Microsoft on Monday released an updated version of Windows XP SP1 without the company’s version of Java, complying with a court order that was stayed just hours later. However, today Microsoft received a reprieve on Monday from a court order requiring the company to ship Sun’s Java software.
Microsoft Releases Windows XP SP1a
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Eugenia Loli
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It would be nice to know what version of Java they had bundled with the latest service pack?
Personally I think that the order by the court was the best thing for consumers in that now later on when there is the “application service provider” war the consumer will not need to worry whether it is a .net or java application.
As for Microsoft, why not let the two sit side by side? let the developers, consumers and the BSA wiz kids decide which to use. if .net is superior then these people I have mentioned should instantly gravitate towards the superior solution.
At the end of the day, this move will not cost Microsoft a bean. As for the anti-java doomsayers, I am currently learnin C#, and to be totally honest, yes, it is pretty neat, and I will continue learning it. I’m not learning it because of the “Microsoft factor” but because I am enthusiastic about mono and the possibilities it brings to *BSD and *NIX platforms.
First, Windows XP did not have MS JVM then it did and now their are removing it. Sun complained when Microsoft dropped java and then complained when they included Microsoft’s VM. As of right now the .NET runtime’s are 22MB and will probably grow larger. No version of windows includes .net either. If .net gains any users between now and the next version of windows(2004-2005) it won’t be due to forcing users to use it.
The preliminary injunctions granted by the district court will benefit consumers and the Java community’s developers, enterprises and system vendors.”
How is including Java in every version of Windows actually beneficial to the consumer? Hell, I don’t personally know of any end users who can even stand anything Java to begin with.
What’s the point .. to save them from .NET? Since we don’t want .NET to talk over the world, we try and replace what some call a bad technology with an even worse one? Obviously, I am missing something. ‘Write once, run anywhere’ should be called by its more appropriate phrase ‘Write once, crawl anywhere.’ Don’t get me wrong .. I am not pushing support for .NET by any stretch of the imagination, but if Java is the only alternative we have, why don’t we just go back to using typewriters ?
Ive found Java to be slower and more buggy than anything Microsoft has ever released.
First thing i do when i set up IE is turn Java off.
Interesting comment:
Ive found Java to be slower and more buggy than anything Microsoft has ever released.
First thing i do when i set up IE is turn Java off.
You do realise what you are turning off is the Microsoft JVM, this is microsoft code. Also you are looking at Java technology that is 3 years old at least. This decision is not targeted at “consumers” in the household sense but application framework consumers, that is software development companies.
I am glad to see that finally there is some justice after all. It was really unprecedent to do what the judge did in this case. The judge was really pushing the limits here. It just seems that anybody can be a judge, since it is somewhat a random decision after all.
They complain when it’s left out, they complain when it’s included….and I COMPLAIN when I have to use Sun’s incarnation of Java, which is bloated, slow, and cumbersome. I prefer JVM personally.
Microsoft will no longer release updates or new versions of it’s JVM as a reslt of this case. ie. MS will drop any and all support for java (in all products) leaving Sun to pick up the slack with security/version updates of it’s bloated/buggy JVM. I don’t see how this puts Java in any better position than it was.
MS’s VM is nonstandard and OLD. MS violated a contract in the course of their dealings with Sun (Which I do not recall any specifics on ATM).
Sun has been devastated enough with Microsoft’s tactics to make Java less appealing. Sun’s Java is not slow and is A Good Thing which makes cross-platform development easier (As well as great web applications). Microsoft knew Java’s potential and thus created their own virtual machine with Windows-specific extensions. Knowing they they dominated (And still dominate) the desktop market they knew that Java would eventually become hated as problems were encountered due to their sabatoge. The time would then be ripe for them to offer their own solution, and in enters .NET.
Get a clue people. Unless you’ve read about the case you’re just making asses out of yourselves.
