The latest problem I was working out was how to run Unix on the Atari ST. The Tramiels had somehow wrangled a license for AT&T’s SVR-something-or-other version of Unix (might have been SVR3, but this was in the bad old days when AT&T was actively fucking up Unix, and it could have been just about any version, including SVR666). The license was for a mind boggling, nay, jaw-dropping ten bucks a seat. The problem was that the ST didn’t have any kind of memory management hardware, just a raw CPU flinging real addresses at naked DRAM, and the machine’s cheap-ass vanilla 68000 was incapable of recovering from a fault unless you cheated.
On a related note, there’s MiNT.
Nice to see Thom mention MiNT – Eric did a pretty good job on it considering the hardware at the time (all in the days before Linux).
I used to use MiNT on an Atari Falcon to run X11 for dialup sessions the university mainframe so I didn’t have to drive into the city just to read my mail (days before home internet connections).
But X was painful and GEM couldn’t multitask with MiNT, so I eventuallly wrote a little window system especially for MiNT and open sourced it
Edited 2015-11-27 23:47 UTC
Although Atari bought MiNT, and so it became MiNT is Now TOS instead of MiNT is Not TOS, and produced a version of GEM that would multitask, test versions were available, just never a real release version.
Yep. Actually they did a very slow version of MultiTOS before using MiNT (1991 I think that was). The final unreleased version of the AES for MiNT wasn’t bad – it just wasn’t fished.
XaAES was better though as it was writen from scratch for MiNT
I never experienced it, however it’s very interesting to learn that this was available. While this is something we can never know, it’s very curious to think about how different the evolution of computing would have been if Atari had risen to prominence instead of wintel.
Would things be the same as today, merely with different companies and people getting credit, or would there have been significant divergence in the evolution of personal computing?
Considering how the Tramiels were driving the company short sighted, with the only goal to ruin Commodore, I don’t think it would have gone really far, especially regarding the quality of their SDK (ST, Falcon, Jaguar) and related documentation (or lack thereof).
Btw the ST line of computer (plus TT and Falcon) were really strange beast, very pleasant to code in this beautiful 680×0 assembler. But the OS was so out of date beyond the 80s.
More in-deep articles :
http://www.fultonsoft.com/
Of all the home computer OSes of 1980-1998, only MS-DOS and its clones have survived in any meaningful way. Windows and MacOS got replaced by ports/clones of VAX OSes (VMS and Unix respectively) with an API shim on top and some superficial graphical similarity, and the rest vanished into the mists of time entirely. Saying the ST’s OS was “limited beyond the 1980s” is sort of obvious.
tidux,
That’s what I was thinking as well. The question wasn’t really meant in the context of Atari standing still for 35 years. Obviously MS evolved too. MS really became significant because of product bundling, it’s products were otherwise quite a bit lacking at that time. I’m just curious where the technology would be now if there were different leaders influencing it, for better or worse.
The biggest advantage of PC, beside bundling the OS, was the modularity. Want a bigger video card ? Want a better sound card ? Want to switch from coax to Ethernet ? Just do it.
The ST line haven’t much evolved in almost a decade, and when the Falcon came on the market, it was 16 MHz with a maximum of 14 MB of RAM, when the Mac line was at least 4 times more powerful in every aspect.
The TOS also have evolved too slowly, Mint then Multitos was a resource hog, yet relatively stable. A chance Atari has put some standard into the Falcon (IDE, SCSI, VGA via adapter).
The RAM slot would have been better with a standard SIMM support though. And two PS2 ports for keyboard and mouse.
UNIX pre-dates VAX. Neither is a clone of the other.
Learn to read. I said NT is a clone of VMS and OS X is a Unixlike.
NT isn’t a clone of VMS. NT was influenced by VMS.
If I remember correctly, MS hired the guy behind VMS.
Sure, but that doesn’t mean what they ended up with was based on VMS. That’s like saying C# is Delphi because Microsoft hired Anders Hejlsberg. Sure I can point out a lot of the ideas and concepts he brought with him, but it’s clearly closer to a Java clone.
Sure, but the goal of C# was to be the next Java, hence the similitudes.
But the component model that the Foundation uses is so similar to Delphi (especially in the 1.0/1.1 days) that I picked up C# in about 2 weeks already being familiar with the general C++/Java syntax. It really was just the syntax that different. The enums, properties, base classes, implementation using Interfaces, terminology, the way reflection worked (through Delphi called it RTTI) all basically the same. When you compare C# to Java, it’s all the syntax. But the actual way the class libs are laid out is very different.
