Home > Debian > Libranet 2.8 Released Libranet 2.8 Released Submitted by XYZ 2003-05-01 Debian 58 Comments The Debian-based Libranet 2.8 is finaly released. Order & download, read the feature-set or an intro. About The Author Eugenia Loli Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker. Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli 58 Comments 2003-05-01 5:44 pm wish this was free 2003-05-01 5:52 pm Why does it have to be free for download? Do you think these people @ Libranet do their testings out of the love of their hearts? They spend valuable time with it. Giving it for free is not an option for them. And they don’t have the commercial force Red Hat has towards big business to only charge for support. Hence, you gotta buy if you want it. Most things in this planet are not free either. So why would Libranet should be free by default? Just because it’s based on Linux? Sorry, that ain’t good enough reason. 2003-05-01 5:55 pm Still, all the other ones are free. Yay for them, theirs isn’t. Maybe it’s a better product. Still, I don’t wanna pay either. *shrug*. 2003-05-01 5:59 pm There’s always their free 2.0 release, you can upgrade to Sid. 2003-05-01 5:59 pm SuSE ain’t free. Lindows ain’t free. Yoper ain’t free. Heck, OpenBSD doesn’t offer ISOs either. Doesn’t HAVE to be free. It is their choice to not offer it for free, and they have the right to choose. So, where’s the problem? If someone doesn’t want to buy it, he/she doesn’t buy it. Same goes for Windows or Mac OSes. The fact that Libranet is based on GNU/Linux is only an implementation detail. You don’t judge a TV because of the brand of phosphorus or internal transistors it’s using, you are judging it because of its feature-set and quality of picture (and price). Same goes for any product. Including OSes. 2003-05-01 6:01 pm If you don’t think the service provided by Libranet is worth it, don’t buy it. Install Debian. By the way, Libranet offers a 30 days money back (minus 5$). Looks completely fair to me. Libranet works hard to provide a service, if you like it, you pay for it. 2003-05-01 6:02 pm but Lycoris is free. 2003-05-01 6:02 pm Exactly . The guy was only pointing out that the market it’s in makes the product less appealing. I think it was just all your linux being captain obvious for a day. No need for explainations. 2003-05-01 6:07 pm Truthfully speaking, I don’t want to pay, and won’t either. But, $65 isn’t asking for too much. Now, it would be nice to be able to test it out, to make sure you want to buy it. I m ean, if you are an existing Linux user, then you probably won’t have a tough time making a go of it. But if you are new, and you buy it, then decide that ‘linux isn’t ready for you yet’ or ‘it really looks like crap (to you)’, you’re out some money. 2003-05-01 6:07 pm Can you even use this? It seems like the include it in their distro? Napster is dead. Can someone please give an answer. Thanks. 2003-05-01 6:09 pm Please read the bottom of the order page. They guarantee your money back if you are not satisfied. So the “I’d like to try it before paying” argument does not hold! 2003-05-01 6:12 pm Two days ago I saw Mandrake Linux for sale for $79.99 Canadian, next to Windows XP Pro. $449 CDN. OS X Jaguar was only $129 CDN, I think. I think that the next time I hear someone say “But linux is free!” I’m going to bitchslap them. The old addage still holds true; Linux is only free if your time has no value. I use FreeBSD. 2003-05-01 6:13 pm Yep SuSE ain’t free. I spent $39.99 for 8.2 on a Friday. So unimpressed I spent another $39.99 for Redhat 9 on Sunday. Most things in life aren’t free, but then again most things you buy can be returned if you aren’t satisfied with it. Not software. 2003-05-01 6:13 pm Libranet is an excellent distibution, really well assembled and tested. Yes, it costs money, but it is very easy to install and it has an excellent stability. It also gives you an opportunity to try different window managers without a hassle. It is a good introduction to Linux world as well. I would consider it one of the best. 2003-05-01 6:18 pm Sure it’s GPL, you can have the source code if you want. But you’ll have to pay me to give it to you. That was an over dramatization of it, I’m sorry. Fact remains that the money we’re paying is not for the product itself, but the means of getting it. To me it seems a little sneaky, and just goes to show that just because it’s open-source, doesn’t mean you can’t make money off of it. An advantage for groups that put out distros, but not so easy for single application developers. In case my opinion sounds too vague: even though I’m not too happy with the idea, I’m still glad they can make some money that they do deserve. 2003-05-01 6:20 pm Try to return a car in the first 30 days! Good luck! In the US, you can indeed return many things. It is not true in many others country (France for example). By the way, Libranet guarantee your money back which is better than most other software companies. 