In the Apple conference in Paris, Jobs spoke of the new 15″ Powerbook, the updated 12″ and 17″ Powerbooks, the new Bluetooth keyboard and mouse and he re-iterated that Panther will be out before the end of the year and that G5 will reach 3GHz by the end of next summer.
Apple Upgrades its Lineup
Submitted by James Alcasid 2003-09-16 Apple 79 Comments
that would benice, as I realy want to get it for my g4 Tower!!!
I was surprised to learn that the 1,6 GHz G5 has a different mobo than the others with plain old PCI-slots only — I would have though that it’s cheaper to build all models on the same mobo…
Link is to the iMac story last week, not the powerbook update. Try this: http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2003/09/16/powerbook/
be great for Laptop users.
I’m looking forward to having a bluetooth mouse for my new Powerbook, but unfortunately, I may have to buy a 3rd party one, as Steve Jobs is still married to the one button mouse. Now, I don’t mind a one button mouse that much. I don’t mind the Powerbook only having one button on its trackpad, but if I pay big money for a fancy mouse, I want a second button and a scrollwheel.
From what I’ve seen the motherboards are all similar in construction and I’d imagine the only thing needed other than physically swapping the PCI connectors would be an added controller (if necessary) along the bus path. The bus controller may already have that functionality built into it as well. But as for it being only PCI, that really doesn’t even matter. There’s virtually nothing you’d *have* to use through PCI-X in a desktop, and since PCI Express is the coming standard, PCI-X is dead as the upgrade path.
I’m sorry, but I really like to right click. Why build that function into the OS if you don’t sell a mouse to use it. Also, where the hell is the scroll whell? Come on Steve, throw us a freaking bone here.
Also, IMO, these don’t match the new G5 systems very well.
I was hoping for a firm date for Panther. 10.3 would have been way more exciting for me than the new PowerBook model. The one button mouse is a non-story. Apple is being incredibly stubborn by not offering customers a more functional Apple branded mouse.
This may be a bit off topic …. but I’ve always wondered if Mac OSX has virtual desktops like Linux DEs.
This is not flamebit or anything …… just an innocent question.
Not having that is just plain stupid at this point. If required, make it an upgrade option for $5. You can’t tell me that right-clicking on the dock to get the popup menus isn’t faster and easier than click & hold or click+shift.
I thought that they were supposed to reached 3ghz by the end of this year.
They really need to upgrade to a two button mouse.
The price drop on the 17″ PowerBook is nice especially if you are an EDU customer. The other 17″ laptops out there look comical in comparison.
It would have been nice to get a illuminated keyboards across the board.
Mobile Radeon 9600 on the 15″ and 17″ models is a very nice surprise! I expected the 9200 at the most. There might be some gaming possibilities but a PC laptop would still be better.
3GHZ by next summer? That would be great as long as they aggessively update the G5s. They really should drop duals across the line and hopefully there will be an across the board update at MWSF in 2004.
Very nice updates overall. iTMS for Europe is still MIA!
actually, if you try it, click and hold is not so much different than right click, and it is easier to understand for computer users. has anyone ever noticed that unless you are a power user, no one uses the right mouse button in windows!!
and they end up not even noticing it.
just saying “click and hold” is much easier of an idea for people to grasp that to say “right click”
and the click and hold idea is even better than right click because all you need to do to select something is take your finger off the button and it is selected.
so, explain to me why 2 buttons is more elegant than one?
one mouse button is much more Orthogonal than 2 buttons.
I would like to add though, that it would be nice if you could bring up the context menu anywhere from a click and hold.
Try reading the transcript again. Steve stated that within the year the G5 would be at 3GHZ.
Within the year means that he has 1 year from the announcement date to get it right. Not within the close of 2003 (the current year). Subtle, but you have to read carefully!
I’m not sure if I’m the only one here, but this annoucement isn’t anything big in my opinion. I was kind of hoping for the lendary, “one more thing”. This upgrade of the powerbook line isn’t “one more thing” it was “this is expected”. They could have annouced this just on the website, talk about a waste of money pushing this for a huge expo. All I’m saying, all the hype for something very little, in my opinion.
