peake about it (with whom I had a good and friendly contact at that time), he was unwilling to commit to that HW independance ever after that infamous April 1st, 2001. It might still be the big dream of Bill McEwen, but market realities have caught them.
The partnership with Tao… when they released the AmigaSDK in Neuss, it was officially the way to go to develop future Amiga*OS* applications. AmigaDE *was* the next AmigaOS. Then it was downscaled to “mobile devices only”, a position that has not changed since. There is no IDE, there is no GUI API or -builder, there is woefully little that isn’t stock Tao stuff. Originally there were no plans for an intermediate AmigaOS 4 PPC, but quite obviously either Tao technology is lacking too much around the edges, or Tao isn’t the willing contributor to this development as originally thought by Bill and co.
Ever since they announced AmigaOS 4 PPC, I have been trying to get official confirmation that AmigaOS 5 will be hardware independant as in the original Amino plans. You will note that *no* official statement released after 2002-04-01 confirms this. Yes, AmigaDE is to be “integrated” in OS 5, but that doesn’t say anything.
Again, I do not blame Amiga Inc. – they had a vision, but it has crumbled under the pressure of the dot-com hype failure, financing troubles and some not-so-nice realities in the Amiga market (“x86 is the spawn of evil”).
Quite frankly, I blame Hyperion. They have always been evasive to my inquiring, despite repetitive public challenging of their motives. They never were able to dispel the suspicion that, ultimately, their PPC-only politics were only for one reason: Hyperion earns money by porting x86 software to the PPC, a market that would evaporate once the AmigaOS truly ran anywhere.
With AmigaOS 4 being PPC only, I fear the last chance for Amiga*OS* to achieve HW independance is lost. Developers *will* code PPC dependant, either because they actively resist ever going x86, or because they just don’t care.
> PPCs are IMO far more cleanly designed CPUs. I believe
> if only an equal amount of money would be spent on its
> performance advancement, we would have had much more
> powerful and efficient solutions available today.
The same was true for the 68k, which didn’t stop the x86 steamroller either.
Motorola is all but out of the desktop CPU business. IBM’s interest in PowerPC (not POWER!) is minute. Rumors keep indicating that Apple might opt for some custom x86 hardware in a couple of years, leaving the desktop PowerPC out in the cold to die. And the Amiga / LinuxPPC / whatever platforms don#t have *any* public awareness to build on. I doubt e.g. IBM is even *aware* of the additional sales created by all non-Apple desktop PPC systems *combined*…
“no x86 with us” actually came from the Hyperion heads.
Yes, most people know that Hyperion isn’t so fond of the x86 architecture, but that fact doesn’t surpize me much, it was those other claims you mentioned.
There is no IDE, there is no GUI API or -builder, there is woefully little that isn’t stock Tao stuff.
Wrong. And personally I don’t care about which parts were created by Tao or Amiga, both have some excellent engineers among them.
You will note that *no* official statement released after 2002-04-01 confirms this.
Yes, many stuff people read here and on Amiga forums with regard to AmigaOS5 is pure speculation. The focus should really be AmigaOS4.0 for now.
Hyperion earns money by porting x86 software to the PPC, a market that would evaporate once the AmigaOS truly ran anywhere.
Hyperion has licenses for porting software to AmigaOS, regardless of the underlying CPU architecture. Their vision with regard to CPUs just happens to differ from your’s. However in the end they take the risks and do the efforts.
Note that source code is being shared between the AmigaDE and AmigaOS4.
> > There is no IDE, there is no GUI API or -builder,
> > there is woefully little that isn’t stock Tao stuff.
> Wrong.
What part of it? Do they have an IDE? GUI API? An *API*? A JavaSE 1.4.1 engine? A v3 gcc? An *object model*? (When the SDK was first released, they promised following up with a desktop-enabled API within months. Now, they will most likely tell you bluntly that AmigaDE isn’t for the desktop.)
> And personally I don’t care about which parts were
> created by Tao or Amiga, both have some excellent
> engineers among them.
Well, *I* care about whether the AmigaSDK gives any added value over the Tao intent (which I am per se *not* interested in) or not…
> The focus should really be AmigaOS4.0 for now.
The problem is:
– I am not interested in buying PPC hardware,
– I am not interested in an OS running on PPC hardware only,
– I *would* be interested in a HW independant AmigaOS, but the AmigaOS 4 PPC simply stands in the way of that, and unnecessarily so.
> Hyperion has licenses for porting software to AmigaOS,
> regardless of the underlying CPU architecture.
