In a teleconference to go over the Redmond, Wash.-based developer’s fourth quarter and fiscal 2003 results on Thursday, CFO John Connors detailed the five biggest risks to his company’s business. “The general economic environment is risk and driver No. 1,” he said. “Linux and non-commercial software is risk No. 2.” Elsewhere, Gartner says that 80% of the Linux desktops to be deployed in Munich, will be also running VMWare and Windows because of some applications.
Linux Ranks No2 on Microsoft Risk List; Munich Linux to Run VMWare
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
So much for the “big victory” of Linux.
Looking forward to the flames.
I imagine that munich is only doing this on a temporary basis, since it would be far too burdensome to do this on an extended basis. They’re probably going to have the apps needed ported over.
I see this as a necessary part of the transition. It’s virtually impossible to have all necessary applications/data ported/converted to a whole new OS that quickly or find perfect replacements for Windows programs the Munich workers have been using.
It will be better for the city as they can slowly drop their dependence on Windows and also save money in the long run.
Wouldn’t it have just been cheaper to forget about Linux and deploy Windows systems using open source software? Since they’re going to be buying all those Windows licenses anyway. They could save a lot of money if they just ran Windows directly without using VMWare. Because the VMWare licenses definitely add a lot of cost to the project!
I know I was really disappointed when I read that last night. It’s rather depressing. I thought it was wonderful that they were going all Linux, it did seem like a great victory for Linux when I first heard about it. But now the truth comes out.
It just seems like a political thing to me… They can tell people, look we’re running Linux, saving money, and not supporting that evil Microsoft! And they’re not… This is going to cost them more than it would if they had just went with an all Windows solution!
You miss the point. This is actually good news, because it shows that the people at Munich are doing this not because they want something cheaper (it isn’t for them, and we already knew that from the articles talking about how MS bent over backwards during negotiations) but because they want the freedom that Linux offers. They do not want to be tied down to Microsoft. They do not want to deal with their monopolistic practices, and they do not want to be vulnerable to the giant security risk of running software from a foreign country. VMWare is a very legitimate transition tool for those moving to Linux. Lots of Linux users use stuff like WINE to make it easier to integrate into the Windows centric world. However, there is a key difference between using WINE or VMWare and using Windows — If Redmond dropped off the face of the planet tomorrow, tons of Windows shops would be screwed. These guys wouldn’t give a second blink, because they’d be too busy uninstalling VMWare from their machines
It’s natural that the switch would have to be gradual. Like most large organizations, I’m sure they have unique and custom-made software applications. The cost of re-writing that software from scratch all at once would be prohibitive for any government or corporation.
I’m thinking of software I once used to load coal trains – keep track of coal weight, record each car by number and load limit, send receipts, etc. Mandrake doesn’t come bundled with anything like that!
It’s going to take Munich time to switch over, and I bet some users never switch. The idea is to save money in the long run.
-Bob
After all is said and done, the Munich taxpayers will be out a lot more money than with the MS software. Given the german opposition to US in the war, it is easy to understand why there was a sentiment to “punish” a successful US company.
Bottom line is that the MS solution cost $12 million less. Now add to that vmWare licenses (probably $200 a pop) + Windows licenses to run inside vmWare (unless they can use existing licenses) and you just wasted raises for everyone in the city gov’t.
And please, no dance and song about MS forcing you to upgrade every x years. They don’t. You can use the software for as long as you want. They simply drop support for it after 8 years or so. I would expect the same thing to happen with Suse or RH or whoever. Is RH supporting 5.1. Doubtful.
That’s not a rational argument. This move has been planned for a long time, and started long before the war did.
This makes perfect sense. The Munich government is doing what everybody else should be doing — speaking with their wallets. They don’t like MS’s policies, their practice*, so they’re funding their competitors, even if it costs them more at first.
PS> You obviously have no idea of how MS’s commercial licensing works. License 6.0 is positively onerous. I hear License 7.0 will be shortened, though. It’ll just say “bend over…”
> And please, no dance and song about MS forcing you to
> upgrade every x years. They don’t.
Oh please. And when the next exploit to that unsupported system is discovered how are you going to patch your system?
You certainly don’t have the source to do it yourself. Once MS drops support for an OS, that OS is, for all intents and purposes, dead. The minute someone discovers a hole in it, you’ll have to upgrade to the next version like it or not.
actually with lockins you have to pay license fee’s every other period.
And this is more than likely something that was very thought out, Germany doesn’t have a blooming economy, by supporting local software shops (lets not forget, alternative os’s are very large in germany) they are strenghtening the economy and in the long run it will give more jobs, another probable cause for this is the license fees, it costs, and it is a major cost for most governments to keep up with the software updates and service, now they have two paths to follow, hired service or inhouse shops that do the services, also something that will strengthen it.
oh and
“And please, no dance and song about MS forcing you to upgrade every x years. They don’t. You can use the software for as long as you want. They simply drop support for it after 8 years or so. I would expect the same thing to happen with Suse or RH or whoever. Is RH supporting 5.1. Doubtful.”
ofcourse they do not do that, but what they do is support upgrades for free, and its not perpetual like windows its forever ever and a pointrelease in linux land is’nt the same as in windows land mind you.
cheers.
