“As a long time Linux user, and being somewhat of a geek, I personally would not run Lindows. That said, I must admit that I was extremely surprised at what I found after finally installing Lindows for myself. For the most part this is a well thought out Linux distribution targeted at new computer users and windows converts.” Read the review at PhatViBez by Brad Chamberlin.
The Lindows Analysis: A Second Look
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
A fine review. What struck me however was the reference to Lindows offering a choice of ISPs that includes Juno and Netzero. Outside of Windows or MacOS?!? I thought Juno and Netzero absolutely required you to use their dialup software – which drives me crazy. That’s why I also got meself neucomm.net, cheap and I can dialup in Win or Linux.
So… I would be grateful is Brad or someone could clarify, “How can Lindows – or any version of Linux – allow one to dialup Juno or Netzero?”
We worked closely with several ISP’s to provide turn-key modem support for LindowsOS. LindowsOS supports many dial-up ISP’s, including NetZero, Juno, Earthlink, NetHere, Speakeasy, and others. LindowsOS users will find icons for each of these ISP’s on the desktop, under Internet Connection Tools.
Kevin Carmony
President, Lindows.com
I think you have to hand it to Lindows. They set out to create an easy to use Linux distro for non-geeks and it seems they are on their way to accomplishing that goal. I don’t use Lindows (I don’t use Linux at all anymore since I’ve switched away from Linux to a Mac) but I would have no hesitation in recommending their product to Linux newbies.
Anything that can help break the iron fist of Microsoft is good thing, IMHO, and therefore I am glad to see Lindows progressing nicely.
Jesus…how hard is it to create a non-root user for newbies and have them use that instead ? Hell MDK does it solid by allowing users to access advanced apps like MDK-Control Panel by just requesting that they type in their root password.
Honestly, I have to admit that running users as root by default may be a good idea for their market, even though I wish they had found another way.
As for the optional root password though, that is the most unbelieveable thing I have ever heard! That should be REQUIRED. Just explain to the user that it is the “key” to the system and that they should therefore make sure they know it and keep it secret. OS X sure got that one right. In OS X your main account password controls access to everything, even other saved passwords.
Lindows has two good things: business focus and usability. They seem to have lifted quite a few tricks from Redmon’s playbook, yet the one that would increase its usebase by leaps and bounds escapes them.
Drug-dealer marketing: get them hooked. If you truly have the most usable desktop, people will not want to leave it after they tried it. But, initially, you must give away the OS for a whole six months. Put a huge press release announcing the give-away and so that current members of your click-and-run don’t feel cheated, extend their membership by an additional six months.
I have been seeing a huge number of new faces and new names in Linux newsgroups and fora. There is a window of opportunity that Lindows has to seize. It is either now or never.
Lindows has managed to make a name for itself. Give the damn thing away for anyone who wants it. It will steal a lot of thunder from Microsoft and bring you all the freeloaders. You are then left to figure out how to make money and here too I have a piece of advice:
You will make serious money when Lindows has such mindshare and is so pervasive that the Lindows brand is synonimous to Linux. End of free advice.
I have been using Mandrake for 4 years. I have never used Lindows and some of its past practices concern me. But I want it to do well. Once it does, drivers and software for all Linux Distros will abound.
I’m glad he liked it, but I’m surprised at Eugenia for posting it. The fact he Warzed it to get it then complained about the click-n-run …which he would have got for paying up. Other than that it was pretty good, but again, he couldn’t test the main features because he didn’t get it legally. Don’t they also have a working [legal] DVD player too!
Lindows it the attempt to “perfect” Microsoft’s market [wet dream] out from under them which may not necessarily be a good thing. But they are going after the “appliance” model of computing. You should be able to load the computer up at BB next to your toaster oven and VCR. Plug in and go. Then they “service” your PC for you from afar for a fee. The upside is that you don’t really pay for single software packages either. Once they have mass, I’d suppose most authors would attempt to get on click-n-run for a cut of the action…maybe even preimum chanels or choices. It’s a good model and it might work…Of course it’s also MS model, but they can’t be that brazen…yet.
Devon, I must disagree with you.
The MS-like idea of running as root is simply awful, and one of the (many) things that made windows as virus prone as it is.
This is an idea well set in the wrong concept of “let’s not bother the user”.
