Here is – at times frustrating, and at times exhilarating – the journey I made trying to get Linux working on my desktop. This is the experience of someone who tried using Linux for the first time (most Linux veterans will probably find nothing surprising here). The whole experience reminded me of all the fun I used to have playing with Windows 3.1. Although it was not easy, it does show that a novice can make Linux work with a little persistence.“Man is free at the moment he wishes to be.” –Voltaire
Small Pleasures
These are my requirements for the home PC:
Live Free or Die!
I have been hearing and reading for a long time that Linux is great, that Linux is cool, and that Linux is free (as in live free or die). I do not have the option to choose OS at work – I primarily do database work for large corporations using expensive commercial databases. I have been thinking of trying Linux at home for some time, and got the final impetus when:
Dead Snakes
I downloaded Red Hat 8: the installer started off by asking a couple of simple questions, and then went into ‘starting anaconda…’ mode. A few monitor clicks… and, nothing! Waited a few a few minutes and reboot, and reboot, and reboot – the same thing happened again and again. The whole experience left me with an unhealthy desire for green snakes.
Slithering Snakes
A few days later I found the Red Hat CDs again lying on my desk. I decided to give it another try (this time carefully reading all the options). Tried different installer resolutions, and finally got the installer to proceed in text mode. When it reached X configuration, I decided to test it and the whole thing froze again. Did a fresh re-install again and this time did not try to test X. Installation completed successfully. At startup the system froze again when trying to bring up X. By this time it was clear to me that it had something to do with my video card (integrated GeForce2 on nForce chipset). Google is your friend and I found host of problems people were having with nForce. nVidia provided the drivers, but installation instructions ran into several pages. At this point my patience had run out and I decided to forget about the whole thing.
X-Files
Luckily a few days later slashdot published an article about the new installer relased by nVidia, based on the Loki installer designed to make driver installation painless. With X up and running, the first thing to strike me was that the fonts used by Mozilla were super ugly.
Freedom tainted
Googling around, I found excellent instructions on how to install MS (that is right: MS) fonts. Mozilla was still ugly as butt, and after some fiddling I realized that ‘edit’ing your ‘preferences’ fixes that for you.
(Mod)Probing in the dark
Neither the integrated ethernet nor the sound worked. Google to the rescue again and finally (after several days and several reinstalls) I found that the nVidia binary driver (rpm) along with some arcane entries (modprobe) to equally arcane file /etc/rc.d/rc.local (that was easy to guess!), not mentioned anywhere in nVidia documentation makes audio and ethernet to work properly. The digital camera tool can detect the G1 but cannot download any pictures – gives some useless error message.
Flowery Drug
The whole process of making nVidia hardware to work with Red Hat seemed too cumbersome. With camera still not cooperating I decided to give Mandrake a try. Downloaded 9.1, the graphical installer worked fine and everything including the printer were correctly detected (and allegedly configured) without any intervention whatsoever.
If it is too good to be true, it probably is
With installation completed, I started Linux for first time, and… no mouse pointer! The buttons get highlighted when the imaginary pointer goes over them and the mouse works just fine but is quite frustrating to use if you cannot see the pointer. An install of nVidia X drivers made the mouse pointer appear. The great thing about Mandrake is the gorgeous fonts right out of the box. But audio, ethernet or camera (2 different tools: GTKam & FLPhoto) – though all detected properly – do not work. The internet configuration tool does not work properly. The boot-loader configuration tool does not work as intended (the settings are not changed even though no errors were reported). I could have probably changed the boot-loader settings by modifying some config files like I did on Red Hat. Red Hat does not have a GUI for boot-loader settings, but then the way I look at it that it does not promise to do something that it cannot do. Overall it appears as if Mandrake has a lot of flash b!
ut not properly implemented under the hood (based on my very limited trial). I also found that Red Hat’s automatic disk partitioning much better in utilizing all the three disk drives in my PC (Mandrake’s installer would use only one disk).
First Love
It may be high maintenance, but Red Hat is dependable. Although not ideal I find Red Hat’s organization of start menu better than Mandrake. And lack of choice on Red Hat, in my opinion, is better than Mandrake’s, as lot of choice only tends to create more confusion. Also, I found that all the camera tools (Red Hat as well as Mandrake) are based on GPhoto and finally got it working by removing the ac adpater from camera while downloading the pictures (go figure)! I have not tested CD burning yet, but feel confident that I should be able to get it working now. I even got udma working on all the drives. After putting in all this effort to make it work, I actually feel worthy of my newfound freedom.
…and my admiration for Larry Ellison is second only to Bill Gates
This guy admires Bill… come on… is that the type of person we want having Linux desktops.
Why not? Bill Gates is a fantastic businessman, he has earned the respect of other businessmen. Give credit where credit is due please.
I also have a Nforce board and for a newbie the big hurdle is to get the network up&running.
With Mandrake 9.1 sound and non-accelerated graphics worked out-of-the-box, but for network and accelerated graphics, one needs the Nvidia drivers.
/Kenneth
I think Bill’s probably an awesome programmer and seems to have some great ideas for computers and their uses (not that the implementation they propose makes me wanna consider Windows on my *home* desktop), but the business side of things is more Steve’s area, even if Bill did take MS through a lot of the beginning / middle.
Although I’m not using an Nvidia card in my Linux box, I’m using an ATI Rage 128. Hardware accelerated 3D was enabled for me and I didn’t have to do anything. That’s a big plus for a newbie.
Perhaps, but a horrible ethicist. I feel sorry for anyone who would admire someone simply because they are a great business man. Look beyond how many billions of dollars he has earned and see he earned it basically by buying ideas and possibly illegally.
Many thanks to the author, who gives a good hint on whats to expect when trying to install Linux for the first time.
And he seams to like what he saw! 🙂
if Linux was so ready for the desktop, nobody would even think of posting an article about success with it – it’d be so a matter of course that nobody would bother to say it, much like with MacOSX.
I’m happy for the guy I must say… however, why go through all the hazzle with a Linux box when you can just have a Winbox that works.