I can see why they still needed Windows as some software
required still only run on Windows.
However there are 2 excellent choice to run windows on linux.
They are Win4lin by Netraverse and CrossOver Office from
Codeweavers. Both have their strengths. Crossover Office is
only USD54 per user and Win4Lin is only USD99. Both capable
and work quite fast
< So much for the “big victory” of Linux.
Looking forward to the flames. >
The software they need to run, is a Windows 3.1 Application. Going to Windows XP would not have proved to be a perfect match because XP doesnt support 3.1/DOS apps very well, some points that ActiveWin doesnt point out. But, what can you expect from a Windows zealots site. No doubt VMWare will most likely be running Windows 3.1, porting an app from Windows to Linux is not an easy task, and yes it will take time.
< Bottom line is that the MS solution cost $12 million less. Now add to that vmWare licenses (probably $200 a pop) + Windows licenses to run inside vmWare (unless they can use existing licenses) and you just wasted raises for everyone in the city gov’t >
Actually, SuSE Linux 8.1 & 8.2 Professional ship VMWare for free, you hace to go to YaST, do a search and type VMWare and it allows you to install it. You only have to go to VMWare to get your registration number, so that they can keep track of it. And no doubt they will be using Windows 3.1, because the app is a Windows 3.1 application and they do not need to pay MS because Windows 3.1 has reached its end of life, and MS doesnt charge for it anymore.
< And please, no dance and song about MS forcing you to upgrade every x years. They don’t. You can use the software for as long as you want. They simply drop support for it after 8 years or so. I would expect the same thing to happen with Suse or RH or whoever. Is RH supporting 5.1. Doubtful. >
No Microsoft doesnt require you to upgrade ever X # of years, but what they do is raise the cost of support options for older versions of Windows, Red Hat has followed the MS route and adopted End of Life but SuSE while they do discontinue a product, if you pay for support options, they will support all versions back to SuSE Linux 6.4.
And no doubt they will be using Windows 3.1, because the app is a Windows 3.1 application and they do not need to pay MS because Windows 3.1 has reached its end of life, and MS doesnt charge for it anymore.
Right… Since when Windows 3.1 is a freeware?
They’ll probably use their current licences. If they can’t, they’ll just buy a Windows 2000/XP licence, as you can use something older with them (AFAIK, correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s what I’ve read ~6 months ago).
< Right… Since when Windows 3.1 is a freeware? >
It isnt, but MS doesnt charge licensing fee’s for it because End of Life has been reached and they consider Windows 3.1 obsolete. I lnow this because one of my clients, a doctors office, still runs Windows NT 3.5, when I called Microsoft to get a license to install it on another PC. They told me that they do not charge for Operating Systems prior to Windows NT 4.0 and Windows 98 anymore, and then proceeded to try to convince me to upgrade.
< They’ll probably use their current licences. If they can’t, they’ll just buy a Windows 2000/XP licence, as you can use something older with them (AFAIK, correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s what I’ve read ~6 months ago). >
Have you ever tried to run a 3.1 or DOS app with 2000/XP, the result is very painful
P.S. MS doesnt support running Windows 3.1 or DOS apps in 2000/XP, so if you cannot get it to work. You are screwed
> Given the german opposition to US in the war, it
> is easy to understand why there was a sentiment
> to “punish” a successful US company.
Pff. http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/mgo-13.04.02-000/, that’s the first article about the subject that I found, dates back to 2002-04-13.
Maybe you’re a bit paranoid?
VMWare comes free with the Suse install and they already have Windows licenses and so that is free as well.
On the other hand, it is true that Microsoft offered a cheaper deal than Suse, but Munich still went with Linux. As a politian, I would think, “Hey, why don’t I buy from these local guys and then take back 35% of their income in taxes. I get a 35% refund and they get paid. Everyone wins.” The other option is to send money to the US where GWB uses the extra cash to buy “noocoolar” weapons.
Here’s the (.pdf, in German) report on the different choices:
http://www.muenchen.de/aktuell/clientstudie_kurz.pdf
Linux + VMWare = €2534/seat
Microsoft + MSOffice = €2410/seat
(you can find this at the end)
The Linux plan includes the costs of VMWare, Windows, etc for the migration. Any migration will cost extra. It’s the money you save in the future that counts.
just the point i was trying to make
I’m really getting sick of the increasing information warfare going on against OSS. It’s getting really dirty as of late.
So Gartner (or is that the readers of activewin.com? I couldn’t find this claim in the original article from June 13) knows 80% of the client are going to run VMWare?