But they don’t have a license for creating an AmigaOS 4 for any other CPU architecture than PPC, although it would have been easy enough to do a source compatible AmigaOS x86 while they were at it. They just were not interested…
> However in the end they take the risks and do the
> efforts.
Wrong. The very second a developer picks up a SDK and starts learning, he/she is taking the risk of learning stuff that might vanish from the market, and doing the effort of digging into a new API.
The paragraph above should give you an idea of why I am pissed at both AmigaDE (still the Tao API instead of the promised / scheduled Amiga Inc. one) and the AmigaOS (a market where you cannot break even with anything ambitious because the OS will not spread beyond a couple thousands special boards, with an API that *has* to change if the HW boundary should ever be broken).
That is the reason why I, as a developer, am no longer interested in the Amiga market as a whole. And if you read the early stages of this thread, you will realize that quite a few other developers are alienated by the special hardware requirements…
“I believe if only an equal amount of money would be spent on its performance advancement, we would have had much more powerful and efficient solutions available today.”
I agree that the PPC has less legacy baggage, and in an ideal world it would get the same amount of money for development. But the reality is quite different, and as time goes on, the performance gap will only get bigger.
Vidar
> Wrong.
What part of it?
All of what was quoted by me.
I recommend reading the following interview with ZeoNeo, one of the pioneer AmigaDE developer teams: http://www.amigafuture.de/englisch/eng_interactive/eng_zeoneo2.php
Also the following, somewhat older video demonstration for TechTV may give you a better understanding of some of the techologies Amiga created for the AmigaDE and related technologies behind the scenes:
http://www.aminet.net/pix/mpg/BillTechTV.mpg
For specifics on the latest Amiga tools, developers need to contact Amiga directly and likely sign a NDA or SDA.
Of course there are also various 3rd party developed developer tools including CodeWarrior available for intent:
http://tao-group.com/news_events/press_release_archive/press_releas…
Now, they will most likely tell you bluntly that AmigaDE isn’t for the desktop.
AmigaDE derived technologies are *currently* not *targeted* at the desktop.
I *would* be interested in a HW independant AmigaOS, but the AmigaOS 4 PPC simply stands in the way of that, and unnecessarily so.
Not in the opinion of Amiga Inc and its partners. They see AmigaOS4 as a necessary step towards their future technologies.
With their available resources, they will not port AmigaOS to two different CPU architectures. With regard to CPU preferences, the Amiga community is very much devided. There will always be people left unsatisfied with any decision made.
> I recommend reading the following interview with
> ZeoNeo, one of the pioneer AmigaDE developer teams…
I did read it. He does not mention any IDE, finished API or anything. He just reiterates the basic feature of the *Tao* technology (VP write-once run-anywhere), and sais that *Tao’s* tools and libraries, “and to an increasing extend Amiga’s”, are considered powerful by him.
Hell, people are considering vi powerful. And I would *expect* that the extend of tools provided by Amiga Inc. is “increasing”.
He also states that he is hosting AmigaDE on Windows and Linux, so they are probably making up for the lacking in AmigaSDK with other tools. He also voices gripes with the Amiga’s web-shop-only distribution, and the not-too-steady progress (ha!) of the AmigaDE…
> Also the following, somewhat older video demonstration
> for TechTV…
Been there, saw that.
> For specifics on the latest Amiga tools, developers
> need to contact Amiga directly and likely sign a NDA
> or SDA.
Guess what? I have an NDA. I had a Linux-based AmigaSDK. I had a Windows-based SDK. I still have access to amigadev.net. That’s *why* I am making the claims I made: Amiga Inc. / AmigaDE progress is far from what was promised when the AmigaSDK was released: Direct route to the Amiga*OS* of the future. From Bill McEwen’s mouth, face to face, while he shook my hand, complimented me on my Amiga t-shirt and signed my AmigaSDK manual.
>:-(
> Of course there are also various 3rd party developed
> developer tools including CodeWarrior available for
> intent…
Yeah, *intent*. If you copy, I am talking about the lack of *added value* in the AmigaSDK.
> AmigaDE derived technologies are *currently* not
> *targeted* at the desktop.
They *were* announced as such initially. They are *still* advocated by you as being the big bang to be integrated in AmigaOS 5. If they are not ready for the desktop *today*, and progress is as fast as a snail, and the AmigaDev mailing list is one of the most boring ML’s I’ve ever been on, how on earth shall it be the *base* of a “groundshaking” AmigaOS 5 – not forgetting the fact that, by that time, the whole Amiga*OS* source base will be PPC specific thanks to Hyperion, bye-bye HW independance? This is not Linux where every anybody can patch the sources to retrofit HW independance…
> With their available resources, they will not port
> AmigaOS to two different CPU architectures.