Everyone keeps bragging about the install… if you do some heavy usage, what will happen with it in a year from now? How long does it take before dependency hell it’s it up.
It doesn’t matter which distro you choose, Linux ain’t made for desktop, nor is it made for joe user. It’s a BSD wannabe…
Me too! I admire Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Larry Ellison and Kenneth Lay.
Ana O´Neemus
Technical Writer
The Garfield Group
Linux will be read for the desktop once we have a control panel for the Nvidia cards and once these drivers have the same features as the windows ones…
“why go through all the hazzle with a Linux box when you can just have a Winbox that works”
BeBoy: As the author stated FREEDOM!
While the author may admire Bill Gates, my admiration at this moment is directed towards the author. Event after event the ditro didn’t work the way it should have. He kept working at it, investing hours and hours of time over several days, until his computer was finally running Linux.
Any lesser person would have said “screw this,” installed Windows, and been done in an hour.
Best Wishes,
Bob
You can get a winbox that works!? you must tell me where I can find such a novelty
(Bill Gates is a fantastic businessman, he has earned the respect of other businessmen. Give credit where credit is due please.)
Credit where credit is due? Don’t get me wrong, Bill Gates is obviously brilliant. So were Boss Tweed, Cornelius Vanderbilt, and John Rockefeller. If, when one says “fantastic businessman,” one means “person who will do anything and trample anyone in order to get what he wants,” then maybe Gates is a fantastic businessman. I think we’d be better off holding public figures to a higher standard, and demanding that good business be in line with good ethics.
—————————–
Linux will be read for the desktop once we have a control panel for the Nvidia cards and once these drivers have the same features as the windows ones…
——————————-
See
http://yanc.sourceforge.net/index-en.html
But not all joe users have Nvidia vieo cards, so this argument is false for me.
“You can get a winbox that works!? you must tell me where I can find such a novelty”
Go to Dell Small Business. ( http://www.dell.com/us/en/bsd/products/series_dimen_desktops.htm?DG… )
Click on “Featured Systems” under the Dimension 4550 column.
Click on “Customize It” under the “Advanced Technology” column.
Select the free 60GB HD upgrade option.
Continue to check out. Price should be $599.
An automatic $100 discount should appear in your cart.
Send in the $100 rebate.
Final price is $599 – $100 auto discount – $100 rebate = $399 w/ free shipping.
On Bill being a “great” programmer
From “Programmers at Work” by Microsoft Press, interview with Bill
(found on comp.os.os2.advocacy),
Interviewer: “Is studying computer science the best way to prepare to be a programmer?”
Gates: “No, the best way to prepare is to write programs, and to study great programs that other people have written. In my case, I went to the garbage cans at the Computer Science Center and I fished out listings of their operating system.”
http://www.salon.com/02dec1995/departments/gates.html
http://ulkhyvlers.net/~tomte/microsuck.html
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/1/11671.html
http://www.quotemeonit.com/gates.html
How funny and telling it is that he started with trash, made his immense wealth with trash and continues with trash to this very day. (Yep he’s a biz genius alright, for sure dudes)
http://www-2.hoovers.com/co/capsule/4/0,2163,57152,00.html
So with that investment he has his own personal disposal service for those times when it REALLY needed.
http://www.forbes.com/home/2002/06/20/0620documents.html
And wonder why healthcare and prescriptions remain so costly in the US?
http://www.mercola.com/2002/jun/1/bill_gates.htm
Oh and BTW way now he wants to control your music choices.
http://www.nypost.com/business/33958.htm
It sure is a comforting feeling knowing Bill is “watching” out for us with all that business and programming expertise.
I just don’t know what we all would do without him????
I admire the author’s tenacity. Linux had better start working better than this on most hardware if it is going to make it to the desktop. (For one thing, hopefully, Nvidia will finally nail all these driver problems soon).
But is it just me, or can I say that that this is not exactly a typical linux install experience??
And yeah, that charge about mandrake having graphical tools that have not been properly coded under the hood is very true. It seems they made a lot of changes and rushed them out without proper testing. Hopefully, they will tidy things up in the next verion.
Hey Jag, maybe you should give RedHat 9 a try? I believe some of the issues you encountered in Redhat 8 have already been worked out in that version.
>>
Bill Gates is a fantastic businessman
>>
Actually, Stever Ballmer is the fantastic businessman, not Bill Gates. Microsoft as we know it would probably not exists without Steve.
I like from the sentence:
“Man is free at the moment he wishes to be.” –Voltaire
The truth is that use linux or any “alternative” (non-M$) operating system nowadays depends mainly of your attitude.
If you wants to use an operating system using all your legacy software and don’t learn anything new, it is best you stay on Widows and PAY for it and all applications you run on top of Windows (yes, pay for all you laziness).
If you don’t want to be slave of a single vendor (M$) and if you don’t want to be a sheep, comfortable on your flock, you must try to use linux or other alternative O.S.
I am using linux as my exclusive desktop and I am typing this text now from a linux machine. I am browsing internet, sending and receiving emails, listening mp3, playing some videos and some games. I can use OpenOffice or LaTeX for make my documents and presentations and I can program scientific applications in C/C++ without buy a compiler.
And I am not in USA and englis is not my native language !! Then stop to say linux is not prepared fort desktop ! You are not ready to change to anything new !!
Then pay for your laziness and make Bill Gates richer. He is not a genius, only sufficient smart to mantain your monopoly.
I am not saying that linux is perfect for all but you can use it as your desktop OS if you are ready to learn something new. There are no technical reasons to say that linux cannot be used as a desktoop OS. The main obstacle for linux desktop is the absence of free alternatives or commercial applications in some fields, like CADs, professional graphical programs amd other. If you have a program like Maya, for exemple, you can use linux as a powerfull and professional workstation/desktop.
The M$ advantage is that the software companies are still making desktop applications for Windows-only PCs. If they begin to make linux ports, the situation will change quickly…
—————————-
Actually, Stever Ballmer is the fantastic businessman, not Bill Gates.