That’s amazing, as the migration plan will not be out until spring next year. But we already knew “analysts” are modern age fortune tellers.
The truth is the migration will stretch out over many years. The clients will be migrated gradually as software is ported over. And no, they won’t just slap VMWare on every box in the meantime, bollocks. They will simply let those boxes run what is currently running on them for the most part. VMware does play it’s role, but not nearly by that scale. Uh, and why buy a Windows licence for VMware? They will reuse their existing copies! Remember, they are still running Win 3.1 in many places! They already don’t give a fuck if MS still supports the OS, so nothing will stop them from using e.g. WinNT 4.0 for many more years as well.
Why are migration costs 2500$ per seat? Because they are completely renewing their IT-infrastructure! Clients, servers, peripherals. And have to port over 175 custom apps.
All of this they have to do anyway, independent from choice of OS.
In the first round Linux came out on top. Only then MS underbid 2 times. So for others municipals MS is very likely to be more expensive. Apropos bid – there was no bid actually. Those were offers, if you know the difference.
Very likely IBM/SuSE is going to get the deal, but Munich is still free to chose the contractor. Yes, there have been no contracts signed yet! The Unilog report is a study, a detailed scenario, and nothing more!
About Linux being “ready for the desktop”. Initially only simple clients running Office and a database client will be moved over. Linux can do this easily just now in the context of a larger organisation with properly trained admins. But even that is 1-2 years away. Remembering where Linux was 3 years ago on the desktop front, I don’t see why Linux shouldn’t be able to go the extra mile within the next 2-3 years. It’s going to be all about application availibility, not about being inherently hard to use, eventually. Maybe there still won’t be native Photoshop for Linux 3 years from now. So what! Linux won’t grow beyond 10% on the client within this time anyway, no matter how good it becomes. Simple economy of growth. And there is place for many OSes.
About alleged Anti-American sentiments of Germans in general and with regards to this decision in particular. The last time I checked, IBM was still an American company. Sure the current US-government is not well respected in Germany. If you can’t figure out why, I can’t help you. Still Germany is one of the closest allies of the USA, next to the Anglo-Saxon nations. In Afghanistan Germany has taken the largest burden of any nation. The reason to go to war with Iraq were simply not convincing. And with hindsight even less so. Germany refuses to go to war and gets bashed for it. What a crazy world!
“Buy German” doesn’t work here. We’ll buy what is cheapest or think is best. When our own car makers screw up, we buy Japanese cars, no tears shed. Germany’s economy is largely export oriented. This makes us sensitive to false patriotism and protectivism. Don’t do unto others…
With the public sector it’s obviously a bit different. The politicians in Munich have the duty not to waste tax money. On the other side it is their job to strengthen the local economy. SuSE is a Bavarian company. As long as they think SuSE can deliver good quality and has a viable business model, so they are not effectively subsidizing them, there is nothing wrong to take effects on the local economy into account. Even with MS’s dumping price the state of Bavaria is better off going with SuSE. The additional tax money they collect withing those many years alone is enough to compensate the price gap. And in the future they will save a lot of money, you can not deny. You know, we “Old Europeans” look more than a business quarter ahead.
In Slovenia I the folks in large companies also choses Linux, but it’s also true, that they often don’t rewrite the old MS-sw. But in my case, we are slowly switching to Linux based sw and I tellja…. IT’S CHEAPER. mySQL, Apache, Open Office,… The companies must only be aware of the freedom and benefits they have from Linux. Some SW companies in SL offer both…. Linux and MS sw! When you are an administrator,… when you nextime upgrade your sw… present the Linux os to the folks, ya might be suprised like I was.
I think they wrote VMWare because the consulting company never heard about WINE 🙂
You should look at page 34 of the short version of the report.
There you can read Suse later offered “lower costs for PC – emulatation (VMWARE) using alternative emulation products…”.
Its obvious they were talking about WINE (or CrossOver Office) – obviously this solution would be cheaper than using VMWARE.
And please, no dance and song about MS forcing you to upgrade every x years. They don’t.
This is false. From USA Today:
http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20030714/5320229s.htm
[Microsoft] agreed to let Munich go as long as six years, instead of the more normal three or four, without another expensive upgrade, a concession that runs against its bread-and-butter software upgrade strategy.
What doesn’t make sense that if they are going to port their custom Win apps anyway, why switch over to Linux/VMware now and port at the same time? If Windows is both “cheaper and technically superior”, why not stick with it for the time being and get subcontractors to port the apps and in 2-3 years when most/all apps are ported, the switch to Linux would be easier, a LOT cheaper (no more buying VMWare and Windows linces).
Training is another issue that no one has mentioned. They are not going to train employees to use Linux and VMWare, and then re-train them to use the native apps when they are finished.
We need more facts for this one me thinks….
>>
And please, no dance and song about MS forcing you to upgrade every x years. They don’t.