2003-05-01 6:23 pm My friend got their free version and installed it on his machine, it works well, he likes it, and i like that it’s based on debian so when he needs help i’m not lost on it. He quickly learned the wonders of apt, and now spends most of his time in libranet. I’m all for linux distros charging money, they have the right to, and i think they should. It’d be nice if they were all priced the same though. 2003-05-01 6:28 pm your comment is spot on, but the logic is faulty. “you can have the source code if you want. But you’ll have to pay me to give it to you.” Uh….that’s perfectly within the GPL. And it’s not a dramatization, it’s truth. GPL doesn’t require that developers hand you a product for free, it means they have to allow you to be free to control it with the source. Want the source? Go buy it. Being an open source citizen isn’t about being a freeloader, it’s about having control of your own software. Frankly, you’re coming off as more of the former. 2003-05-01 6:57 pm “Try to return a car in the first 30 days! Good luck!” Well I’d hope you wouldn’t be so foolish as to purchase a car without having test driven it. Most car dealers in the US will even let you take a car home for a couple of days to put it thru its paces. I frankly, wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for a refund from Libranet if you needed to return thier software. 2003-05-01 6:58 pm you people are too funny… i guess i expected everyone to start ranting how i complained that i wanted it to be free… as someone stated b4, i was simply stating the obvious. i like to try different distros, and i dont wanna pay $40+ every time i just wanna try something out… yah i can dl 2.0 for free, but its not the same… i can dl and try redhat and mandrake and debian etc… all for free and try them out. i wanna try xandros out too but i dont wanna pay for that either without trying it first. I’m too lazy to install gentoo, it takes too damn long and i dont have that much time. i know that people work hard on these distros and ask money for them. hey i dont blame them. but i started using linux because it was free, im never going to pay for a distro. otherwise, i’ll just continue using windows, which i never paid for either. 2003-05-01 6:59 pm they seem to have cancelled the Essential download program. While Libranet isn’t Lindows, the money issue turns me off. Also: They can’t offer it for free, because they include StarOffice. I had my Linux upbringing on Libranet, but now I see that it’s not all that. The Debian-basedness is nice, but they have a whole lot of Redhat-esque nonstandard settings, which is why I switched to a “purer” debian. For those who care about these things, their installer wasn’t graphical, last time I checked. 2003-05-01 6:59 pm I agree with the guy above. If you wish to try you should not have to buy. I think if they made something that somehow expired after 30 days it’d be cool. Wonder how easy that’d be. 2003-05-01 7:04 pm The value added in Libranet is that for those who don’t how or aren’t inclined, they update Debian Standard without compromising it’s famed stability. Also they pack a lot of good programs into only 2 cds. In this they may occupy the sweet spot between simplicity and too many packages. Adminemenu centralizes and simplifies a wide range of system tasks from cups printing, fonts all the way through to kernel compiles. This time out they have a graphical installer which may entice many a would be Debian wannabe. They offer free pre-purchase hardware support which means before you even buy you can email them the details of your setup and they will tell you if you can expect and problems _and_ what to do about them. Plus they offer up and running support which means that if you have problems trying to install you will receive support until you do ( get it running). Also this support is not infrequently from the two head honchos themselves. They have enthusiastic and freindly user support in their mailing list and online forums. As to try before you buy, they offer 2.0 for free d/l and 2.7 for 25.00. Besides by poking around their website reading their forums, googling for reviews on osn, slashdot, ( actually for any Distro just go to Distrowatch and you get links to all the reviews) you really will find out enough so you get a reasonable idea of what it is all about. You certainly find out if it is a smeller. Because it is Debian you can use apt or the excellent Synaptic to update as newer packages come about, and unlike in Xandros you don’t break the customizations. Myself , I use Debian straight up, but I have a soft spot for Libranet, as they were my 2nd Distro. I recommend them as “Debian made Easy” and a great introduction to both Debian and Linux itself. 