You did not listen (erm, read…), did you? They *had* AmigaOS pure 68k, no hardware dependancies etc. All they had to do is keeping it that way and emulating a goddamn 68k.
That’s not too hard, in fact such emulators are readily available and well-tested (hello UAE, Amithlon, …), voila, HW independance. With the added value that, by the time Tao VP comes into the game, it would likely bring a performance *gain* compared to 68k emulation. Well, OK, you’d lose the existing PPC source base.
But, with things as they are, *IF* Tao VP makes it’s appearance as base technology of AmigaOS 5, they will lose a much *larger* PPC source base, *AND* they will lose performance by going PPC native -> VP. Not much, but something.
And if you are afraid of hardware choice, you could still say “motherboard XY with our special Amiga USB dongle only”.
> With regard to CPU preferences, the Amiga community
> is very much devided. There will always be people
> left unsatisfied with any decision made.
That’s the problem: Most people I talk to that fail to see the issues look at the Amiga community. Tell you what? That “community” has become *IRRELEVANT*. The good coders have left the building. Kleinert, Eilert, Salmoria. GP Software, Digita, Maxon. They are *GONE*. They are now *outside* the Amiga market, together with 99.999% market share.
Thus, you should have a look at how you win people from *outside* the community. What do they have? Macs and x86 PCs. What do they *not* need? A special Amiga PPC motherboard at a premium price…
…got it screwed up. Hyperion is afraid of the capability to dual-boot Windows, because it would make people switch to Windows.
(As if the disability to dual-boot Windows would make people switch to AmigaOne. Ha.)
Well, how hard is it to come up with a cheap stock x86 board and disabling a dual-boot? Like, some checking of the installed hard drives partitioning?
If Amiga Inc. bites the dust, dump the installed AmigaOS and at least you got another box to run Linux / Windows on. But I will *not* invest 600€ plus in a box that I consider likely to fail, no matter how much I would *like* to support it with a line of code or two…
“The Amiga 500, due to its powerful custom chip design is IMO more suitable for fast and good looking games.”
Unfortunately, that is utter nonsense. Especially with regards to 3D engines, the Zaurus’ (or Zauri for all those Latin lovers) graphics chip is much, much better suited for fast and good looking games. But even regarding 2D titles, it is likely to be far more powerful than what you had on an Amiga500. For instance, the allowed screen depth is much, much higher on the Zaurus (16BIT instead of the average 32 colour palette on an Amiga500).
Moreover, the Amiga500 was released with only 512kb of memory whereas the Zaurs comes with 32MB. In addition, the (western) Zaurus has a 206Mhz StrongARM RISC processor which is easily 20 times faster than a 7Mhz MC68000 CISC CPU.
“With companies like Taito, Capcom, Sega, Acclaim and Eidos creating content, I have a feeling you shouldn’t worry too much about Tao.
”
I’ll believe it when I see it… As of now, TAO lacks good-quality content for intent. Period.
If the fore-mentioned companies will actually release games for TAO’s OS, good for TAO, bad for a certain game distributor who seems to be unable to find developing partners of this scope… (No bashing intended. Just an observation.)
In the end, I wonder why I still bother.
Then I remember again: Almost everytime an OS related discussion comes up, I fondly remember how graceful many things have been solved by the original Amiga crew… datatypes, locales, reloadable devices, drive / media naming, shell syntax, and and and… the AmigaOS was (and in some parts still is) a treasure box.
Too bad that the infamous Amiga curse struck again and again and again…
Solar,
Amiga and Tao both have initially misjudged the rates at which their technologies would advance. Amiga isn’t entirely to blame and nor is Tao. I have had some interesting discussions with Tao’s CEO in the past and sadly many things simply did not turn out the way they expected. For this there are various reasons, but most importantly the global economic slowdown within particularly the tech industry.
Regardless IMO things have continued to move forward at a slow but steady pace.
He also states that he is hosting AmigaDE on Windows and Linux
I see nothing wrong with this. A self-hosted SDK would require many drivers, but a hosted SDK environment can take advantage of the vast amount of drivers available for Windows or Linux.
They *were* announced as such initially.
Yes initially. The future outlook has changed considerably, the global market has changed considerably and so the Amiga roadmap has changed as well.
They are *still* advocated by you as being the big bang to be integrated in AmigaOS 5.
AmigaDE integration is planned for AmigaOS 4.2 already.
All they had to do is keeping it that way and emulating a goddamn 68k.
There are people, including me, who would prefer a native OS on more modern hardware. With regard to the future, not everything is carved into stone yet. I think you are expecting unrealistic results from relatively small Amiga companies.