This is false. From USA Today:
http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20030714/5320229s.htm
[Microsoft] agreed to let Munich go as long as six years, instead of the more normal three or four, without another expensive upgrade, a concession that runs against its bread-and-butter software upgrade strategy.
<<
Because an article says something, it does not mean it is true.
You should go to the Microsoft licensing site http://www.microsoft.com/licensing/programs/ent/saea56.asp to find out about the real conditions.
BTW the licensing costs for that project are about 7.6 Euros ( http://www.muenchen.de/aktuell/clientstudie_kurz.pdf ) – a price cut from $31.9 million to $23.7 million is hard to imagine. The USA Today quotes numbers for the whole project price (31.9 million) which includes hardware,training, porting of (non-Microsoft) software.
The whole thing has been a study up to now. Until spring 2004 detail plans will be ready.
Because an article says something, it does not mean it is true. You should go to the Microsoft licensing site http://www.microsoft.com/licensing/programs/ent/saea56.asp to find out about the real conditions.
Do you have another source that analyzes your claim in the context of being forced to upgrade because Microsoft would withhold support, being the single supplier of support?
The whole thing has been a study up to now. Until spring 2004 detail plans will be ready.
Are you claiming that Microsoft may still be able to service Munich instead of IBM/SuSE? That is not the impression I got, though if you have any sources I’d like to read them.
>… a LOT cheaper (no more buying VMWare and Windows linces).
The city probably has enough existing Windows licenses, so they don’t have to buy new licences. VMWare comes included with the SuSE Pro distribution.
> Training is another issue that no one has mentioned.
> They are not going to train employees to use Linux and
> VMWare, and then re-train them to use the native apps
> when they are finished
The employees have been trained to use Windows and the existinc applications. By running VMWare, they can continue to use the applications just as they did before.
Breaking free from obfuscated, secret, proprietary formats is not easy. It will not be cheap and there will be a lot of problems in Munich. VMWare licenses alone will eat up the benefit of free
I admire the guts og Munichs polititians. They actually forgot short term budgets to gain true freedom of open standards. This will be expensive the next few years, but will benefit them later. They will actually be able to read their own documents for free.
Here in Denmark, there is a lot of talk about open standars vs. closed standards controlled by some company. Some of the left wing partys have actually stated, that a government should not depend on one company, specially a foreign one. The buzz from Munich has also reached Denmark and there is more and more talk about open source for government insitutions.
regards
…PiCz…
I don’t get it. You use Linux (Free?) and install VMWare ($99) on top. Then you install Windows ($300) on each machine. Then you install some software on the Windows disk ($??.??)
I say “Free?” for the Linux because it probably won’t be. They’ve probably bought a distro from someone. So in the end, they’re just spending more money. Just stick with M$ Windows, and run your software.
I’m not saying Windows is better, but in this situation, it’s the logical choice if you have to have it anyway. I __do__ run Linux, but it’s the logical choice for me. It’s free, with free software that does everything I need. But for them, they end up speding more money.
why not stick with it for the time being and get subcontractors to port the apps and in 2-3 years when most/all apps are ported
Because noone remotely sane runs a 10k+ machines infrastructure for 2 years without support.
It’s interestig to see this discussion. Especially for being german and have spoken to some of decision makers in Munich.
A Windows XP Solution was definitly the cheapest and the one with the lowest risk attached to it. That’s clear and no discussion about it. The key factor for the decision was that they want to avoid a heavy dependance from one company— especially a company from outside Germany.
Simple facts but a long discussion about it
>>> [Microsoft] agreed to let Munich go as long as six years, instead of the more normal three or four, without another expensive upgrade, a concession that runs against its bread-and-butter software upgrade strategy.
>>>
But that’s the point. The licensing from Microsoft can be arbitrary. That’s how they get to twist the arms of every hardware vendors and OEM. They punish those who don’t support their monopoly, and patronise those who do. And that’s not good.
Is Microsoft cheaper? Give me a break. If there was no linux, or if Munich was not considering Linux, do you think MS would have made those price/licencing concessions? Of course not! With no competition, what MS will do is screw users. Look at the licencing for XP. Look how they are trying to tie sotfware so closely to a particular piece of hardware. You change three PCI cards, and you have to get clarification from Redmond. That’s bullshit, and tell you exactly where Microsoft will be headed if it doesn’t get any competition.
At the very least, we need competition to keep microsoft honest.
>> A Windows XP Solution was definitly the cheapest and the one with the lowest risk attached to it.
>>
No, it wasn’t. It only became cheaper after a very unusual microsoft subsidy. And that subsidy only came because, Microsoft was facing the heat. If there was no linux to compete with, do you think Microsoft would have eased pricing? Don’t be fooled, men, look at the broader picture. That’s exactly what the people in Munich did.