I can’t believe somebody is trying to defend he one button mouse. heheh. good god people, yes, apple makes some interesting hw, but you cna at least be honest enough with yourself to accept that one button mouse is absolutely retarded. Ok, so it may be “easier”, seeing as one button is less to think about than 2 buttons. So i guess that we should only have one OS, as all these options just confuse users.
hey, I use a 2 button mouse with my Mac, but you can not deny that 80% of PC users do not even touch their right mouse button.
why have it then? why not add the functionality to a one button mouse?
I like my right mouse button, but my mom (who is not a tech retard or anything) does not get the point of it and just ignores the fact that there is one, preferring to use the window menus, in which case, a global menu as in OS X makes more sense because everything is always in the same place.
and even control click makes a lot of sense.
when you are using a mouse, one hand is still on the keyboard, how hard is it to hit control with one hand and click with the other? you don’t have to move your mouse fingers then.
When I got my windows system I replaced my mouse with a Logitech 3 button Wheel mouse. The fact is Apple is producing a one button mouse. It is a different platform and therefore it works different than a windows machine. If you don’t like the mouse just like on a Windows box replace it with the one you feel comfortable with.
Regarding the conference in Paris. I am happy with the announcement of the new Powerbook product line. Overall i’m pleased with Apples effords and enhancments.
Funny how everytime Apple release or updates a product the mouse button debate comes up. Why not offer a choice? The OS supports multi buttons, so on laptops and desktops give the user a choice and see what the market chooses. Forget the debate about eligance etc just let the users decide.
“I can’t believe somebody is trying to defend he one button mouse. heheh. good god people, yes, apple makes some interesting hw, but you cna at least be honest enough with yourself to accept that one button mouse is absolutely retarded. Ok, so it may be “easier”, seeing as one button is less to think about than 2 buttons. So i guess that we should only have one OS, as all these options just confuse users.”
So, you’re saying that for mice–there should be no choice–all mice should be two-button. But you are in favor of diversity and options? Apple is the only maker of a one-button mouse to preserve the option, and they support 3rd party manufacturers who want to provide other options. Get it? Don’t want it, don;t get it. Don’t whine about people who actually understand the logic, appreciate the simplicity, or prefer the option… Because it is an OPTION.
yeah, thats great, except that it is kind of hard to offer 2 different models of laptops based solely on the mouse button.
is the control key really that far from the mouse pad?
What happened to the 1MB of L3 Cache? I did notice that the L2 is now at 512k…
I can dispute that 80% of computer users don’t touch their right mouse button. Maybe in 1997, but now almost everyone uses it. And absolutely everyone, from novice to expert, uses the scroll wheel if it’s there, and when you have to go without it, it’s very frustrating.
Most laptops are fairly modular (if your mouse goes bad they don’t have to replace the whole chasis). They would have to have a connector on the systemboard that could accept the multibutton input. It would be no problem to have the assembler grab and install part A or part B depending on the customer’s desire. I bet you would have quite a pile of single button mouse pads left over at the end of the day.
Or better yet for Apple they could also just sell the multi-button pad as after market item. More profit for Apple and more choice for the customer.
And yes you can buy 3rd party mice with buttons and wheels but I would like my 6 button 2 scroll wheel mouse to have that Apple fit and finish.
I support a network full of Social workers.
mabye 5 of them, out of 100 or so know what the right mouse buttonis for, and if I told the ones who did not know what it was for, they would just stare at me like they did not get it, or “please don’t make this even more confusing”
I will agree with you that the wheel is nice, but again, even that is not used my most people (but it does enjoy a much larger usage than does the right mouse button.)
well with the doubling of the L3 cache, and hopfully a new cacheing algorithm, they eliminated the need for it.
madmax: Sadly apples does not suport VD’s. I hope this will come in the future. Today though there are I believe two different “solutions” to this problem.
Has anyone driven a car lately? They’ve got, like, *three* control stalks! Each one has several controls on it — one for the up-down axis, one for the rotational axis, as well as buttons on the end. There are at least two, sometimes even *three* pedals! And the steering wheel goes in two directions! Why not just let the steering wheel go in one direction (counter-clock-wise) and have everybody go in a full circle to turn right? I mean, one direction is much more orthogonal than two!