“Unless you’ve read about the case…”
Someone doesn’t want to learn a new programming language lol
They not ONLY created extensions to java but REPLACED standard java components with their proprietary extensions. Had Microsoft made their Java 100% then added ONTOP of the standard proprietary extensions, I would see no issues. The fact renamed that as a result for example, simcity.com had two versions of Java, one for UNIX and SUN based Java virtual machines, then a link for Windows based java. Doesn’t that example simply defeat the whole purpose of write once run anywhere?
As for instability for SUN’s Java, bull crap. I’ve run SUN Java since Java 2 1.3.1 and I’ve never had any problems. Heck, I’ve even programmed using Forte for Java on top of their version of JVM. Rock solid.
It just happened that I had to reinstal XP on my system.
So since SP1a is out that is what I downloaded and applied.
Half way it told me that It cant copy some files and failed to install. After reboot……. Well I guess I better reinstalling again BSOD
Gumba
I wonder if the people who say Suns JVM is unstable actually used Java. I use it everyday (it’s my job) and in my experience it’s very stable. Also I take my classes to Linux, Windows and OSX without changing a letter code and without recompiling. I agree that Swing was slow, but now it is really acceptable. And if you need native Look and Feel, use the SWT classes from IBM (but it won’t run on MacOSX then – at least not yet).
Could you fill me in on SWT. Having never used it, I’m more of a swing man myself, I was wondering that if you use a feature available in one toolkit that is not available in another, say, you use a feature in GTK2 that is not available in Win32, what happens?
With that being said, I’ve never noticed much of a speed problem with swing. If you have a reasonable amount of memory then you’re alright. Personally I think the sacrefice of speed over portability is worth it.
“Could you fill me in on SWT. Having never used it, I’m more of a swing man myself, I was wondering that if you use a feature available in one toolkit that is not available in another, say, you use a feature in GTK2 that is not available in Win32, what happens?”
Nothing, because you cannot do such thing. SWT encapsulate the common GUI behaviour and widgets that exists in all the target platforms. It is of course possible to extend it with OS specific widgets and GUI behaviour, but, why bother? Java is created to create programs with WORA capability.
Note that, there are really two different camps in Java World now. The ones supporting Swing and the ones supporting SWT. SWT usually performs faster than Swing in many cases, since it utilizes native widgets of the OS JVM is running on. Even the native java compilers, such as excelsior jet for windows and gjc for linux already support it, and they able to create executables from SWT based programs along with Swing based ones. Thats because, SWT is becoming more and more common. The reason is that the people behind Eclipse have created SWT. Eclipse is open sourced free IDE that is supported by IBM, but now have its own consortium including 30+ biggest players in the IT world, such as SAP, Oracle, HP, Macromedia, Nokia, etc. (-SUN, -MS of course.) So, it is pretty well backed up.
You can get more information on SWT from the Eclipse site, containing lots of documentation, example programs etc. Eclipse IDE for instance, is fully developed with SWT. Here it is: http://www.eclipse.org
“What’s the point .. to save them from .NET? Since we don’t want .NET to talk over the world, we try and replace what some call a bad technology with an even worse one? Obviously, I am missing something. ‘Write once, run anywhere’ should be called by its more appropriate phrase ‘Write once, crawl anywhere.’ Don’t get me wrong .. I am not pushing support for .NET by any stretch of the imagination, but if Java is the only alternative we have, why don’t we just go back to using typewriters ?
”
Neither .NET nor Java is bad technology. .NET does not offer WORA. Only Java does, and it works. I can give you 100 examples in which WORA works perfectly, and they do not crawl. Maybe it is time for you and other people to update yourselves to the facts of the date. Java crawls myth is kinda 5 years old. Java 1.4.1_02 rocks. Java 1.4.2 is coming in a month or two containing further optimizations and bug fixes. Swing performance is improved 25-45 percent according to initial reports. Plus, it will come with GTK and Windows XP look and feels.
Lots of people are constantly saying that Java is dying. What I see is completely opposite. There are many new Java projects, especially client side software, popping like shrooms everywhere. For instance, check out Sourceforge’s Java foundry to check out new projects.