Read the Gartner report here:
http://www3.gartner.com/DisplayDocument?id=396500&ref=g_search
I see no reference to 80%, only that “virtual machine” software such as VMware might be used. It doesn’t even say explicitly that VMware itself would be used. For all I know, given Gartners typical levels of competance, that could easily mean Wine.
I mean come on guys. This piece of “news” comes from Paul Thurrot, the most rabid Windows zealot-in-a-suit there is, second only to Robert Scoble. Of course it’s biased.
This is great news! It just shows how serious the people in Münich are about the switch!
No matter how much problems they face with the current installation, they are moving to the new environment.
From my own experiance (Yes. I have switched my entire backend to Linux and some of the clients as well.) I know that they will not be unhappy with the switch. Windows may be okay, but the cost saving, calculated over a range of 5 to 10 year is incredible. Windows is extremly expensive!
And Microsoft did a big big misstake by dropping support for Windows NT. They just forced serval of my clients to think about the server infrastructure. Now I have everywhere clients switching their Windows NT Enterprise servers to Linux. And the economy is very friendly now for Linux. I live in Zürich (Switzerland) and our national Airline is in deep deep trouble. And now all the sub companies working with the main Airline company are switching in some way to Linux. Just last week I heard that at the place where my sister is working, they are exchanging Lotus Notes/Domino with a SuSE system (SHIT!! I love Notes/Domino! But I 100% understand them! Saving money is very very important in our current time).
And another thing what was bad in München:
Microsoft gived so much discount, that it was 100% clear to everyone over there: Microsoft is earning alot of money on the licencing. They where able to drop and drop and drop the price, serval times! From the classical view point of economy: They are not pricing their product very well! (I don’t know how to say that in english, but in german I would say: Das hat absolut nichts mehr mit Angebot und Nachfrage zu tun! Die gestallten ihre Preise so wie es ihnen gefällt. Und nun wird es nicht mehr so einfach sein!)
Microsoft will not die, but they are facing serious problems! Not only from Linux! Eaven their own products are a problem! If you think about Windows 2000 or XP, then tell me why the hell does an client need to switch to Windows 2003 or an new version of Windows? Or Office? The old version are doing their job very well. But Microsoft needs to get more money.
In german: Die haben aus einem Produkt das man benützen kann, solange man möchte; ein Konsumprodukt gemacht! Bzw. sie versuchen es. Ich glaube nicht, dass der Markt das mitmacht!
cheers
SteveB
software like vmware+wine… those r all taking gnu linux out of her track. well, lets say its like politics.. by emulating windows, linux OS accepts the greatness of MS WINDOWS and also accepts she is inferior to it. MS WINDOWS doesnt even bother adding support for ext3(or any unix file system)and linux is tryin not just to support windows also run windows software on it.
Its only a victory when companies like Adope, Macromedia,EA starts supporting linux.
Linux can’t even boot without the existance of GNU-open source software.. don’t u all think its around time linux having unique libs, software on it.. specially optimized for linux, a de facto GUI, optimized, DE optimized..
Without those, linux .. SKYOS etc.. etc.. will only gonna be weak subsides of windoz..
“The key factor for the decision was that they want to avoid a heavy dependance from one company— especially a company from outside Germany”
Good enough reason for me, and one not coloured by the varying degrees of OS zealotry displayed on this board. I’d have to say this sounds like the real reason for the decision. If they want to throw German taxpayers money at Germans then good luck to ’em, it’s nice to see some politicians looking after their own (Whilst in the UK our PM goes off on another jaunt around the world :>).
They can use their existing windows licenses. VMware will probably sell its own licenses for a fraction of normal prices. There are a number of free DOS emulators that run on Linux.
They are obviously weaning of Windows over a few years – a sensible thing. It will take quite a while to retrain staff etc.
Linux so does not have to get its own new libs. GNU software is perfectly fine for Linux. I could argue that right now, Linux is the primary target for GNU software, so it should reflect in the optimisations and so on. But that is an opinion, and could be wrong.
Running windows software is to actually preserve the investment made in software meant for Windows only. It wasn’t going to be good for them to totally ignore software that existed. It was good for certain uses, so it shall be used again under Linux. This also greatly eases the pain of transition.
Linux is up and coming. Its development has historically been skewed towards server use, where it makes a jolly good server. The desktop suffered a fair bit, because there was no market for it. Now there is desktop push.And development will reflect that. On the desktop, people expect fairly matured software, on the server, if it fits the bill, it is good.
Also, desktops have a fair spread of uses, so one cannot have a desktop that is good in one dimension, and not useful in another. Anyway, the desktop is now there. The problem with ISV software, is the chicken and egg problem. Plus the threat of Microsoft. Lets face it, MS will try to punish any ISV who bring out software to work on Linux, by possibly bringing out their own versions of the software to push them out of the market. Or buy them, like they did to Corel who stopped developing for Linux.
why not stick with it for the time being and get subcontractors to port the apps and in 2-3 years when most/all apps are ported
Because noone remotely sane runs a 10k+ machines infrastructure for 2 years without support
but that’s excactly what they plan to do: run their apps in VMWARE for the next 3 years.