The base class library has now changed a lot, and Delphi seriously fell behind with the various buzzwords and features. But back in the day, it was like a clone of the basic ideas that Anders brought to RAD via Object Pascal.
I also used the J++ and WFC, which was the forerunner to CLR/DotNet. A lot of the ideas that ended up in DotNet came from the WFC via Delphi, but not all of them. Mainly because they were still trying to leverage the basics of the Java runtime.
Its unclear that’s what you meant by that statement. The ports/clones section, you meant the ports to refer to BSD-Unix being ported to Mac hardware and clones referring to NT as a clone of VAX. So there are three sections in that phrase where you are dealing with comparing two different things.
The first one “Windows and MacOS”
Second “ports/clones of Vax”
Third ” VMS and UNIX respectively”
In the first part you have Windows first then Mac
Second Mac then Windows
Third Windows then Mac.
Its also unclear that ports/clones of Vax is a two part and not trying to group Mac and Windows together to say that they both have either a clone or a port of Vax.
I’m not one to critique one’s grammar normally, except when some one claims that some one else’s valid interpretation of their sentence is wrong and they need to “Learn to read”.
There is nothing wrong with Vanders reading comprehension, nor is there anything necessarily wrong with you writing. Its just unclear.
Edited 2015-11-30 21:00 UTC
I had a 520STfm with 1Mb ram and an external 40Mb HD
There was Mark Williams C, it came with a Unix like command line that was close to c-shell.
msh with micro EMACS
Unrelated to software… The worst keyboard ever created was in the 520ST. Totally awful it was barely usable.
Never had an issue, typed kilometers of listing without any problem. The ST mouse was an issue though, with its sharp edges to look like the computer. And the ball collecting dust like any other.
Edited 2015-11-28 16:25 UTC
🙂 I soon after I got my 1040ST bought replacement caps for the keyboard. A difference like day and night.
I ran Minix 1.2 on a 1040ST expanded to 4 MB w/an AERCO board (anybody here remember what that acronym meant? 🙂 and a 40 meg hard drive.
It wasn’t quite “real” Unix I suppose – though it was darned close – but it was a heck of an improvement over TOS.
There was also a shell for the ST (written by Mark Mallett) that was far better than what passed for “bash” at the time – built-in command completion and such, which he patterned after TOPS-20 IIRC.
Get Minix 1.5 there :
http://www.minix3.org/previous-versions/Atari/
http://download.minix3.org/previous-versions/Ref-man-1.5/Atari.nrf
Use Hatari 1.9.0 or Steem SSE 3.7.2 to boot from disk01. Try to attach a 80 MB hard disk image to the emulator first, so that you can install Minix on it.
Edited 2015-11-28 17:33 UTC
Funny that this is brought up now, I think I’m going to attempt to get a Falcon, I tried to fire up my TT030 yesterday, and seems I have a broken reset switch, pulled it out best I can, and it booted to a white screen, but then I don’t have a hard drive connected to it right now… may have to sell it off, to pay for the Falcon though… always wanted one, but could never find one.
The Falcon030 is hugely overrated and deceptive. Without a load of commercial products like NVDI or HDDRIVER, you won’t get much juice out of it. Too expensive for what you’ll get.
It’s too expensive for a 16Mhz machine in 2015, but they’re unlikely to ever go down in value much if at all now.
I bought one 3 years ago after wanting once since they launched, and I can say it’s a joy to use. Of all the computers I own it’s my favourite, and coding on it makes for a nice break from the world of modern development.
Yeah, coding on it is a breeze, now that documentation is available and dev tools released for free on DHS.
Don’t forget to replace the NVRAM because when the battery will fail, you won’t be able to boot the machine up.
I’m actually using the DHS demo framework to get the video mode setup etc.. Been trying to write a columns clone but limited free time means it’s really slow going (I got stuck on one bug for 6 months until I finally used a 68k simulator on windows to debug the relevant code).
Replacing the NVRAM with a socket & new chip was the first thing I did with my Falcon… didn’t do the world’s greatest job but it does work!
Hmm, I’m guessing the person I’m going to be buying mine from has already done that, he’s added in the CF card, so at least there’s that. I was kind of wondering if that’s why my TT030 didn’t boot, though I think it has TOS3.05, which doesn’t have the Atari Logo+Mem test if I recall, so it could very well be it’s just giving me the white screen ’cause I have no hard drive connected to it.
White screen on TT is a memory problem, clean your SIMM connector with alcohol and put it back back nicely.