I cannot imagine why people expect to use a computer without learning anything about using it. Even to learn how to use a VCR for recording your favorite show when you are not at home needs a (minimum) of “study”, not to speak about driving cars, mobile phones, and many other commonplace things.
And I don’t think that learning “the password is like the lock on the door of your apartment, you wouldn’t leave it without, wouldn’t you” is a concept so difficult to grasp for anyone with more than 6 years old (I do not recall when children learn the concept of defending their proprerties, but you get the idea).
So, removing the root password is just encouraging dangerous laziness, like not telling “you cannot put metal objects in your microwave oven when you cook”.
And moreover, the danger is not worth the time savings…
ParideP
If Lindows is to make it on the Desktop, ROOT is the only way. I am sorry to say, but the USER (>=IDIOT according to us computer geeks) doesn’t know anything but Windows.
Most USERS think that Windows is the computer… or the computer IS Windows. If you bother them with one more setting that they are not used to, they will not bother with you.
If Lindows logged in as standard USER, then the internet would be full of questions like: “I can’t seem to install the blahblah… it says I have not rights… But why does it say that? I thought the computer is mine…”. Do you really want to bring this kind of confusion to the User just to have another SECURE linux? You know how to set it up. Just do it.
In anycase, I use Lindows, and I have created 2 non root users for me and my sister. So why can’t the rest of us geeks do the same and let the USER alone?
Also one more thing. I believe Linux should stop adding features now, and finalize things such as Installation, Help, Desktops, Wizards. When Robertson (Lindows CEO) says the enemy is Microsoft he is telling something that the Linux comunity seems to ignore. Red Hat, SCO, SUSE, Mandrake should not be here to take customers from each other, but from Microsoft.
I am sorry to say, but the USER (>=IDIOT according to us computer geeks) doesn’t know anything but Windows.
Damnit !
Don’t treat users as idiots when they are just newbies.
The newbie I was hope you understand the difference.
If it’s very clear in your mind why you _should NOT_ login graphically as root, you can also explain it clearly. Pedagogy is required, not a bad workaround.
Mandrake do a good job for this matter : when you log as root, you have a red (=danger) background image, a kde as usable as twm, and a dialog explain you clearly why this is bad, and if you manually press enter, you log out.
But I don’t want to reduce Lindows to this controversial subject. Their agressive marketing, and the pre-installed PCs with Lindows are two domains where they fulfill a big lack of the entier Linux community.
If Lindows logged in as standard USER, then the internet would be full of questions like: “I can’t seem to install the blahblah… it says I have not rights… But why does it say that? I thought the computer is mine…”.
It does not necessary have to be hard !
The standard USER will use the ClickNRun thing, he will be prompted for a password, and can use the GUI thing.
It’s much easier than to install & keep up2date the antivirus that you will need otherwise.
When Robertson (Lindows CEO) says the enemy is Microsoft
I am also tired with this one. The ennemy of my ennemies are not my friends. Please find another argument.
Being a non techy sort of person, I always found certain aspects of Linux to be rather difficult to comprehend.
Yes I know I should give it more time, and I have, but I am an ex windows user who needs to get things running asap.
I have come across Lindows and I have to admit that this has totally replaced my windows system, it is very easy to use, has some decent tutorials, great support, and friendly people in the forums.
If it wasn’t for Lindows I would have gone the MacOS route, and I wasn’t really happy to do so, considering my business is based on building PC’s!:-)
I understand a few of the hardcore Linux users out there may not be happy with the Lindows ideal, but I have to admit that Lindows has been the only Linux distro to make me a full convert. And I would say that anything that reveals in a gentle and friendly manner the wonderful world of Linux has to be a good thing. Lindows may well be replaced in time with a more involved and hence more techy version of Linux, but if Lindows continues to enhance and promote Linux they way they have lately then more power to them.
Pretty brazen of the guy to sign his name to the fact that he downloaded from an “undisclosed location” this commercial software. It’s surprising to me that the OSNews editors run the review considering it is a pirate copy being reviewed. If I understand correctly there are crucial Lindows features such as “Click -n- Run” that will not function without a legal installation. So this is not a full review, there are key features that the reviewer couldn’t cover because $29.99 was too hefty a pricetag for him.
In my opinion Eugenia should address in a statement her decision to run the review, ie. tell us why this is okay. Or consider pulling the article.