C’mon! First, orthogonality has nothing to do with the number of items, but how interrelated those items are. In two-mouse-button systems, one mouse button does one thing, the other does something entirely different. Overloading a single mouse-button to do two different things is *less* orthogonal, not more. Second, this pampering to brain-dead users is disgusting. My mom, who is afraid of computers, has no problem understanding the idea of of the right-mouse button and the context menu. In fact, she quite likes it because that way she doesn’t have to go to the main menu to copy/paste. People really aren’t as stupid as UI designers seem to think, so lets not make all users inefficient just to cater to the lowest common denominator…
“I thought that they were supposed to reached 3ghz by the end of this year.”
I think it was within ‘one’ year, not by the end of the year.
Mmmmm. That 15 inch Powerbook is triggering my Mac Lust again. I noticed the hard drive is 5400 RPM. Nice. And a decent amount of RAM in the standard package too.
I can see where Apple’s desire to stay with the one-button mouse is coming from, but it would be nice if they offered an official Apple multibutton mouse. Hopefully the 3rd party manufacturers will expand their Bluetooth peripheral offerings.
What I’d like to have is a Bluetooth version of the Logitech Trackman Wheel (a cordless thumb trackball) to use with one of these Powerbooks when using it hooked up to my 21 inch monitor at home. My surfing posture at home is slouched down in the chair with my feet up on the desk and the cordless trackball mouse on my stomach. I’ve found it greatly reduces the strain on my arm and wrist. As for my back …
Are these new PBs available now in the Apple stores or just on the web site?
Hehe.. I comprehend my logic just fine. I didn’t say anythign about forcing people to do one thing or the other. But no matter how you swing it, one mouse button, as a default, is retarded, and completely so. And youre nonsense about 80% people not using the second mouse button was pulled out of your butt. The most atrocious thing regarding apple and one button mouse is in terms of the laptops…One button trackpad!? THAT is forcing. If they wanted to offer the option of using only one button, they’d ship two (or more) buttons and let the user NOT use the second one. I kove my powerbook to death, especially since I ditched osx in favor of mandrake 9.1. Normally I have a 3 button mouse jacked into it, but when I am out being all mobile and using the trackpad, I am reminded as to just how lame Apple is in their sticking to one button trackpads. Evil.
Whatever. In response to the “oh no, not another mouse button debate” comment, its hardly a debate. One button is dumb. Most normal people agree. I only posted to this article because somebody tried to defend the one button thing, which made me laugh.
Grrr. The 5400RPM 80 gig drive is a $125 option. Standard is 4200RPM.
I hate it when they do that.
Was Applecare always $349 for the powerbooks? It is now. It’s only $249 for the iBooks and G5s.
Mac Lust wearing off. I don’t like being nickle-and-dimed.
PS: The 512MB is 2x256MB DIMMS so upgrading RAM later wastes one of those DIMMS. A single 512MB DIMM is $100 extra.
One button trackpads are not the problem. Since the keyboard/trackpad are so close together, it’s a tiny movement to hold down ctrl and click the pad. A movement which quickly becomes second nature.
When you separate the mouse/keyboard, the reaching to hold down a key becomes more of a pain, and I would definately favour a multi-button mouse.
This one mouse button thing could be better but its not a big deal.
At work almost all of the graphic designers use a one button mouse. There are those who use trackballs and two button mice but the end product is the same and production is not affected or enhanced either way.
Besides in a heavy workflow at least for Mac users you almost always have one hand on the mouse and one hand on the keyboard. Rarely will you see an expert level designer or operator “mouse” his way through a layout. Its too slow.
The only reason I’ve had to use a two button mouse is for games but at the same time once you get used to a two button mouse it can be difficult to go back to a one button mouse.
Its also true that a majority of PC users do not know what right click is, anyone thats worked in a helpdesk or support environment can attest to that.
“Has anyone driven a car lately? …”
Has anyone pointed with their index finger lately? It does this one thing, it indicates what you are pointing at. Oh, except when you “right-point”. Then what happens is you get a list of all sorts of information and options, which, by the way, change depending on what you are pointing at or where you happen to be standing when you are pointing. Any idiot can figure that out! 🙂
The mouse is a metaphor for pointing. The car analogy isn’t a good fit, sorry. People can walk up to a computer having never used one before and easily see what the mouse does. One has to pass exams of knowledge and skill to drive a car. The car is not a metaphor for anything we do naturally.