Never understood why Atari have not put a battery holder in the Falcon like they did in the Mega ST and TT.
Cool, I’ll give that a shot. The internal speaker still works, because I hooked up my Mega STe keyboard to it (lost the TT030’s beautiful white one, long story, need to get a replacement, it makes me feel sad..) and if I hit a key, it makes the ‘tink’ noise, so at least I know that bit is working.
I wonder if I could still find TOS 3.06 for it…
I’ve still got the Falcon I wrote XaAES on sitting in the garage (it was modified a bit – afterburner bus accellerator, PC keyboard interface, reboxed in a Mac IIc desktop case for space, bigger HD, more RAM, etc). No idea if it still boots though… It’s not been powered up since the end of the 90’s – I don’t think I actually have a PS/1 keyboard to use with it now… the VGA and Atari paper white monitor adaptors are probably kicking around as well.
Don’t suppose it needs a good home?
Isn’t XaAES still maintained? Looks like there’s a picture of you out there! http://xaaes.atariforge.net/history.php?xaaes=history
Related to the topic at hand, System V Unix WAS available for the Atari, just not the ST, but the TT030, just like it was for the A3000. Unfortunately the A3000 version was written with only it in mind, so it doesn’t run on even an A4000.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_TT030
I submitted this story in 2011, back when he wrote the original article:
http://www.osnews.com/story/24287/How_the_Atari_ST_Almost_Had_Real_…
Not sure this really adds much to that, other than filling out the stories here slightly.
it is nice to see so much ex-atari people here…
The first computer I purchased was a 130XE with disk drive and thermal printer. Hooked it up to my TV and went to town, this would have been about 1985.
Very shortly thereafter I had a 1200 baud modem dialing into the Cleveland Freenet, which hooked into at least 10 other freenets around the globe, one of the earliest ‘internets’.
I’ll never forget coming downstairs for dinner so proud of myself and telling my mother I was browsing the stacks at the Helsinki, Finland public library and to not pick up the phone.
She jumped up, nearly spilled her food, and demanded I disconnect from Finland immediately!! Did I know how much this was going to cost!!!
I explained to my mom it was a local call and then the computer did the connecting, no long distance needed. I think it took her another 10 years before she understood that 😉
I had a 130XE too, great machine.
I had an Atari 400 with 16K expansion (total of 32K ram) and the 410 cassette. Over the years, I expanded it, adding a BKey replacement keyboard, the Mosaic 64K ram expansion, a Percom DS/DD floppy, and the RS232 expansion box with a JCat 300 baud modem (FEEL THE SPEED!!!). When it was time to move to 16-bit, I did a little research and bought the Amiga 500 since the Amiga was the real successor to the Atari 8-bit computer. I still have that Atari 400, stored in its original box for safety while I use a 65XE for everyday use. I also have that old A500, also stored in its original box for safety while I use an A1200 for everyday use. If I hadn’t gotten the A500, I’d have gotten the 520ST. My oldest brother had one and it was a fine machine.
That’s an awesome story, my first computer was my Atari 800XL, which I newly discovered had no color issues at all, and I just needed to tweak the potentiometer in it! I had thought I’d broken something because at one point in time many moons ago, I had dropped it down the stairs.
I still have my Atari 300 baud modem for it in a box too… Though I didn’t really start using modems until my 1200 baud modem with my Atari Mega STe. Nothing like downloading for a full day to get 1mb of a demo that ended up not working… Granted it took several attempts because people kept picking up the phone…
Yeah, that was really weird – using a potentiometer to set the clock rate. I had to adjust mine as well (used the TV, a game, and a magazine screenshot to do so). I knew another Atari guy who cranked his up as high as it would go to “overclock” his 800. He was using the monitor out to avoid the color issue. That was one of the nice things about the Atari line – other than the A400, all the Ataris had a monitor output with separate color and luminance lines. I use that on my 65XE with a 21″ multimedia monitor these days.
If you have time, please come to atari forum and vote in poll:
http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=28767
read stories about how people get involved in computer world and leave your story as well
and also check out Atari software archive with screenshots and some video files of ST software: http://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/index.php?folder=/DTP
Ha, that page is incorrect, Calamus in high res wouldn’t run on an SC1224, it had to run on the SM124. Sadly (long story) my working SC1224 was tossed in a dumpster, my non-working SC1435 is sitting in my other room, sadly with a cracked PCB, I need to see if I can fix it one of these days…
🙂 maybe I should add one “IF” in PHP…
I have LCD hooked to ST but SM124 and SC1224 is real deal!