—————————-
Yes, Steve Ballmer is fantastic 🙂 See the “dance monkey boy” video:
http://www.msboycott.com/media/
http://www.ntk.net/ballmer/mirrors.html
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“You can get a winbox that works!? you must tell me where I can find such a novelty”
Go to Dell Small Business. ( http://www.dell.com/us/en/bsd/products/series_dimen_desktops.htm?DG….. )
Final price is $599 – $100 auto discount – $100 rebate = $399 w/ free shipping.
———————————
Note that there is:
Dell PCs use genuine Microsoft® Windows®
http://www.microsoft.com/piracy/howtotell
and there is no option to remove the M$ tax… Why not ? The final price would be reduced by $50 or $100 if there was an “no operating system” or “XXX linux” option …
He’d like RedHat 9 a lot more, I’m guessing, which uses a newer version of XF86 that can detect the nForce right off the bat.
But, hey, Linux is Linux. Congrats to the man for his perserverance.
-Erwos
But he didn’t; at least he hasn’t tried to burn a CD
Every other day I’m seeing so-and-so’s attempt to try Linux on the desktop, either the author installs and uses Linux with success or they don’t.. all these articles do is state the obvious. I’m yet to see one that adds anything of value to the debate for either side. The only message that keeps being restated is “Use whatever works for you”, and this isn’t a very insightful or particularly new idea either.
>”why go through all the hazzle with a Linux box when you >can just have a Winbox that works”
>BeBoy: As the author stated FREEDOM!
uuhhhh… he’s just as free on windows.
mozilla/ie
OOo/M$office
etc
etc
i spose the only set back for windows is the $200 license for XP home (but for all the time spent on setting it up is the $200 saving worth it?)
Gareth
“Bill gates a fantastic business man.”
billg is a good businessman,not great.
What he is fantasticly lucky, to have
mom who steered IBM to fledgling MS looking for an OS, for IBM being dumb enough to let MS retain ownership of OS) and
and a Goverment that lets them maintain and abuse a Monopoly. Also a fantastic bully.
Some having watched his DOJ testimony might also say he is a fantastic liar, but I would disagree here.
IMHO he is a terrible liar, becuase he fooled no one.
he is a fantastic liar, but he i
id be more than happy to set up a linux box for you for even 100 bucks
How can someone who runs a company that has been found guilty of illegal anti-trust behaviour be considered a good businessman in a market economy. One of the fundamental tenets of a market economy is competition.
However Gates et al will do anything within their power, to avoid putting their products into a competetive market place. Does this benefit business/consumers? No. It stifles innovation, keeps prices high, and prevents resources flowing to their highest value use.
In my view, this does not make them good businessmen.
“i spose the only set back for windows is the $200 license for XP home (but for all the time spent on setting it up is the $200 saving worth it?)
Gareth”
Another set back is the license itself.
Hi,
Take a look at Mandrake linux, even a child can install and configure it!
Bye
“i spose the only set back for windows is the $200 license for XP home (but for all the time spent on setting it up is the $200 saving worth it?)
Gareth”
No, If i’ve had to pay $/€200 for an OS having one equally suitable for nothing, even with some hassle (which i think it’s not the case for me with Linux/BSD) i’ll try to make the former work.
For an additional $200 I can invest in some more hardware (as a matter a fact, I’ve done it) or buy an Apple instead or even travel more.
For me Linux suits as a glove. If it doesn’t fit you, fine! DON’T USE IT!
P.S: I would be happy to setup a box (Server, Desktop, etc) for you for nothing (just for the fun)
Thinking again. If I was really interested, I would by some books that helped me figured out how things work for much, much less than $/€200.
I’ve never tried Linux and never will, but from the comments I see posted here as well as news media articles, it seems that Windows is better than Linux. Period. All you Linux goons — stop wasting your time tiping commands and editing config files… just get Windows XP. It works.
Linux will be read for the desktop once we have a control panel for the Nvidia cards and once these drivers have the same features as the windows ones…
What features would those be? Besides DirectX I am pretty sure I can do anything with my card under linux I can under windows.
I’ve never tried Linux and never will, but from the comments I see posted here as well as news media articles, it seems that Windows is better than Linux. Period. All you Linux goons — stop wasting your time tiping commands and editing config files… just get Windows XP. It works.
Well, then go down to the wal-mart and pick up a tube of vaseline ’cause Palladium is on its way. I hope you enjoy Microsoft owning you. I know I will.
“The whole experience reminded me of all the fun I used to have playing with Windows 3.1.”
I think that probably explains why I find Linux so frustrating and hate all the time I have to waste reading documentation to get simple things working. Personally I hated Windows 3.1 with a passion every time I had to use it. The need to ‘play’ with it was what made me buy a Mac, I just want to work on the computer, not mess with the OS.
Complain all you want about Bill Gates and Microsoft, I’ll probably agree with a lot of the criticism and I do think that Windows is over priced. But Windows XP generally does make the computer very easy to use, installing software and new hardware is usually trivial and I’ve never had to use the command line to get something working.
While in Linux I seem to spend more time reading HOWTOs and Man pages or dealing with software/hardware installation problems, than I do actually using the computer. I spent quite a lot of money on computer hardware to get a fast machine that wouldn’t waste my time because of poor performance. The money spent on Windows doesn’t seem so bad, considering how many hours I’d waste dealing with frustrating and complex problems if I was using Linux.
If you wants to use an operating system using all your legacy software and don’t learn anything new, it is best you stay on Widows and PAY for it and all applications you run on top of Windows (yes, pay for all you laziness).
Don’t you just love these guys? What the hell is a ‘legacy’ application anyway? Is that one that you can’t find in Linux? Or in other words, if it’s not spported in Linux, it sucks?
So I use these ‘legacy’ applications like this …
http://www.propellerheads.se/de/products/reason/frame.html
that Linux doesn’t support, and by paying for these apps, I am being ‘punished’ because I’m lazy? Did I miss something something here?