Why not create a /usr/local/$user or ~/My Programs/ or whatevere directory for each account where users have full rw access? Add that to the $PATH, tweak the .deb packages (or perhaps tweaking the installer might be easier) and users can install programs without beeing root. Sure only the user who installed the program can use it, and if there are multiple users you’ll need multiple copies, but harddrive space is cheap and most home computers don’t have more than two or three users anyway.
Adding an option to install for all user, which would require a root password, could fix that problem though. This also makes it easier to for different users to have different versions of the same program as default. For example if one user wants the default stable version of gimp and another wants the lates alpha version, there wouldn’t be a problem.
This would fix the “only root can install” problem and let users do just about everything without needing to be root. If anybody at Lindows (or anywhere else) is listening, please consider this as it will be huge step forwards.
I personally think that what matters is the fact that if the user is concern about security he can create an user and get out of root mode, and Lindows do not restric the user from doing this.
But, if the user is not concern about security or he doesn’t have a clue, it doesn’t matter if he is root or user, his computer can get infected equally.
I do not understand why people has such a concern on this matter, the only way a clueless user can not make his computer vulnerable is restricting it as much as possible.
This is what happens in a corporation environment where the users do not own the computers and is the network admin who rule.
But restrictions at home???? what are you guys talking about? at home my computer is mine, and the only way I can control it is being root/admin.
I for myself do the root stuff in a console, but you can not teach basic security concepts like this to a person who have problems remembering how to find where he saved a document.
Many of the regular users out there do not understand the file tree, or they do not know what a directory is or why the hard disk get full.
However, what is not a bad idea is for the Lindows guys to do, is to add a note to let the user know that he can make his computer more secure if he creates another account, and place a link to the documentation about this topic.
And fyi do you know anyone at home who runs Windows apps as a regular user???? all the people I know do it as admin or making an user member of the admin group.
I set a computer for my wife to use and installed Lindows. The installation was breeze. Click ‘N Run worked great and was well worth the price. I had the whole thing up and going in less than 30 min. She uses it everyday and says it works just fine. She’s very satisfied with it and I’m relieved that I didn’t get any grief for not install Windows.
BTW, the “running as root” idea is perfect for single user home machines. You guys that are against that obviously don’t have a wife using her own computer.
There seems to be some misunderstanding about who, or what, the general computer user does or thinks. Obviously, there is no single definition that can cover the broad range of users. However, it can be said that the 80-20 rule applies here. The 20% group includes those of us who want to learn more about the inner workings of an OS. The remaining 80% cover the range from ‘I don’t mind learning somethings’ to ‘I do not wish to spend my time learning all about computers’.
This 80-20 rule applies to many areas. For example, it would be nice if I knew how (take the time to learn) to build an addition to my house. It would be cheaper but I am not interested so I hire someone else to do it for me (higher cost) and I will just enjoy using it.
People are not idiots, or stupid, just because they are not interested in investing their time learning how to do maintenance on their cars. Yes, they could save money but note: their interests lie in other areas where maybe you would not want to spend time learning.
I have taught many people to use computers with different operating systems. The majority (in that 80%) just wanted to use the computer and were not interested in learning how to properly maintain the system or other ‘esoteric’ areas.
If the goal is to reach the 80% group then it is necessary to make the learning path as short as possible. It is not by accident that Apple had a motto of, “The computer for the rest of us”.
If Linux is to make inroads then there has to be a compelling reason to get people to change. The cost of the system is merely a minor part of the purchase. The largest consideration is ease of use and maintenance. They do not wish to stare at the blue screen of death and wonder what to do next.
I will give one example in the Macintosh world. There is a piece of software that will check the system for irregularities and duplicate files. It is actually a very nice program. Unfortunately, when the search is over the user is presented with a list of ‘problem’ files and asked if they want to delete them. The common reaction is, “How in the world do I know if a file is important”. The end result is that they cancel the program rather than make a mistake. Folks, this is a very user unfriendly program but a good utility for the knowledgeable.
From the review: “One last thing to be mentioned of the Lindows desktop is kind of humorous. When deleting files in Lindows by default they go to the trashcan. When the trashcan has something in it the icon displays what looks like a Windows XP icon in the trash.”
I must say I like that trashcan
I personaly hate what MS has done to Windows 2000, XP is a clear example of what not to do with a successful product.
The people who like XP is just because they did not use Win2k before and they come from the 9x/ME versions.
Win2k is like XP but without that much rubbish.