2003-05-01 7:05 pm i did not know libranet deviated from debian’s default settings… i personally really like how debian organizes it’s software, putting everything neatly in /etc/ and /usr for me to find everytime i apt-get <packagename> i also like how deb packages have some config utils when you install something… asking you for some settings and asking if you want to override your previous config files, and if it does, it usually backs them up. question: does gentoo have this? or is it whenever i emerge <packagename> does it just install the software without ever asking me anything… another gentoo question: if i was too update some packages i had installed, do i need to have the same USE variables set when i installed the package the first time? i can see where this can be a problem when you have multiple packages which require certain USE variables to be on and off. 2003-05-01 7:17 pm I would answer your the two gentoo questions you asked in a thread about Libranet, but I am off to the Gentoo forum to point out that Gentoo takes a long time to compile and then ask them a couple questions about Libranet. 2003-05-01 7:22 pm All this talk about it being free or not is boring. There are 2 reasons to buy Libranet; 1. The installer. It is basically text with a gui package selection to make selecting indivdual programs easier. The hardware detection is much better and provides options for ALSA sound drivers and nVidia drivers with no hasel. 2. Adminmenu. This is a propratiary program developed by Libranet to handle some basic administration options. (kernel recompileing, printer detection, sound card, xwindows, browser plugins, network settings, and setting up cd burners to name a few) Yes it could be better, yes you can do everything through the command line. But, a newbie will not know any of this, and just because I can use the command line dose not mean I want to. I hate playing ‘find the config file’ and Red Hat’s gui only option is usless when xwindows breaks. Also 2.8 is based on Sarge, so upgrading to Sid is much easier, or just running Sid packages. If you tried going from Woody to Sid recently, the gcc changes make it a pain. And in fews weeks 2.7 will become the free version, so people can use that. 2003-05-01 7:23 pm It never ceases to amaze me that “free software” proponents will pay good money for a product like this, yet they balk at the “Micro$oft tax” foisted upon them – even when they end up using Windoze because their “favourite” OS won’t install. I’ve been suckered into shelling out 80 bucks for Mandrake 8, and I’ve paid even more for various others in the vain hope of acquiring something more than raw pre-beta-quality software. I pity the fools who pay for Linux, when there are far better alternatives out there. PS OpenBSD 3.3 is out today, free on FTP! 2003-05-01 7:34 pm thank you for your sarcasm, i simply asked those gentoo questions here because: (1) through my thought process, those questions popped up and i wanted to ask them right away, without going to gentoo forums, registering, then asking the questions (2) i know there are a lot of gentoo users here that may know the answers to what i was asking. 2003-05-01 7:58 pm just to point out the obvious here, qnx et al = no source, libranet=source. If you shell out the cash for a linux distribution such as libranet you also get access to the source code of the distributions, but some tools are’nt oss sadly enough. But that makes the difference for me, When I buy a shrinkwrapped distro I expect to get the sourcecode that make up the os. why? I want to tinker with it and be able to optimize it to fit my needs (i.e useless compile options ;D ) And I get the satisfaction of supporting a product I deem worthy enough of shelling out some cold hard stones for! 2003-05-01 8:11 pm Based on the way you’ve just described the GPL, I don’t see how it’s much different than other closed source licenses. I’ve heard arguements about the merits of the GPL, but the way you describe it kinda makes me feel those positive arguments are nullified. Here’s what I mean: MS will license the source code to WCE – although it’s a rather silly license policy, that has just been modified – to hardware manufacturers so that they can customize the OS to fit their hardware. True, it’s not really open source, but it goes along with the idea of “if you want the source, you have to buy it.” I’ve licensed commercial code libraries which grants me the freedom to modify the code for my own purposes but it restricts me from redistributing it again. My understanding is that’s where the GPL differs, the developer is allow to redistribute his software and source code changes. If I’m branded as a free loader, so be it, that’s the main attraction most Linux newbies like myself came here for. It is my fault for never taking the time to read and understand the GPL license. To me it just seems to defeat to point of free software and open source. I’m aware that there is a differnece between free softare and open source software. Apparently just because it’s open source doesn’t mean I’ll get it for free. If Libranet would just let people download the ISOs for free and find a sponsor to help host the ISOs, then just put up a “tip jar” I’m sure people would donate money, as would developers donate their time and even code. Please don’t get the impression that I’m just a freeloader. I have purchased Libranet 2.7 even though I can’t really use it and I have purchased various other distros even when a free download was available. 