Now, don’t get me wrong – I like Linux and understand that it is usable for some people, but you pundets who are constantly trying to shove Linux and its apps down everybody’s throat 24/7 need to realize that there are still at LOT of things that it doesn’t yet do. So, it meets your needs, great … but don’t go hurling insults at people who’s needs aren’t the same as yours.
well, I will say that I like XP as long as i is woring…………
I am realy pissed off at windows now though. why? because they use a binary NTUSER.DAT file to store all your prefrences in. so it got corupted and I spent half a day restoring from back up all my crap. this would not have been that big of a deal except taht I had a CSC projecty due the next day and had shit to get done for it.
no matter how much shit I had to go through to learn how to use Debian….nothing beats the peace of mind I get knowing my data is safe.
It makes me wonder if the author has ever tried Win XP or Mac OSX, we were told that he had dealt with Win 3.1. The type of problems he encountered almost never happen under these two OS. How I interpreted his text was: “We can have something for free that might and probably will work under certain conditions if you have time, having some knowledge is implied”.
“If you don’t want to be slave of a single vendor (M$) and if you don’t want to be a sheep, comfortable on your flock, you must try to use linux or other alternative O.S.”
Sheep? Don’t be so narrow minded. I use Windows. Not because I don’t know any better but because the applications I want to use (mostly graphics related) are available for Windows, NOT Linux. The same can be said for the hardware I find myself using. I don’t run an OS for the sake of running an OS, I run an OS to gain access to applications and hardware. As soon as the apps I want and need are available on Linux (and the drivers I need as well) I may just give Linux serious considerations.
Adam.
I use Linux because it does everything I want, and nothing I don’t. Every time I have to boot up a Windows machine I spend the first five minutes of every session knocking down shit I don’t want to use.
darius, over and over and over you stated that you are into that one program, you are sounding more like an idiot for trying to drag that program into every conversation.
By now we all know you are into music. That does not impress anyone. get a life.
If someone wants that program on linux then i’m sure someone will some day make it or that company will build a port. However today, that program does not run in linux.(linux may not be for you).
Legacy clearly means older.
however i’m sure he ment to say “hardware” instead.
It is amazing how stupid a lot of people can be….
The author simply states his/her experience with running linux on his desktop. No where does he state Linux over windows other than his sense of freedom and choices. A lot of you want to turn it into “My OS can beat up your OS” kids games.
Though I myself have always had better experiences with linux, I say kudos to the author for his/her persistance and sharing his/her thoughts.
Those 5 min that you say spend cleaning up after Win boot is offset by 5 min it takes Linux to boot 😉
darius, over and over and over you stated that you are into that one program
Well, actually … there are about a dozen others. I just link this one
And of course, you’ll notice that’s its always in response to some moron who says something stupid such as using words like ‘sheep’, ‘lazy’, or ‘stupid’ to describe Windows users. Talk about the superiority of Linux all you want, but as soon as you insult me, I’m going to respond
Every time I have to boot up a Windows machine I spend the first five minutes of every session knocking down shit I don’t want to use.
*sigh*
http://download.com.com/3000-2094-1539340.html?tag=lst-0-1
“If you don’t want to be slave of a single vendor (M$) and if you don’t want to be a sheep, comfortable on your flock, you must try to use linux or other alternative O.S.”
hmmm, roughly translated…
“If you don’t want to be a sheep, then you must follow the path of I describe to you, as set out by the prophet Stallman and his disciples”
errr… following a path prescribed by others so you can be a part of their club (in this case, the United Front for emancipation from the Microsoft Empire) isn’t that being a sheep???
If you don’t want to be a sheep… do whatever the hell you want to do.
The author should have tried Xandros or SuSE. He would have found the experience much better. Red Hat has always said they are targeting the Enterprise and not the Desktop.
I have heard you make a number of very positive commnets about linux in other posts and bust on the OS for other things. I understand.
Linux and Mac and Windows XP evangelists have to all realize on thing. A homogenous server environment or workstation environmnet is both a bad idea. There is no one true OS to rule them all and in the dark bind them.
Why do I use Linux?
1. I don’t like Windows. It is not about me hating Microsoft really. Honestly, I do not like some of their business practices but I am not religious about my distaste in this regard. I just do not like the Windows way of doing things.
2. I like choice. I like having literally dozens of window managers and two major and one minor desktop environment to choose from. Other people see it as confusing but I find it liberating.
3. In the same vein, I like the applications. Where other people say the apps are incomplete and featureless I find the applications like Gnumeric, Evolution, and even Abiword (at least the 2.0 beta) to be streamlined, tight, well laid out and unbloated.
4. I like Unix. I am a System Administrator. I am a Software Configuration Manager for projects that all run on Unix. We have front-end to one of our apps that runs in Windows and that is it. The rest of the entire organization tech-wise is Unix based.
5. I find that is more productive for me to do my workstation living in the same type of environment where I do most of my core work. In other words, I want a unix-like workstation environment. Yes, I have tried Cygwin, Mkshell, and other Unix on NT tools. They are not even the same. I have honestly tried. I developed some simple backend scripts using Mkshell and found the overall experience to be a much bigger compromise overall than living in Linux.
How many people are out there like me? More than most folks think. Unix programmers, network administrators, Unix database administrators, Unix System Administrators are possible markets for Linux on the desktop. I can hear the cries of the people screaming about what a tiny market this is. I say to them bull. It is a market that has kept companies like Exceed alive for years. Big companies like Sun have made workstation machines for this market. I have seen companies where people kept two machines around — one unix workstation and one x86 box. This is a waste that can be eliminated.
The place I work at right now is the second place where linux workstations are being used actively.
Hold on though, does this mean that Darius is in a situation where linux fills all of his needs?
No.
Does this translate into Linux is worthless on the desktop?
No.
Just because Unix professionals are more comfortable and productive on linux workstations does it mean that the rest of the world should follow suit?
No.