No one mentioned that VMWare is an excellent way to help in porting the software.
ah, please stop all the political conspiracy and what not crap. in the long run it’s cheaper for them this way, that is what mattered. On the other hand I’ll only consider this to be some kind of “victory” for linux when they are still running it in 5 years and haven’t run into any of the troubles I’m expecting at the moment.
You guys think that an anti-linux acticle from activewin.com is actually true.
Guido Schimmels:
“Buy German” doesn’t work here.”
and then:
“On the other side it is their job to strengthen the local economy. SuSE is a Bavarian company.”
Can’t you see the contradiction? Trust me on this one, Germans do prefer to buy German and that’s why suse got the job, if it was mandrake or red-hat they would have stayed with windows.
You know, I think it’s more a GNU victory. Not a technical or cost one. Certainly, the Windows option is cheaper and technically better. (I’ve used Linux desktops, and they’re simply not as usable as people like to claim.) But the Munich people are choosing for “strategic,” freedom-oriented reasons.
This is why a GNU hippie stresses freedom, because it’s not necessarily true that Free Software is technically better. It might be, but you can’t underestimate money as a motivator to develop your product.
Does anybody know anything about VMWare’s line of products? They are running VMWare server, not the workstation product.
They are not running VMWare individually on each workstation, but rather they are running the VMWare server that allows them to use Windows Apps when and if needed. What the city of Munich is doing makes perfect business sense and is a great way to protect tax payers money: Move to Linux for the long-term benefits and run Windows from a server and have workstations connect to the hosted apps when necessary. Not only does this save them a HUGE bundle on licensing costs, it makes the transition to Linux much easier by doing away with the expected amount of resistance from the more recalcitrant workers.
The people who reported this on ActiveWin are the ones who are misleading everyone by a) not understanding the long-term strategic vision that drove the migration b) assuming that a copy of Windows/office is going to be running on each desktop. Ignorance is bliss or is it?
Linux is doing here what it has always done, play nicely with other environments, which is nothing but the good business-sense recognition that hybrid environments have always existed and will continue to do so.
Of course, if Activewin had bothered to do some fact-checking, it wouldn’t have driven visitors to their page en masse.
You missed my distinction consumer/public sector.
My point was the decision is not born out of a anti-american sentiment, as has been alleged by a previous poster. The involvement of IBM should be proof enough for this.
Mandrake is barely alive, so is no valid option anyway. If redhat had a strong German division, they would have a decent chance to get the contract. Based on the Unilog report, Munich has made the strategic decision to go Linux. They are still free to choose the contractor. The offerings of SuSE and MS were only the basis for this strategic decision. The actual bid hasn’t happened yet. Theoretically MS could still bid for the contract – by becoming a Linux distributor.
First, we find out that not only have the Germans already had to admit they will have to pay more for their SuSe solution, now we find out there are very possibly other hidden costs (and additional operational complexities) that weren’t originally forecast?
But yet it’s hailed as “how commited” they are. It could turn out to be “how foolish” they are instead, don’t forget they are already starting out in the hole.
Munich will save a lot of money now when they switch over to Linux..
but they will save even more many if they use Linux Open-source software instead of porting the crappy windows applications!!
the can…
1. use GIMP instead of the slow Photoshop
2. use OpenOffice instead of Microsoft Office v.X
3. use Mozilla Firebird instead of Explorer
4. use KWrite instead of Notepad
there is many, many, many more free opensource programs for linux…theres no need to porting windowsprograms!!!!!!!
..they do not want to be vulnerable to the giant security risk of running software from a foreign country.
The key factor for the decision was that they want to avoid a heavy dependance from one company— especially a company from outside Germany
Germans do prefer to buy German and that’s why suse got the job, if it was mandrake or red-hat they would have stayed with windows.
These statements or other similar ones seem to be a defense of Munich choosing SuSe over ‘American’ Microsoft. I might accept that, if you’re from Germany (which ALL of you may be, can’t tell on here). But if you’re American, like me, how does this argument help sell Linux to Americans, since the kernel is controlled by foreigner Linus Torvalds, and many Americans may feel this is an important issue to them, although obviously from a completely contradictory angle?
My opinion is that they chose suse because suse is german not because microsoft is american. Mandrake is french remember and you can bet that they would have as much chance of getting a contract as anyone else that’s not german (meaning not much of a chance at all) because that’s the way things work around here in europe, at least until the european commission intervenes: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1359613.stm
My opinion is that they chose suse because suse is german…
I understand that, but why doesn’t your argument just mean MS=US for me as an American? And don’t say Red Hat, because they’re nothing more than a Volkswagon-like reseller for Torvalds, who controls the kernel. It could mean Apple, perhaps for me instead, but most on this thread seem more interested in pushing Linux for some reason, so I was simply asking about the flip side of the argument.