2003-05-01 8:35 pm Unfortunately the 2.0 release has been missing from the downloads page for sometime now. And despite what everyone in the Libranet forums said it does not appear that 2.7 will be made available for free download now that 2.8 has shipped. 2003-05-01 8:48 pm ftp://ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/libranet/ 2003-05-01 8:59 pm Perhaps you misunderstood – “Buying the source” is a bad phrase. The GPL requires that you provide the source with the binaries. You can’t sell the source for a ridiculous sum. If MS licenses were like the GPL, you’d be eligible for the source when you bought XP Home for 99 bucks. As for freeloading – that’s also a touchy term. Most Linux distros are offered for free, and that’s fine. But you can’t complain because a company chooses to exercise their rights under the GPL and reserve their source and binaries for those who compensate them. That’s all. 2003-05-01 9:05 pm Two days ago I saw Mandrake Linux for sale for $79.99 Canadian, next to Windows XP Pro. $449 CDN. Yeah ok, but how much of the damn OS did Mandrake actually write? Like NONE of it? AFAIK, they put a distro together, slapped on some GUI frontends for basic tasks, built a Galaxy theme, and slapped an $80 (Canadian) price tag on it. So if Mandrake is charging $80 Canadian for an OS they didn’t write, I’d say $450 for WinXP Pro is reasonable. As for being able to ‘try’ Libranet, just keep an eye out for alt.binaries.warez.linux … I’m sure it’ll show up soon, if it’s not there already. 2003-05-01 9:42 pm ” So if Mandrake is charging $80 Canadian for an OS they didn’t write, I’d say $450 for WinXP Pro is reasonable. As for being able to ‘try’ Libranet, just keep an eye out for alt.binaries.warez.linux … I’m sure it’ll show up soon, if it’s not there already.” Well, while they are cruising the warez groups maybe those who want to try WinXp Pro for free first rather than shell out 450 should also just keep an eye out for it there. Both would be equally illegal. 2003-05-01 9:46 pm Well, while they are cruising the warez groups maybe those who want to try WinXp Pro for free first rather than shell out 450 should also just keep an eye out for it there. Both would be equally illegal. Well, of course you’re right. BTW: WinXP has been available for quite awhile, and the warez version is actually better because you don’t have to activate it 2003-05-01 10:01 pm Any Distro (actually, I think they are the only one ) that use Icewm as their default window manager is alright by me. Also, it seems to me that they are a good proof of concept for a friendlier desktop version of Debian. Stick to the most commonly used intel plaftform,don’t include every god damn program in existance, update the programs a little, improve the installer, make system maintenace easier, integrate rather than isolate commericial apps like Opera,etc. And yet it is not as heavily abstracted from the underlying Debian as is Xandros ( which I also like). Debian doesn’t take much notice of Libranet but anytime a regular Debian user says he wants to Bail, they would do well to suggest Libranet. PS. Greg said something about StarOffice being included but as far as I can see ( DistroWatch) this hasn’t been the case since 2.0. It is openoffice and koffice. 2003-05-01 10:17 pm Why bother with Libranet, just use Knoppix and run the install script to install on to your HD. Fully configured Debian system in a matter of minutes. Libranet have built they’re company on making debian easy to install, but there are much better installers around these days. I’ve used a lot of different distros, tried out most of the “big distros” but I’ve never had a system easier to install than debian using knoppix. One of the most under-rated, most versatile distro’s around. 