Don’t assume average users care about more than the most obvious functions and uses for a computer, because they don’t. Even though “right clicking” is easily explained and certainly ~100% of people could see the benefit with a 15 min tutorial, the “point” is right clicking is not a natural extension of what the mouse does, so why muck with the metaphor to satisify the minority of users (i.e geeks like us) when the majority don’t care?
–happily using my 2-button scroll wheel mouse on my Mac.
The “replace if you don’t like” way requires a customer to pay for an unneeded peripherial. If I would ever buy Apple, I would dump their mouse (VNCing to Windows or connecting to remote X on Unix machines with a single button sucks), their keyboard (since they don’t offer a board with cyryllic letters on keys in Canada), the CD-ROM drive would sit useless (I have more then enough of them in my home network, and they are used once a month). And that’s just me – lots of people already have spare video cards, memory or hard drives. If they now decided to cater to geeks with introduction of OS X, why not make a product that we might actually want to buy? 😛
I don’t think it is a debate about the merits of a two button mouse. I think what the majority of us want is an Apple branded two button scroll wheel mouse as an option. Why we want this is because it will be of Apple quality construction. I have a 17″ PB and when you are using the trackpad the one button isn’t a big deal but when I use an iLamp with the Pro Mouse I would really like a “normal” mouse.
Just hoping for a genuine Apple 2 button mouse.
“If they now decided to cater to geeks with introduction of OS X, why not make a product that we might actually want to buy?”
They didn’t pick the underpinnings of OS X to cater to geeks, and it isn’t the market they are catering to at all. It’s a side benefit.
But they really, REALLY have no intention of catering to anyone who wants to strip the Mac down to nothing or use a different keyboard.
Note: last anonymous is me.
I often hold a cookie, apple (the chewy one), phone or mug in my hand while working with computer. Isn’t it dumb to put down that thing just to call up a context menu when I have about 4 spare fingers on my mouse hand?
As for naturality of interfaces, till we get rid of that unnatural keyboard with a hundred of buttons, any arguments on (un)naturality of right button just sound stupid. Computers just aren’t intuitive.
Oh, I mean the shawcable one
They didn’t pick the underpinnings of OS X to cater to geeks, and it isn’t the market they are catering to at all. It’s a side benefit.
G5 is marketed as a scientific workstation with Unix-like OS, right? How more geek can you go?
But they really, REALLY have no intention of catering to anyone who wants to strip the Mac down to nothing or use a different keyboard.
That’s what I don’t like. Being a person that needs a keyboard other then their default makes me someone who is not wanted as a customer? Well, that should explain their market share.
“G5 is marketed as a scientific workstation with Unix-like OS, right? How more geek can you go?”
Have you seen the commercial? Average joe, average house, G5 in the bedroom, wife in the kitchen…
They are not marketing this as a workstation for scientific use. Are they selling it to that market–hell yeah, it’s a natural. But there has been exactly one ad marketing to Unix geeks–a small print one over a year ago.
“That’s what I don’t like. Being a person that needs a keyboard other then their default makes me someone who is not wanted as a customer? Well, that should explain their market share.” No, it means you aren’t being “catered” to. Who decides to cater to the Canadian dude who wants a Cyrillic keyboard and nothing in the box? Hmmm? If you want a Cyrillic keyboard, why don’t you buy through an Apple Store for any of the countries whose primary language uses the Cyrillic alphabet?
I didn’t see any commercials for G5 since I don’t watch TV now (by the way, are 17″ powerbooks marketed to dwarves?). Apple mentions professional audio/video and scientific apps on the G5 PowerMac page, and doesn’t mention “home things” like CD burining, virus free existence and iApps. It definitely doesn’t feel like a Joe Average machine.
As for Cyryllic keyboard, I already jumped through all those hoops and got several generic cyryllic ones. All I need is a keyboardless machine. Two PC shops within walking distance can offer me one. Now how do I get a Mac with no keyboard? It’s not like it is a very hard to make item
Even the avarage apple user can handle the 101 buttons on the keyboard so why should they limit their mouse button to one?