One solution does not fit all. If Darius does not like Linux for a fulltime desktop solution then he has his reasons. I like the applications available in linux and I have used the OS for seven years so installing and tweaking out a brand new system might take me 2.5 hours if I stretch it. My situation does not apply to everyone else and I do not try to make it apply to everyone else.
Why other people do is beyond me.
I don’t understand how some Linux advocates have such hatred for Windows, and champion Apple.
Apple bundles their OS with all the computers they sell. Apple has bought many technologies and integrated them into the OS.
The anger MS would cause if they decided to lock people in with certain hardware only MS sold, I can’t fathom the results, yet people applaud Apple for doing this.
I’m not saying any OS is better, worse, whatever… just if you’re going to criticize a company for the tactics it uses, be consistent in comparing other companies the same way. I here all these MS stole the GUI concept from Apple… no one mentions Xerox in the equation.
That’s it. Happy computing
I’ve never tried Linux and never will
Then, of course, you will understand when I simply disregard any opinions you might have on the subject.
And my dad can beat up your dad! Captain Picard is waaaay cooler than Captain Kirk! Chocolate is far superior to vanilla! And no girls allowed–they have cooties!!
For those that complain that Linux doesn’t have the applications that you want to use, just be aware that your continued use of windows makes YOU a part of the problem. So, when you complain that linux doesn’t have the applications you want, you can point a big part of the blame on yourself because the developers will only port their software if there is a sufficient linux market, and if you don’t use linux at all, then the developers have less of a reason to port their software. If you started dual-booting, and making sure that the developers of the windows only applications you like to use know what platform you prefer, you can be part of the solution.
>>
Windows XP generally does make the computer very easy to use, installing software and new hardware is usually trivial
>>
And just how freaking old is WinXP? How many years did it take Microsoft to get there, or am I the only person who has spent days just trying to get windows to work with some hardware? Linux is doing fine and growing by the day. Things ain’t perfect, but you would have to be totally stupid not to appreciate the progress that is being made, and how important it is to have a windows alternative.
do you have anything to back yourself up with?
anyway. I dont like windows, not because it doenst work but because it is expensive and it is a monopoly. I hope Linux can surpass windows in usability someday, its just not today. oh, I think IE is far far worse than windows.
on another note… anyone like pie?
First off, Thanks! I am a GREAT business man. Daddy taught me everything. I am not the richest man in the world for nothing: I had all sorts of blue blood running through these veins of mine, and thanks to tons of cash to start I built an empire!
Truth be told, I have NEVER programmed in my life. I let others do and then buy those results forcefully.
Hey its a livin.
Thirdly,
We all need to keep up stories like this one: Newbs can install linux if they try try try hard, but ultimately it turns out harder then they expected and not worth leaving the glory of Windows (and all that DOJ spyware we are sniffing your lifestyles with).
Keep the good work!! Stories like this make my monopoly stronger!!
I am not a big fan of your monopolistic majesty; but care leave your autograph on the line below?
__________________________________
In the article he said he had success with Linux but some of you are inferring that he didn’t.
maybe because you think of success in your way instead of the way he did.
Linux is successful on the desktop according to your interpretation of succesful, is not a very good measure.
It’s not only applications but good drivers. I have yet to get my, supposedly supported, scanner to work properly under Linux. It is recognized, it makes noise, but I get no results. And then there’s the old standby, tablet support. Mediocre at best.
I don’t want to dual boot. Why should I restart my machine to switch to a different OS when I can do everything I need in Win2k without rebooting? That does not mean I love Win2k it just means that Linux is not good enough to make me want to waste my time rebooting every time I decide to run a Windows graphics app (and that’s often, like always basically).
Adam.
Or in other words, if it’s not spported in Linux, it sucks?
So I use these ‘legacy’ applications like this …
http://www.propellerheads.se/de/products/reason/frame.html
that Linux doesn’t support
I know it is just semantics, but the phrase “linux doesn’t support” in reference to software really irks me. It is statement that is what we call “ass-backwards” where I come from. Saying “linux doesn’t support X” implies a fault or weakness on the part of linux developers. In actuality this weakness or fault (if one exists in this situation) is on the fault of the software’s developer.
I am not trying to say all developers should make linux version of their software. It is a free country, they can make what they want. But to imply that linux isn’t good because the guys at Propellerheads didn’t feel like or were incapable of producing a linux version is ludicrous.
It should also be noted that with most windows only software there is either a decent linux alternative or at least the possiblity of running it under wine, winex, or crossover. This is more effort than you will see on the Windows side of things. Sure, there cygwin, but as you are mostly all probably aware cygwin is a Redhat a project. It comes from the linux community. You can bet MS wasn’t the backing party of that one.
My main point is that when you say “linux doesn’t support my program” you are insulting linux. This may or may not be intentional, but either way, it is untrue and misleading to those less knowledgable about such matters.
don’t understand how some Linux advocates have such hatred for Windows, and champion Apple.
You are right to point out the disparity. I guess most of the linux community follow the “my enemy’s enemy is my friend” philosophy. I do it myself sometimes.
However, it isn’t that way across the board. For instance, I am not a big fan of Apple. That isn’t to say I don’t like OSX. I do. Heck, I even like XP most of the time (just not as much as linux). But I see Apple do plenty of things I don’t appreciate. They give back to the open source community more than MS ever will, yet I still never feel like it is enough when I see all they have gained from it. OSX is built on a solid base of open source technology. Yet they didn’t have to give anything back to get it (go ahead and flame me, but I feel the BSD license invites such corporate leeching). Sure they have given improvements to khtml, and thank you very much for that Apple, but I don’t feel they have given as much as they’ve gained. I don’t feel like linux or the BSDs compete with apple at all (someday they may, I suppose) so it is probably corporately smarter not to give back anything they don’t legally have to. That won’t stop me from holding it against them.
I had an experience similar to the author 4 years ago using Red Hat 5.1, although not so severe in getting things to work. Prior to that I was using Win 3.1. Taking into consideration all the time and effort getting 3.1 to work, the time involved in learning a quality OS was minimal. It took me 3 weeks of dual booting to let Win go. There isn’t a file type I can’t run on my linux machine that runs on Win, including AutoCad .dwg files. Today I have a hassle free system that allows me to do what I need to do without all the Win BS.