I think it really is not very important for Java if MS distributes Sun’s version with Windows or not. The most important thing is that MS MUST NOT ALLOWED TO distribute its crippled fucked up JVM implementation, and thats granted already.
There are many programs such as Morpheus2, Jedit, JAlbum, etc. that have wide userbase, which will force Windows users to install Sun’s latest Java release anyway.
“Could you fill me in on SWT.”
Here is a SWT tutorial just released a week ago from IBM. Its pretty neat start for learning SWT together with the tutorials already available at Eclipse website.
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/os-ecgui1/index….
People still speak about “Java from Microsoft”. But there is no such thing! (IIRC MS called their Java-like framework one time J++ to differenciate it from Java)
A fact people here seem to don’t know:
Microsoft’s Java-like runtime is NO Java runtime.
“Java” is well defined. Okay, there is no formal semantic specification for Java but there is a testsuit for it. Things which pass this test suit can be called “Java”. Things which don’t are no Java. Microsoft’s VM didn’t pass the tests (not because of incompetence of MS’ software designers, but a decision from some MS high-ups).
CroanoN is a troll, he doesn’t even know that Java was owned by Sun until I told him that it is.
Java sucks by the way. There are guys here who do research all for speeding up the Java. CroanoN is lying, don’t believe her. Java 1.4 is not a different runtime system, it usually refers to the new classes, not the JVM. JVM is the same technology.
Java projects are popping up, but so do every other language projects, because of the simple fact that more and more people use computers, have access to it, program on it and so on. It is not particular to Java, and its rate is not significant.
Anybody who claims that Microsoft’s JVM is crippled probably doesn’t know much about Java. My friends here who do research on Java, say that the most crippled JVM is from Sun, since it is too slow and inefficient. Sun obviously doesn’t innovate much.
JEdit is a great program, but you can’t have drag a file and open in it. These programs will never be as good as native ones. So shut up CroanoN.
I don’t agree with you. CroanoN has valid points and you are
calling people names. You are the one who looks like a troll to me.
>How is including Java in every version of Windows actually >beneficial to the consumer? Hell, I don’t personally know >of any end users who can even stand anything Java to begin >with.
>I am missing something. ‘Write once, run anywhere’ should >be called by its more appropriate phrase ‘Write once, >crawl anywhere.’
Well as a person who writes apps in Java all day…I can say that a lot of Java apps are not coded well and this slows them down even more. I have a large java app and you would not know that it is written in java, except on OS X. The other platforms are pretty zippy.
What apps have you had bad luck with?
>JEdit is a great program, but you can’t have drag a file >and open in it. These programs will never be as good as
>native ones.
Why can’t this happen? If you want it, maybe you should request it to Slava….
Java as I have said countless times is not controlled by any non-commercial standards body, but a group for which Sun has a veto power on any proposed changes to it. Java is not much more open than Flash or any of countless other closed source projects. One CAN NOT write a Java VM without signing an NDA! Java is NOT an open standard. Microsoft is not bound and should not be bound to carry Java past the end of the original contract with Sun. If Sun wants to recoup money for Microsoft abrogating the original contract they should have sued MS for appropriate fees in theoretical lost revenue(a couple billion dollars I guess) for the period of time after Microsoft abrogated the original contract. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the originial contract would have expired already(assuming that MS did not abrogate it, so any order for MS to carry java is not enforcing the contract, but judicial activism.)
What apps have you had bad luck with?
Mainly this one:
http://squirrel-sql.sourceforge.net
Hi Serge,
Sure Serge,
Bye Serge.
: ))))
What is your problem with SQUillel SQL? I am using it for a long time, and did not have any problems.
By the way, I also use another Java based SQL Client called Aqua Studio, and it is fantastic. It is able to connect to more than one databases and show them in its tree view. And, it is FREE and works on all the platforms! Give it a try: http://www.aquafold.com/