You aren’t buying a Mac because a $30 keyboard is included?
Really? Buy the Mac, send me the keyboard, and I’ll give you thirty bucks if it’ll shut you up about Apple not catering to you.
More like $50 keyboard, $50 mouse, CD-ROM (let’s say $40). Now convert it into our Canadian Monopoly money, and it’s at least $200.
Apple includes X11 support, and a UNIX terminal, yet they can’t offer a two-button scrolling mouse as even an option? The reason Apple still sticks to one-button mice is because it is Steve Jobs’ personal preference, nothing more.
One drawback to 2-button mice during Powerpoint presentations. Almost all presenters hit the wrong button once in a while and end up with this ugly menu on the screen. Most disconcerting and impossible to get rid of quickly. Does Windows allow the use of 1-button mouse or make both buttons do the same on clicking? Its true Mac users can use both hands while using the computer. For e.g. I use command (ie Apple) + C for copy & command + V for paste. When my PC-using colleague comes by he insists I do a right click for copy and paste although similar commands (control + C/V) can also do the same chores on PCs. It appears that most PC-users are so habituated with the right click, they do not even know that the PC can allow one to use alternative shortcuts to do the same chores. It is OK for Apple to make 2-button mice (I use a 2-button with scroll wheel at home with my Powerbook) but 1 button is all one needs to get the job done on a Mac- it is simpler by design. More is not always = better:-)
Sure, sometimes you don’t need context menu. But sometimes you do. Right mouse button also allows to use things like mouse gestures (Opera uses those, and I can’t live without them). Middle button allows easy two-dimensional scrolling. It’s really hard to do lots of stuff with a single button (and yes, I do know shortcuts).
Heres some thoughts for you all:
firstly the mouse.
1) Why does apple need to produce 2 or 3 button mice? logitech (relabled as microsoft if you wish) produce them cheaply and they would be competing for something that isnt really that important.
2) With regard to laptops – most people i know who have a laptop have gotten used to tapping the pad for click. As OS X is open source, it shouldnt be to hard for a keernel hacker to write a special mouse driver (patch) that recognises when the trackpad is being used, and converts the button on the trackpad to right click, thus givving you left click via tapping and right click with the button.
As some people have mentioned, the l2 caches is now bigger and faster (DDR) – you would also want to notice that the 15″ laptops RAM is now ALSO DDR, so most of the advantage of l3 is gone (seing as it sits on bus its halfway to the memory anyway).
and with that, im off to get a 15″
“The reason Apple still sticks to one-button mice is because it is Steve Jobs’ personal preference, nothing more.”
No, actually, there are plenty of reasons. Windows throws every possible command into a context menu; this is very much against the design of Apple UI, but if right-clicking were possible every where users would be pissed when there was only one or two options instead of the whole app menu. How would Apple handle the logistical nightmare of packaging both options? Remember, many resellers only get a handful of gear. Wouldn’t you be pissed if you went into the store and wanted a two-button kit, but the owner told you: “Sorry, only got three left and they’re all one button” or conversely, you want the one button, but the owner is a Unix “geek”/PC user who only stocks two-button kit.
And that’s a good question: you all bitch and moan about the lack of two buttons, but isn’t it a much bigger issue that there aren’t very many functions available in the context menu in the first place?
And Kobold, now you’re bitching for a three button mouse? Why don’t you cry to the PC manufacturers then? Sorry, but your expectations aren’t everybody’s, they aren’t even close to most people.
Waaaa, waaaa, waaaaa–this topic is retarded!
Today, almost every mouse on the market has 2 buttons and a scroll wheel that also works as third button. Is there something wrong with it? Is it hard to get or something?
I have no problems with Apple not selling my a mouse with two buttons and a wheel. I can get it elsewhere. What I do have problems with is not selling a machine without keyboard and mouse. They got enough markup already – I won’t buy components I don’t need at all to pay for someone’s Ferrari.
“Today, almost every mouse on the market has 2 buttons and a scroll wheel that also works as third button.”
And most computers are running Windows. Is that an argument that OS X should be scrapped for Windows?!
Stop crying. You’ve got a pile of three button mice next to your computer. They all plug into the Mac. They all work.