First of all, agree with you on the Linux and supported thing – bad choice of words, I admit
As for your last post …
OSX is built on a solid base of open source technology. Yet they didn’t have to give anything back to get it (go ahead and flame me, but I feel the BSD license invites such corporate leeching).
Personally, I think this is a good thing. I say let the OSS community build all the engines/protocols and codecs, and let the commercial companies worry about the user interfaces – each group seems really good at their respective tasks, while completely sucking at the other
At least this way, we know that nobody would control the file formats.
There isn’t a file type I can’t run on my linux machine that runs on Win
Ok then, how do your run .mdb (MS Access) files in Linux? I’m not trolling here – I genuinely want to know
And to dwilson, if you think my ‘not supported in Linux’ comment is misleading, what do you call this guy’s comments? Basically, what he’s saying is that any file format for any Windows application can be open/saved in Linux. Of course, I guess it’s all a question of semantic, right?
http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/MySQL/ODBC
I hope I can match Darius’
http://www.propellerheads.se/de/products/reason/frame.html
with something like this
http://beast.gtk.org/
This guy is an idiot. You DO NOT need to re-install several times to just get a sound card working… geez. Every hear of libraries? C? Compiling code? Read the f**ckin docs, man.
I have said to many people time and time again that the problem with ALL Linux distros is hardware support.
You cannot be expected to include support for every piece of hardware in the kernel or in the install process. Linux desperately needs a standardised,simple way to install drivers for hardware and it needs wide 3rd party support. Without massive numbers of vendors supplying drivers for Linux it just will not gain widespread acceptance. Just installing the OS and saying “hey all the hardware on my 1 year old system was detected” is not good enough. What happens in 12 months time when you add new hardware and its not supported?
This is why Linux is not ready for the desktop-plain and simple
And sadly the Linux Zeals crawls up the ditch… suddenly Linux isn’t so good, and XP is seriously fine, just that all our beautiful Linux zeals are actually politicians rather than computer enthusiasts.
Well good luck Linux world, we’ll see you in the holy B* land later on (BSD/BeOS)
Osnews staff u seem to bash linux users for jumping onto any ms related article and saying that we shouldnt be bashing it but its fine for windows users to jump onto any linux article and start trolling. Just keep that in mind.
And to the author of the article i congratulate you on sticking with it and actually getting it done. And Best of luck with it. I havent heard of so many problems on modern distros till this post but its all good shows you one thing though. How even at the worst situations there is usually a way through. Take into account many people that install linux encouter a problem then work out a solution usually post about it. Which there is no better technical support method for.
Darius please stop with your comments.
So the bsd staff spend months even years developing protocols and engines. For a company like microsoft to take the code stick it into their os and say nothing the whole of windows ip stack comes from bsd aswell ( how many windows users actually know the source of it ? )
Also all it takes for a company like microsoft is to take the code modify it put in some ms only code that wont allow it to work with any other company and there u have it closed off protocol take for example xml supported file format for upcoming ms office. Done in such a way as to blatently close it off and make decoding by third parties near impossible way to go microsoft. Only way to establish a monopoly (which micorosft has been found guilty for in both america and france) is to close off file formats and only allow that file format to run on your specific operating system amasing how hard linux tries to keep open interoperability between itself and windows and how hard microsoft works to break that interopability to stop any competition.
Bill. NO need for the harsh comment but it is true the author is looking at a linux problem how you would a windows problem. The only solution in windows is reinstall in linux read up about it and sort it out without reinstall 😀
Maybe he is not an idiot but instead just learning just like the same way all of us do.
Well I have one that works well…….and it takes a longer time for me to make Linux work than any other OS I ahve used and I haved used several.
Still Linux is cool but there are still problems that need to be addressed. Wanna know what problems? Listen to the newbies, until Linux is easy enough to be used (things like installing software and such and not to admin) by newbies it is still very much a geek plaything.
The next version of Crossover office will support Access 2000. The software is in beta stage right now, and their holding off because of some difficulties that wine has with the threading system on newer distros like Red Hat 9 and Mandrake 9.1, which they need to solve before releasing.
When it is released though I think it will mark a big step towards linux being a credible alternative in a business enviroments that relly heavily on access.
Oh and on the same subject it will also support most versions of photoshop, so that’s another “crucial app” that will be able to run under linux.
Thats two of the most listed reasons for not moving to linux eliminated. Good work from Codeweavers and all involved with the wine project.
you seemed to have picked the worst possible system to do your testing.i have installed redhat and mandrake on many machines without any trouble at all. your experience sounds like a worst-case scenario.
Ok then, how do your run .mdb (MS Access) files in Linux? I’m not trolling here – I genuinely want to know
People are working on it. http://mdbtools.sourceforge.net/
This looks like an interesting project. There are tons of small VB programs out there that uses Access as a backend(ouch). wxPython + mdbtools/MS Access could be interesting.
In fact, i’m going to read the HACKING guide and start debugging it. Hopefully, I can start contributing within a year.
If MS Access is your itch, then why don’t you scratch it.
Ahh fuck it,who am I kidding. Scratch the last comment.
Forget your admiration of famous people, admire yourself for not giving up. If there is anyone who will be successful it will be you, the author. Persistence is what brings you succuss in life. As Linus always says…
“The Linux philosophy is to laugh in face of danger. Oops. Wrong one. ‘Do it yourself.’ That’s it.”
Congatulations on the success from all your hardware. I think that the linux experience depends very much on the hardware you have
When you look at it…
Mac = Homogenous Hardware, Homogenous Software – this is easiest for developers and users to deal with….
Windows = Hetrogenous Hardware, Homogenous Software – This has caused a lot of problems in the past… Developers had to change there way of thinking.. Reliance on Software libraries rather than actual hardware eg DirectX… Developers have gotten mainly used to dealing with this but it took time.