2003-05-01 10:30 pm I think it is hard for people to spend $40+ dollars on a piece of software before they know they are going to like it. When you can use RedHat or Mandrake for free, and these big names don’t make all their users satisfy, it is not easy to make people spend on a rival. But of course, you can “return” it if you want. Which is nicer than some other distros. I really don’t mind buying it, or donate some money if I know I am going to like it. But when I can’t really try it, I will to think really hard before I give them my hard earned money. Maybe these are what they should think nowadays as the competition between distros is keen. 2003-05-01 11:28 pm Well.. if anyone new to Linux has had trouble installing the nvidia 3d drivers, then Libranet is great… It automagically installs the accelerated drivers during installation… that’s really great… (I know Xandros does this… but… I am not a fan of that distro…) Libranet pretty much rocks in every aspect… I’ve found it smoother, more stable, and easier to use… update/install packages etc than Mandrake and Suse… (have not tried RH) I agree that Knoppix is also pretty good, except that I am not sure if it configures and detects the hardware/drivers as well w/the hd install as w/booting from the CD… 2003-05-01 11:49 pm “Truthfully speaking, I don’t want to pay, and won’t either…..But if you are new, and you buy it, then decide that ‘linux isn’t ready for you yet’ or ‘it really looks like crap (to you)’, you’re out some money.” Do you work for free? How do you support your living? I’m wondering where theese “Linux should be free” – guys are coming from. Googoo land? United States of Stallman? C’mon, get real, mate!!! 2003-05-02 12:02 am Do you work for free? How do you support your living? I’m wondering where theese “Linux should be free” – guys are coming from. Googoo land? United States of Stallman? I think it has something to do with the ‘Linux is free’ mantra being shoved down peoples’ throats for all these years. I mean, how many times have you heard “Using Linux, you can applications for free that would cost you thousands of dollars on Windoze!’ I guess once you’ve heard the ‘Linux costs $0’ thing for long enough, you really start to believe it. 2003-05-02 12:14 am This is precisely why I use MDK. They appear to be the only distro around which allow you free download easily. For instance, I looked at Suse’s download page and could not find a link to 8.2 download except a live-cd version. That is why I would rather support MDK than other distros, by buying their product after trying it. But then one can argue that that is why MDK is in bankruptcy. 2003-05-02 12:18 am you can go out to an ftp site, download all the source you want, compile it, set it up and run it for NO COST. It is free, no one shoves a particular distro down your throat, no one has a monopoly in the linux distro market. If you don’t like one distro, move to another… Now if you don’t want to build an LFS (linux from scratch), then you can pay someone else to do it. Pay Redhat, Mandrake, SuSE, Libranet, etc to build you an environment, put it on a cd or ISO and you can install it with little to no compilation of software. See the difference? I, myself, have very specific needs that a distro hasn’t yet filled, so I use gentoo, or sometimes even LFS. Yes I get it for free, but it takes me a little longer to get a system up and running, but then again, i have a life and don’t need to sit in front of my computer all the time…i just let it work and i go out, drink coffee, read a book, watch a movie…whatever. In other words, you can get linux for free, you just need to do some work for it 2003-05-02 12:31 am “I mean, how many times have you heard “Using Linux, you can applications for free that would cost you thousands of dollars on Windoze!’ I guess once you’ve heard the ‘Linux costs $0’ thing for long enough, you really start to believe it.” ….and distributors like Mandrake go broke… 2003-05-02 12:39 am >This is precisely why I use MDK. They appear to be the only distro around which allow you free download easily. That’s wildly innacurate. Many distros, including Redhat, Debian, Gentoo, Knoppix, Slackware,and Lycoris (most of the distros listed as major distributions at DistroWatch), offer free downloads of thier current CDs. 2003-05-02 12:50 am “So if Mandrake is charging $80 Canadian for an OS they didn’t write, I’d say $450 for WinXP Pro is reasonable.” Most computers are sold w/- WinXp installed for less than $2000 (Australian). BTW, you get the CD-Rom and manuals as well…. nicely bundled and you can be certain that your software, be it “AutoCad”, “Photoshop”, and what have you, runs “smoothly” on it. “But then one can argue that that is why MDK is in bankruptcy” ….. and when they are not kicking anymore you’ll have to move on trying other distros. There are hundreds of them to keep you busy. 2003-05-02 1:25 am >> That’s wildly innacurate. Many distros, including Redhat, Debian, Gentoo, Knoppix, Slackware,and Lycoris (most of the distros listed as major distributions at DistroWatch), offer free downloads of thier current CDs. I tried downloading from the RH website and the connection was extremely slow. By contrast, I could download a MDK CD in less than one hour using my broadband connection. As for Suse, I could not find 8.2 available for download on their site, except for the live-CD version. I had these three distros in mind when I said that MDK is the only one which can be downloaded easily. 