They don’t have 12 billion dollar profits per year unlike a certain wellknown “software” company, yet even they screw up many times and suffer product delays.
Unfortunately, that is utter nonsense.
It’s not, I can assure you that is 100% absolutely my opinion.
Especially with regards to 3D engines
Personally I generally don’t like to play 3D games on PDAs or cellphones. Possible exceptions are racing games like MarioKart (GBA), F-Zero (GBA), Stunt Car Racer (A500) or a game like Trex Warrior (A500). But generally the screen dimensions are just too small. I believe 2D games are a totally different ballgame, most of such games would do excellent on portable devices and luckily most Gameboy Advance games are 2D games.
the (western) Zaurus
I specificly specified the Japanese Zaurus. The games available for the A500 are much better than the games for the 1999 released Japanese Zaurus. (except for maybe Doom on intent, if you still like this game)
@Solar
[Quote]You did not listen (erm, read…), did you? They *had* AmigaOS pure 68k, no hardware dependancies etc. All they had to do is keeping it that way and emulating a goddamn 68k.[/Quote]
If you want AmigaOS running on an emulator, then buy an emulator!!!
About hardware dependancies … one of the Frieden (think it was Thomas) guys from Hyperion have said that most of the Kernel is hardware independant … only “little” written in asm. … the HAL …
It could have been cheaper to chose ONE IA32 system, but how long will the 32bit Intel Architecture last?
About x86 (IA32) … the Amiga has “never” been using x86 – except emulation … PPC has been used since about 1996 … what about all the Amiga users that have AmigaPPC systems? … If AmigaOS would have been for IA32 instead of PPC, then they would target the people that more or less did abandon the Amiga (like myself) … now they target the Amiga users that stayed the Amiga way :O)
@ Henning:
> If you want AmigaOS running on an emulator, then
> buy an emulator!!!
I really would like to, and I have done so, so far, and I bought OS 3.5 *after* my last Amiga hardware went bust because I use UAE regulary.
However, pray tell, how should I emulate an AmigaOS 4 PPC? Answer: Not at all. Which removes me from the list of customers, and potential developers. Hooray.
Why I didn’t develop for OS 3.x? Because it was already clear that this API was outdated. I was waiting for the new one. Which, as it turned out, I am not allowed to use without buying a 600€+ dongle first.
> About hardware dependancies … one of the Frieden
> (think it was Thomas) guys from Hyperion have said that
> most of the Kernel is hardware independant …
> only “little” written in asm. … the HAL …
That’s the whole point of what I was saying: No reason to lock AmigaOS into the PPC niche. They *could* have made AmigaOS *4* hardware independant, technically.
> It could have been cheaper to chose ONE IA32 system,
> but how long will the 32bit Intel Architecture last?
Erm… longer than the AmigaOne motherboards? Longer than Eyetech as an Amiga company, probably?
> PPC has been used since about 1996 …
As an *optional* coprocesser. The number of applications that do *not* have a 68k counterpart is minute. Ported games for the most part. (Sure, *Hyperion* would weep there…)
> what about all the Amiga users that have AmigaPPC
> systems?
Yes, what about them? They could use AmigaOS plus applications on their 68k. Or, they could run an 68k emulator on their PPCs. Which is not so different from what they will be doing with AmigaOS 4 PPC / MorphOS…
> If AmigaOS would have been for IA32 instead of PPC…
No “instead”. I was talking about hardware *independance* here, read, *both* IA32 *and* PPC…
> then they would target the people that more or less
> did abandon the Amiga (like myself) … now they
> target the Amiga users that stayed the Amiga way :O)
How many who left still have AmigaPPC hardware around? Few to none. (I left because my PPC hardware *burned*.)
How many Amiga users that stayed *also* have either a Mac or an IA32? Lots.
How many that are *interested* in AmigaOS 4 have an IA32? Lots’n’lots.
How many of them will buy a 600€+ dongle?
Yes, there’s the question…
Supporting the introduced theme of WHO are most worthy (deserving) of this OS, . . . .
Number one> Folk STILL using A3000+PPC, A4000+PPC, and A1200+PPC.
They were 68K users and took the plunge (i.e. upgraded their Amigas)
(There was a BIG outcry when, at one stage, the Interlectual Property owner announced DROPPING PPC from the future roadmap) … (Subsequently, PPC was returned to the future roadmap — this was in the wilderness years).
Number two> Folk STILL using 68K Amigas. I’m amoung this group. I’m posting from an A2000HD with 68060, 32Mb, PicassoII + Display Enhanser, twin SCSI addaptors, 4 Hard Drives, CD-ROM, Dead Zip, SCSI-Flatbed, standard Serial Port connected Modem.