Linux = Hetrogenous Hardware, Hetrogenous Software…. This will take longer for developers to figure out how to properly deal with… The process will probably happen through some type of standardisation – what is yet to be seen.
Yeah, you’re right. Bill -is- a good businessman. He has deep pockets and knows who to buy off, and has gotten away with breaking at least a few of some of the laws related to business in his country; still netting billions on paper despite this fact. His company abuses the law and its customers at every turn, drops horrendous licensing schemes on businesses that are locked into their investments in Windows and the like..
Thanks for making me see the light Eugenia. He really is a wonderful businessman. I mean really, how fucking stupid are you anyway?
However, it isn’t that way across the board. For instance, I am not a big fan of Apple. That isn’t to say I don’t like OSX. I do. Heck, I even like XP most of the time (just not as much as linux). But I see Apple do plenty of things I don’t appreciate. They give back to the open source community more than MS ever will, yet I still never feel like it is enough when I see all they have gained from it. OSX is built on a solid base of open source technology. Yet they didn’t have to give anything back to get it (go ahead and flame me, but I feel the BSD license invites such corporate leeching). Sure they have given improvements to khtml, and thank you very much for that Apple, but I don’t feel they have given as much as they’ve gained.
Several full-time Apple employees have commit access to FreeBSD CVS. That should tell you something.
If Joe Sixpack and his big-boned girlfriend Velvet Elvis want to spend their tax refund on a PC they can go to Walmart’s web page and pick from two pages of pre-installed Linux boxes.
I have to say I have no problems that I have heard here, my systems just work with Linux, even my Presario with a no-name sound card works under SuSE Linux, everyone keeps trying to get Dead Rat errr I mean Red Hat to work. It doesnt, Give SuSE a try even though you may have to pay, the cost is minimal compared to the peice of mind that you will get knowing that most of your hardware will mostly just work and Im not saying all but I have a Compaq Presario 700 mhz AMD Duron that works, A Dell Inspiron Laptop and a Compaq Presario AMD Athlon XP all just work, I even have a POS CompUSA Laptop thjat just works with SuSE and I couldnt even get Root Hack errr I mean Red Hat to even boot on that machine, Debian and Slack wouldnt boot either. Only SuSE.
Well, I’ld guess that Bill Gates has earned more money than you, so that makes him a better businessman than you, not so?
Knowing who to buy out and buy off, getting away with skirting business laws, netting billions sound like very important business skills. Abusing customers is probably just a fun bonus.
Note that Eugenia never said that he was nice, merely that he was good in business.
And I must tell you how much I admire you for being so brave as to insult people from behind a keyboard from thousands of miles away. You are truly an inspiration. Save that message to show to your children, if you ever have any (doubtfull).
I made my Armada 7350MT P166MMX run RedHat 8 with _no problem_. Yes, the sound wasn’t auto-detected, but I’m smart enough to type “modprobe sb” if I need it. Please stop the damn RedHat bashing – I can recount some horrifying issues with SuSE 7 I had yesterday that would make you cringe.
SuSE 8.2 is a good distribution, but I agree with Eugenia on this one: RedHat 9 is better, and if you install apt-rpm, totally thrashes it while being totally free (both in speech and beer terms). And while you may or may not find this offensive, I prefer to buy American if given the choice between two different but roughly equal products. I don’t get this choice very often, but it makes me feel good to support RedHat.
As for the Windows vs. Linux thing: I agree that lack of software shouldn’t count as a strike _against_ Linux, but should be included in recommendations for or against switching. That is to say, RH9 might get a 8/10 in a review, but the end result might still say “if you need Dreamweaver or Photoshop, don’t switch”.
Also, newer Linux distributions handle hardware much better than they used to. There are still some weak spots (CF card readers aren’t auto-detected and added to fstab, scanner support is spotty in general), but Windows has some problems, too.
I personally think that we’ll see a tipping point when Photoshop is released for Linux. I _don’t_ think that Crossover Office is really the solution – Linux needs to stand on its own for people to take it seriously.
-Erwos
Crossover and wine may not be an ideal solution but it is quickly becoming a very real solution. Say six months down the road a new version of Xandros comes out that includes the new crossover office. You’d have a system with excellent hardware detection that you could drop into any windows network without configuration and can run MS Office in it’s entirity including Access and apps like photoshop and maybe even dreamweaver as well.
If a system can run the software that business need and can do so without a lot of configuration hassle, then it can only be good thing for linux.
He tried both Rh and M
It seems a little peculiar that there is not some form of money back guarantee. Perhaps by way of posting the various combinations of hardware that the commercial distributor has tested; if your computer meets one of these combos then either the OS AND all specified apps run or you can get a refund.
The reviewer of ELX said that it was remarkable that all the apps worked.
I would say that it was unique; if true.
I think it is obviously misleading to say “All file formats can be opened and saved using linux (currently).” But I would think that is misleading when talking about any operating system. Something more fair would be, “All file formats that I have come across, I have been able to open using a linux application.”
This is true for me, but I am sure for some people it isn’t. It is going to depend on who you are exchanging docs with. A good idea with any organization is to choose a standard that everyone will be able to open.
Original “Linux will be read for the desktop once we have a control panel for the Nvidia cards and once these drivers have the same features as the windows ones…”
Answer “What features would those be? Besides DirectX I am pretty sure I can do anything with my card under linux I can under windows.”
One thing that I am missing is screen rotation and better antialiasing for TFT
I went with Linux 8 months ago. I run 24X7 with no hardware or software problems and the installation was a snap. I still consider myself a newbie at it, but I think its an easy OS to learn. I was kind of an easy sale though…I never liked Windows…I got tired of rebooting all the time. Linux suits my needs better.
XP is good for games. Linux is good for intelligent use.
I can drive a lot of different vehicles, but to avoid crashes , and get to where I want to go on time, I have to apply a lot of intelligence, unless I don’t care and travel by taxi or bus.