Again, based on the argument of “they bought it because it was german” infer that I as an American am allowed to refuse to use Torvalds product because he is not? As far as I’m concerned it does, but I’m simply wondering if you’re willing to admit it as well, since this seems to be a common defense for the german line of reasoning.
So, let’s summarize.
– The 80% number is unconfirmed = probably nonsense anyway.
– It doesn’t say VMWare will be used. They might be talking about WINE.
– They’re not buying additional Windows licences. It’s about running old Win 3.11-based software.
– Thus switching to XP would be just as painful as switching to Linux.
– OK. You’re Munich. You’re faced with a decision: Windows – closed source – or Linux – open source. Open source means you have access to the source, which allows for easier customization. Supporting open source also means supporting free and open core technology available to own people. Good thing[TM].
– The patriotism thing is nonsense. They used Windows before; how can you say they avoid American software companys? Stupid! Of course, SuSE being a German company didn’t hurt. Can you seriously accuse a government for investing in a native company? Aren’t Americans proud of their technology companies, too? And no, I didn’t have anything to do with the war. This is childish.
– This is not the first “go open source!” decision. The BSI, a German government institution, actively funds Project Aegypten (secure message exchange based on free software: GnuPG et all) and Kroupware (Exchange/Outlook replacement running on Linux & using KDE technology).
– Voter’s opinion counts. The decision is well-received by the German public. I’m a German taxpayer; the government spending my money on open-source makes me very very happy.
Patriotism is not the same concept in Germany as it is in the US. Patriotism is vital to Americans, who often as schoolchildren are raised to pledge oaths to the flag. In Germany, it is fairly distasteful to be patriotic, since the memory of 1930s lingers.
However, it is an important function for a government to spur local business. Subsidies, investments, etc. This should not be confused with patriotism, as the ability to trade with other nations is in question.
A strong reason to choose SuSE is the same one Germans choose SAP — the availability of local consultants who know the country. Redhat boxes are sold in Germany right next to SuSE, but Redhat is not a powerful global company yet. How could they be expected to support the German market if they are still fighting for scraps of the American market?
Gee Suss, the Volkswagen thing really doesn’t fit in here, Sagres. That’s about a f***** company trying to make more money because they spotted an opportunity. That’s capitalism, alright. You have that in America or France or any Western European company every day. That’s why there are courts and comissions, for Christ’s sake. If we really want to through mud at each other, let’s talk about the French government banning the term “e-mail” this week to “stop an incursion from the English language” – and now blame us for buying our own software again. Per e-mail, perhaps? Oh, I forgot – it’s “courriel” now.
Some mud for the Americans, too: Why did DARPA revoke OpenBSD funding? Because someone up the chain realized that most OpenBSD developers aren’t even American, that’s why.
See how childish this is? Digging up bad examples and painting each others all black doesn’t get us anywhere. So, again: Did SuSE being a German company hurt? No, of course not. Is that the only reason why SuSE Linux was chosen? No, of course not. Who’d be that stupid? Imagine the bad press, the pressure from the opposition. You can believe me when I say they wouldn’t get away with that. Nah. Did they chose Linux because they don’t want to depent on Microsoft anymore? Might very well be – I can’t blame them, to be honest. Because Microsoft is American? No, of course not. There are hundreds of Germans working for Microsoft Germany, after all, and we’re in the middle of an employment crisis.
Munich chose open source. As far as I’m concerned, that decision can be very well justified
BTW, note that the US is economically punishing Germany for disobedience, not the other way around. Still assimilating East Germans and with far higher unemployment, Germany is in no position to make economic demands of the US. Whereas America is quite angry that Germany did not concede to their wartime demands.
“Patriotism is not the same concept in Germany as it is in the US. Patriotism is vital to Americans, who often as schoolchildren are raised to pledge oaths to the flag. In Germany, it is fairly distasteful to be patriotic, since the memory of 1930s lingers.”
Right. A little story, almost too off-topic perhaps: ‘Bout two years ago, they almost made a member of the German cabinet (Juegen Trittin) step down because he said he’s proud to be German in the German parliament (context: he’s environmentalist and very happy about the consequent reduction of emissions). Now imagine an American Senator not being allowed to say “I’m proud to be American”.
It makes sense that they would use VMWare to support their legacy apps until they’re ported. I imagine they’ll run these apps using their Win3.1 licenses on VMWare virtual machines – and they’ll be able to use more modern desktop for the rest (e-mail and groupware, internet, office). I mean, I’d sure be happy to have a modern, graphically pleasant and full-featured desktop and occasionally use the legacy app on a switchable screen or window. This makes perfect sense, and I am not a bit surprised by this. I’m sure they’ll be able to get a good price for VMWare as wll…although perhaps they should have looked at other options, like Windows serving apps to Linux clients (with Citrix, IIRC). I’d imagine that Crossover Office wouldn’t do, the time to modify it to support arcane legacy apps might make porting them seem simpler and cheaper.