I have a computer using Windows 2000. However, I have another two computers using Windows XP. Would I upgrade from Windows 2000 to Windows XP? Unlikely. Would I downgrade from Windows XP to Windows 2000? Highly unlikely too. But you forget, Windows XP is primarily targeted towards Windows 9x users, and also to merge two different desktop Windows product line into one.
Does being a Geek or Nerd make you stupid? If you say that you won’t use Lindows because it, by default, has to run as root without a password then in all honestly I don’t know how you can consider yourself something other than an idiot. It is SUPER EASY to create a root password and uses in Lindows. If you can fall down you have half the IQ it takes to do this.
BTW, the “running as root” idea is perfect for single user home machines. You guys that are against that obviously don’t have a wife using her own computer.
No it isn’t! It’s unsafe, period.
Brad C has echoed an opinion that I have said before. It is a terrible idea to leave newbies with insecure defaults because they don’t realize that they are insecure and won’t know to fix the problem.
It’s not as if there aren’t newbie-friendly ways to discourage running as root.
There are several ways that Linux, Debian, and LindowsOS protect the user who is root more than you might think. First, many programs won’t allow any outside access if the user is root and no root password is set. For example, you can’t ssh into such a box. Second, almost no services are installed by default, so on most ports there is no daemon to attack. Third, LindowsOS has a firewall which by default blocks all incoming traffic except for port 22.
The only person you are not protected from is yourself, and anyone else who might sit down at your keyboard. But that’s nothing new, there is no operating system that can protect you from someone with physical access to the machine. As for the issue of corrupting the system files on your own machine, the system files are the ones you can always get back. Its the user data that can’t always be reproduced, and that is always owned by the user and vulnerable to their mistakes.
So would we like to run as a non-root user by default? Sure, that would be great. But it is not an important enough issue to compromise the user experience very much. A standard debian system will ask for the root password many many times in the course of normal operation – to install hardware, to install software, to set the bloody clock!
We suspect that some more advanced protection mechanism such as extended attributes and access control lists may provide the final answer.
The only person you are not protected from is yourself, and anyone else who might sit down at your keyboard. But that’s nothing new, there is no operating system that can protect you from someone with physical access to the machine. As for the issue of corrupting the system files on your own machine, the system files are the ones you can always get back. Its the user data that can’t always be reproduced, and that is always owned by the user and vulnerable to their mistakes.
However, even with other users added, Lindows seems to encourage the owner of the machine to run as root, a.k.a. Administrator. That means that the owner can run a trojan that wallops not only his or her own files, but the user data of other users.
Also, corrupting system files is a good way of making it hard to recover user data (i.e. by messing up the boot process or wrecking the programs used to handle files). A corrupt system also cost users’ time and effort. That “system files are the ones you can always get back” is not too comforting if the system gets compromised, say, just before a deadline.
A standard debian system will ask for the root password many many times in the course of normal operation – to install hardware, to install software, to set the bloody clock!
So? Trojans “compromise the user experience” far worse than GUI dialogs for typing in passwords. Typing a password just isn’t that hard. For home use, one can just keep the password in one’s wallet, and if the password is repeatedly used, it will be remembered.
We suspect that some more advanced protection mechanism such as extended attributes and access control lists may provide the final answer.
In the meantime, you have a decent protection mechanism right now that is far less cumbersome than you make it out to be. Use it!
Trojans don’t really need to be root, neither to destroy user data nor to propagate themselves. The Unix security system is designed to protect users on a given machine from other users on that same machine. That is why something new is needed.
Trojans don’t really need to be root, neither to destroy user data nor to propagate themselves.
Trojans, however, can do more damage as root, both to system files and to the user data of all the users on a system.
As for whether the trojan needs root access — well, that depends on the trojan.
Why give more quarter to trojans than necessary, especially since the means of popping up a GUI root password dialog is both well-understood and commonly implemented?
The Lindows rebranding borderlines on plagiarism. I can accept that it is helpful to rename Mozilla but OpenOffice is very self-explanatory. Many OSS coders are obviously (partly) in it for recognition of their talent – Lindows is appropriation without recognition.
Oh well, I doubt anyone is reading this any more. But believe it or not, I agree with you about the importance of guarding against trojans. However, it is also important not to be complacient and think that the current security system is going to protect us when the black hats all start targetting our system instead of the other guy’s. Just because it is well understood doesn’t mean it will work!