The same goes for computing. If I dont care about being productive or cost effective, then I’d go with MicroShaft and learn about 20 different applications all of which I have to be there to use.
Linux is pretty new compared with MicroShaft but it does provide a much higher level interface where automation and interaction between applications can be achieved with my intervention.
The fact that it can be my slave, rather than I’m a slave to it, makes it better value.
It really depends on what you plan on doing on your box.
Forget about Java dev. Eclipse is 2x slower on linux than on WinXP. I get more crashes and configuration issues on Mandrake 9.1 than on WinXP…
Linux and Windows (XP/2K/NT/SE/ME/Etc) has a tendency to serve different needs.
Windows still has slightly better tools for a workstation, but linux is far better for a server solution, from what I have experienced.
I also happen to use Linux as a workstation. Slackware actually. KDE, OpenOffice, Gimp, Netscape, Konquerer, and various other tools work fine for my needs. I have a fully integrated C/C++ development tool, fully integrated web authoring tools, and all the IRC/CHAT interfaces you can shake a stick at. There’s CAD software, even compatable with AutoCad, that you can get for linux, and pretty much anything you need, _IF_ you take the time to look for it.
And best of all, I can open up MULTIPLE INSTANCES of all of these applications, on my workstation and still be productive and _NOT CRASH_.
And if it does, with reisserfs, a journalized filesystem, it reboots in under 30 seconds, and I’m back in the GUI.
Linux, until companies make software for it, won’t have the
ease of pre-packaged shrinkwrap like windows. That is one of the few black-eyes Linux has.
I’m sorry for saying this, but in my years of experience, I have yet to see a Windows solution stable enough to run more than a few highly intensive applications at the same time, clock the CPU, and have the box responsive or even stable. Maybe you have. If you have, then maybe your lucky, or perhapse you’ve had more experience than my 5+ years of NT/2K administration experience.
I just have found that Unix (And Linux) as a whole tends to do what I want, and my 1+ year of uptime (on a brutally used box) shows to me it’s more stable. And with the built-in addition to packet filtering/firewall, it tends to be much more secure.
But like any other OS, it takes understanding of how it works to make it work well. This is true even for XP.
Unfortunately with XP or other Window derivitives, a lot of what it does is behind the scenes and hard to find.
Until that changes, I’ll always find windows frustrating for advanced usage. Again, if you don’t, all the power to you.
I appreciate the authors commentary and compliment him on giving Linux a try. You might want to try BSD and some other OS’s as well. They’re fairly competitive.
I have NEVER known or seen anyone have so much trouble installing a recent version of GNU/Linux. Now would him being a BG fan have something to do with this? I believe he is just trying to propagate the myth that Linux is hard to install with the intent of scaring people away. It’s NOT! It’s easier to install than XP BY FAR! I’d like to see some REAL stories here not a Bill Gates fan.
Doug P
RH 8 may have issues with nForce, but RH 9 installed without any problems on my nForce system, with X Windows and all…
5 Minutes??? You clearly have issues dude… Linux is not supposed to take that long to boot unless you went out of your way to make it so.
I have more experience with SuSE than Red Hat or Mandrake, but the author’s tales sound typical. Generally, I’ve found SuSE excellent at recognizing hardware, but once in a while, if it doesn’t recognize something, getting it to work can be a challenge.
I would like to point out, though, that what these “installation experience” articles always miss is that, unlike Windows, once you do get something to work in Linux, it continues to work. (We’ve got 2 Linux boxes in the office that haven’t been rebooted for months.) That’s why, yes, it is worth the “hassle” of the initial setup, as opposed to buying a pre-configured Windows system and crossing your fingers every time you install some new hardware or software.
This is like the damn Ford vs Chevy debate, you have your hardcore zealots that will fight tooth and nail for their position without giving the other side one millimeter of room. Personally I find that ANYONE telling me which OS to run is an insult to me, blah blah blah licensing issues, blah blah blah, open source, blah blah blah, last time I checked this was America, and one of our great freedoms is freedom of choice. If I want to run XP why does anyone feel they have the right to say that I am just a sheep following Bill Gates? I personally have multiple systems, each running different OS’s (ie Linux (multiple distros), Win2k, Win XP), so does that mean I am just confused? How about all the Linux zealots that are fed up with high prices of Microsoft go out and all buy Geo Metros because they are more cost efficient than say a Mercedes (and in no way is this a comparison of Linux to Windows with regards to low quality vs high quality so don’t even try to flame as it will just show your ignorance) If Microsoft has such a monopoly (and please do pull out a websters for this one and look up the word monopoly) why are there so many OS’s around? Last time I checked monopoly meant barring complete access to a certain market. Not that I agree with MS’s business practices, but just offering an alternative perspective. I think everyone just needs to lighten up and let the user choose which OS they would LIKE to run, not which one they SHOULD run according to an OPINION. I guess that was more than 2 cents, but oh well.
if you want to try a good dist with very easy program installation, try Gentoo linux, their portage is far better then any rpm, and even apt-get, it auto calculate dependencies and install it too, much easier then any windows application installation…
some might say it’s hard to install Gentoo, but they have the best install documentation, so a newbie can easily install it.
Some might say it takes to much time to install, if you do a stage 1 installation it takes time, yes, but it’s worth the time having everything compiled for your system. If you don’t wanna spend 2 days installing your OS, use a stage 3 installation (btw, you don’t have to sit with the puter while it compiles).
installing nvidia drivers is as easy as typing emerge nvidia_kernel emerge nvidia_glx or something like that.. and that’s the way all installation is done.
smooth and easy
just my 2 cents
// Curse
Hi,
You say that at work you’ve no option for the OS, since you’re working with large commercial databases. Well, me too. Oracle not to name it. And on the server side Linux rocks, as pointed out by your reference.
Plus the wonderful support and integration provided nowadays by Distros like SuSE.
And the little cherry on the cake for the developer’s out there’s TORA. If you’re looking for a zero-cost alternative (on Linux) to TOAD, that’s the way to go if you’re doing SQL development.
My 2 Eurocents.