Jeus, the Windows crowd is really looking at this close, eh? They’re really looking for that chink in the armor…well I guess Linux can no longer be ignored, so now it’s being derided. So, after that comes the real fight and then we win, if I remeber’s Gandhi’s line correctly…
(BTW guys, don’t bother arguing with TopSpeed he’s a paid MS shill – at least I hope he gets paid, otherwise his emotional/borderline xenophobic hatred of Linux is just scary.)
…I think TopSpeed is Paul Thurrott. I mean, they’re both frothing at the mouth when it comes to Linux. And the writing style are similar…now, we only need to find out if Thurrott is 6’4″, 250lbs…
Eike, that link was just to illustrate the fact that in EU it’s the commision that intervenes in transnational disputes, i was just responding to top speed’s comment and BTW i’m not french, I simply think that Strasbourg isn’t that far away from Munchen than Berlin for example, so the “doesn’t know the country” argument doens’t hold for mandrake IMHO.
…I think TopSpeed is Paul Thurrott. I mean, they’re both frothing at the mouth when it comes to Linux. And the writing style are similar…now, we only need to find out if Thurrott is 6’4″, 250lbs…
Steel you’re the one who’s scary, with your obsessive fascination with poster ‘top speed’. Just because I blow your arguments away is nothing to be particularly impressed about, as it’s taken little effort, really.
Well… it is funny how someone can say that a Windows XP with an, Office (Word only… because that was what MS was offering) as part of their deal/offer, is actualy cheaper than a Linux with Open Office (COMPLETE, with unlimited upgrades… as it is with a grand mayority of linux apps)…
And that barbarity of the asuption that they will need to get new licences for Windows because they will use VMWare (or whatever they use) to run apps of Weakdoze in Linux IS A TOTAL FUD… BARBARITY… BRUTALY WRONG ASUPTION… They are not getting anymore licences from MS… why do you think they are changing in the first place… RETARDs…
There is something More also, hardware… for them to get XP would mean more than the usual licensing/contracts and CONTROL… it would force an unecesary upgrade of hardware…
and I am an american… and IBM is american…
and I think Suse knows better German than RH… or maybe even mandrake… and them been there means they will have no excuse on lack of support… fast and undertandable support…
And yes it won’t be easy… but it will proof that there are more options than MS optios… Pluss I find it been well thought out…
Like it or not… linux is getting to be noticed… and whaever they lack will become avaible with demand… linux is advancing… and it will proof to be a viable option for many…
when i heard that they were going to get rid of windows to get linux which will run windows … i thought, that sounds like typical government decision making to me.
1. use GIMP instead of the slow Photoshop
2. use OpenOffice instead of Microsoft Office v.X
3. use Mozilla Firebird instead of Explorer
4. use KWrite instead of Notepad
The first is Microsoft in risk! (Very high risk!!!) It is so buggy that it is not secure. People, Linux is more, more secure then Microsoft. And it is not good to migrate from Linux to Microsoft!
Okay. They want to run some old Win 3.1 apps, presumably because the cost of porting will be prohibitive.
Using Linux, they can use: VMWare, Win4Lin, Wine or CrossOver Office. But if they migrate to XP, what would they use, bearing in mind that 3.1 apps don’t run very well at all? Can you buy or get hold of a good software layer that allows this?
“Just because I blow your arguments away…”
See what I mean? This guy is so delusional it’s scary! I’ve disproved every one of his arguments and still he comes up saying it’s the opposite. He has a nasty tendency to distort the truth (another reason why he may be Paul Thurrott) and – for someone who berates Linux user’s “lack of IP concerns” – is not above reprinting entire articles in the OSNews comments section.
My guess is that he’s a disgruntled Slashdot poster who go sick of being constantly modded down for his inflammatory rethoric. Personally, I’ve decided to stop directly discussing with him, as he constantly ignores challenges to his gross misrepresentations and replies with more half-baked myths and the like.
Isn’t the guy from T3? I tought he was a bum and not a CFO…
“I’ll be back!”
>> A Windows XP Solution was definitly the cheapest and the one with the lowest risk attached to it.
>>
>No, it wasn’t. It only became cheaper after a very >unusual microsoft subsidy. And that subsidy only came >because, Microsoft was facing the heat. If there was no >linux to compete with, do you think Microsoft would have >eased pricing? Don’t be fooled, men, look at the broader >picture. That’s exactly what the people in Munich did.
Perhaps you should read the original article, in the first round the Linux option was actually more expensive than Microsoft’s, they then both discounted, Linux by about 10 percent and M$ by about 30. By the end of the rounds the Linux option was significantly more expensive.