Number three> Folk STILL using Amigas who also have other platforms.
. . . . . . . . . . .
Somewhere about 6-7 years ago, third-party developers designed and marketed the Power-up PPC accellerators which were bought at quite high prices.
I myself eagerly awaited the “listed” PPC version for the A2000. These were the highest priced …. maybe over $2,200 Australian. The Blizzard 2060 I ended up buying, after that A2000 version never eventuated, cost me $1,100AU. A GVP 030 accellerator I purchased in 1991 cost me $1,600AU.
Folk who bought the FIRST 040 accellerators for the A3000 paid over $3,000AU.
. . . . . . . . . . .
I placed an order for a complete G4XE 800MHz system during the week following the announcement of the availability of that motherboard. I’m paying OVER $2,500AU for that system, and our combined household annual income is UNDER $20,000.
So, I ask posters who’ve stated; “I’m certainly not going to buy expensive under-powered hardware to run AmigaOS 4.0!” . . . . .
why WOULD they even think THEY would be worthy?
Now, when it comes to boasting over hardware: What went up into flames in 1999 was a EsCOM A1200, Blizzard 603e+ PPC board with 233 MHz PPC and 060/50 68k, BVision gfx board, Melody1200 Pro, Quaddddroport, Twister1200, Fiberline PCMCIA Ethernet, 4 GB SCSI drive, ZIP, Jaz, A4 scanner, CD-ROM, CD-R, 19″ CRT, plus loads of software. I did spend > 15,000 € total (sic!) on that system, all in all. My annual “income”, being a student, was the <5000 € my parents payed me. How I financed that beast? Well, I blew all the money my grandma gave me to “give me a headstart into living”.
I also did spend about 10h a *week* doing translations for Amiga software manuals, locales, and the amiga-news.de.
So don’t give me that “worthy” BS.
But back then, I was an enthusiastic student. Today, I am a business professional who thinks twice about what he’s spending the odd hour of free time on. I have a family to feed and a CS career to tend. I could spend 600€ on an AmigaOne and learn the OS 4 API, or I could spend 100€ on good books and learn the Linux API(s). Or .NET.
But I am also in a position that I *could* give Amiga something far more desperately needed than translations: Professional grade software.
But all I (and others interested) get is a ridiculous price tag (for a dongle…), and flames.
I still wish Amiga good luck, though, if for nothing else but nostalgia.
I don’t get you Wintel followers. Not only are you hell-bent on making the world into a murky vision of drab ATX towers on parade, powered by the hot-running, so-many-MHz-we-lost-count-five-years-ago Intel processors, but you also simply can’t accept the fact that AmigaOS will run on PPC hardware. Deal with it! You’re not going to sacrifice your first-born on a Motorola altar, instead you’re getting a computer running an exciting OS.
BTW, Solar, I don’t understand your line of reasoning (well, I made that clear above…). If your computer breaks down, the natural course of action is to get a new computer, unless you decide you’re fed up with computers all together. Your A1200 broke, tough shit. Get a new computer and stop whining! And I don’t want to hear another word about Intel! Hell, those 1979-issue processors won’t even support the correct endian.
Iggy, you simply don’t get it.
I am *not* a Wintel follower. Nothing would make me happier than seeing Amiga taking the computer market by storm. Nothing would make me happier to see them do it at the same time as introducing a custom hardware that simply kicks ass.
And regarding that “get a new system” talk: My workhorse has broken down. Getting a replacement for the old would have cost me 3000 € or more, depending on what additional parts were damaged besides the obviously scorched ones.
Well, I *did* spend 3000 €. That bought me a laptop I could take with me when attending classes – the only way I was able to support amiga-news.de for another 3/4 of a year. It also bought me the Amiga Forever emulator package so I could continue using the Amiga software I grew used to, plus the ARexx script I wrote myself that build the English amiga-news.de pages. It also bought me the platform I was able to utilize to finally leave the hobbyist stage and turn into a CS professional. It also bought me the platform that allowed me to run the AmigaSDK, then announced as the tool to build the Amiga desktop future on.
You know what? You know nothing. Get out of my face, will you? It’s so easy to call another person heretic. That’s what the catholics did when Gallileo told them the earth was not flat.
Moron.
The best way to find out what is happening in the AmigaDE land is to listen to the developers.
http://www.getboinged.org/gbnews.asp?A=204
Here’s a particularly interesting peek to what AI is doing:
http://www.getboinged.org/gbnews.asp?A=117