2003-05-02 1:32 am If you want to download Linux iso’s (and some *bsd iso’s) wander over to http://www.linuxiso.org . There you can get isos from mirrors of people offerring the latest iso for RedHat, Mandrake, etc… No one said the ISO for SuSE was free, but you can download all the rpms, boot off of a floppy and install it…it’s not that difficult. 2003-05-02 1:33 am I thought Lycoris is only free for trial, but not actually free? I think what Microsoft is charging isn’t unreasonable. Come on, if you consider how much time and money you have to put onto an OS like that. If you consider how much you can do with Windows, it is totally worth the money. Linux on the other hand, is also priced very reasonable. MDK for $80 or so isn’t really a lot of money compared to what you get. Of course, when they offer it for free, it is a steal. And one thing good about Linux is that, if you don’t like it, or if you don’t want to pay for it, don’t bother. You can choose other distros, or choose not to use it at all. Else as for Windows, if you don’t like Microsoft Windows, you can’t choose Windows offered from another company. And I always think Windows is a great OS until they are required registrations and all kind of bad business practice. I am paying for Windows, but I don’t want to be spied on by Microsoft. 2003-05-02 2:11 am Yikes, from their screenshots, the makers of this really need to brush up on font rendering. Including KDE 3.1, GNOME 2.2, XFree 4.3 and defaulting to horrible bitmap fonts on both DEs? Criminal. 2003-05-02 2:16 am “Yeah ok, but how much of the damn OS did Mandrake actually write? Like NONE of it? AFAIK, they put a distro together, slapped on some GUI frontends for basic tasks, built a Galaxy theme, and slapped an $80 (Canadian) price tag on it.” *rolls on the floor laughing, cries his eyes out* Subscribe to the Mandrake Cooker list for a release cycle. You’ll see how much work actually goes into putting a distribution together (any distribution, I don’t mean to suggest the MDK guys do more work than the makers of other distros). It’s a HELL of a lot more work than you make it out to be in that text. 2003-05-02 2:19 am jbrown: Mandrake and SuSE box sets include the nvidia drivers, too. They’re configured at install. So if you pay for either of those like you paid for Libranet, you’d get the same nvidia driver Installation Experience. (BTW, Red Hat maybe do this too – I’m not saying they don’t, I just don’t know. I know MDK and SuSE do it.) mythought, pmbx – mandrakesoft aren’t in money trouble because they make free ISOs available, they’re in money trouble because of overambition by a bad management team during the dot.com boom. You can download SuSE free – you just can’t download SuSE *ISOs* free. You have to burn their boot floppies and do an installation over the internet. It works, I’ve done it. 2003-05-02 3:16 am This phrase really annoys me. For the moment, linux is a thing of curiosity to me – I’ve recently been trying slackware out (I downloaded 8.1 a few weeks before 9.0 was released), and learned a lot about getting usb mice working, manually configuring XF86Config… before completely breaking it when I tried to upgrade to 9.0. Do I consider Linux free? Yes. My time worthless? Perhaps, since the time spent using it is time I would otherwise be playing games or watching TV. Not every moment of our lives has to have a monetary value. Dennis 2003-05-02 4:03 am Dennis, I think you misunderstand the phrase. There is an opportunity cost for that time taken to install linux- be it walking the dog, talking to a friend etc. Its just that for you the pleasure of tweaking linux, outweighs the opportunity cost of installing linux. “Not every moment of our lives has to have a monetary value.” Actually it does. If you were in the middle of installing a linux distro, and I offered you $200 to stop what you were doing and twiddle your thumbs would you? Probably. If I offered you 50c would you? Probably not. Its like that old adage, every woman is a prostitute, its just a matter of price! 2003-05-02 7:25 pm you could possibly have picked a less offensive adage. how about “every man has his price”? 2003-05-04 12:35 pm For a collection of free software, even if well composed and provided with a good configuration program, libranet is to expensive. There must be a value added, e. g. upgrades for a small fee or somewidely desired or useful non-free software Thus, libranet is no choice for my Pentium 133 computer. I instead have ordered a faster Apple Clone with PPC that with a usable desktop OS 7.x or 8.x is cheaper than the complete libranet OS. And the reselling price of this set in future will be much better then the one of three-year-old linux. The makers of libranet should think about this. 2003-05-05 4:33 am Can we cut the crap about linux being free and discuss the subject at hand? Some points of view on this new version of Libranet would be greatly appreciated.