Sell the keyboard and the mouse. Get $60 back. If you think Apple would cut like $200 bucks off the price if they eliminated these two cheap components your smoking crack.
I deal with users all day on the phone. Not all users understand the scroll wheel and not all users use their right mouse button.
I have to explain the concept a lot more than one would expect and because of it have changed my troubleshooting techniques to include the explanation. “Right click with the right mouse button.” Most of the Mac users I know buy their own third party mouse with multiple buttons, scroll wheels, etc… Dealing with Mac users on the phone is a bit easier because I can throw the whole right mouse button out. It works either way.
Once I had a PC user who switched her buttons so that the left mouse button was really the right mouse button. Talk about frustrating!
Really… The whole 1 button mouse argument is the biggest pile of cow manure. Using the control, option and command keys in conjunction with the mouse is simple and only the technologically retarded (most PC users I’ve met) can’t figure it out.
I’ve got a logitech optical mouse with two buttons and a scroll wheel, when I jump on a Mac with only one mouse button my productivity doesn’t slow down because I’m not stymied by the lack of a button. I don’t gawk at something that is common place.
Once you know how to use it it’s SIMPLE, stupid.
Those two cheap parts are $50 each in US and $70 in Canadian Apple Store. Total for $140 Canadian. Add the optical drive.
And why should I buy stuff I don’t need and then run around and find someone out of 2% Mac people that I can sell it to? As opposed to getting exactly what I need in a PC shop?
If you want an analogy, I don’t offer to replace OS X with Windows. I want Apple to offer components in a modular manner, so that a customer may decide if they want OS X, Apple mouse or Apple hard drive on their machine.
Think of it this way…
The one button mouse is a spare you keep in the drawer. Any USB mouse in the PC aisle will work.
Get over it. I swear, the mouse isn’t something to get your panties in a bind over.
Why do PC users mistakenly think you should use your Mac like a PC? They’re two entirely different beasts. Sure, a two button mouse is great… but on the Mac it’s non-essential and is a luxury.
I have more then enough old mice and Latin-only keyboards for spares already. I don’t want to pay for another ones.
I don’t care if Apple considers a real mouse a luxury or not. Just give me a machine without peripherials, I’ll pick what I want.
“in Canadian Apple Store” So what? You don’t think there is a further mark up when they are sold individually and have their own packaging? Have you been in reality long?
$50 U.S. packaged and sold individually means that they would eliminate $25 to $30 bucks tops from the cost of a PM or whatever. Simple.
“And why should I buy stuff I don’t need and then run around and find someone out of 2% Mac people that I can sell it to?”
Because you claim to want to buy a Mac but you are being impeded by $60 worth of gear!
Conversely why should Apple package a special individually wrapped and packaged kit jsut for your whiny behind?
Get what you want at a PC shop, but that means you don’t want a Mac and you have nothing to whine about…
“If you want an analogy, I don’t offer to replace OS X with Windows. I want…”
I want, I want, I want… I know that’s your point. Your rationale and logic for a multi-button mouse was that 95% of computers had them, which is not a rationale or a logical reasoning for your argument whatsoever. That same argument would say that anything that is more popular is the only option worth having. That’s pathetic.
“so that a customer may decide if they want OS X, Apple mouse or Apple hard drive on their machine.” Jesus Christ, now you expect them to package their machines without hard drives? Apple is NOT a build-to-order assembler. Get over it. They do not have the volumes, the production capacity, the product line to make it feasible to make every single machine and component BTO. Very simple. THat request would bankrupt them in about 2 quarters. Apple is not a bto assembler. They actually R&D, develop, and build computers and software. They aren’t one fo the hundreds of MS OEMs, they aren’t a gray box builder…
Stop crying and go buy a PC. If you seriously want a Mac, you can recoup from the limitations you are faced with by selling unnecessary components. Otherwise, you aren’t in the market for a Mac and have nothing to bitch about.
I don’t like to talk to those who throw around words like “whining” and “bitching” at people who like one product in bundle, don’t like the other and therefore would like to see bundle separated. And I don’t need people like you to point me at what I should do. I can figure that out myself without your “frienly assistance”.
Apple does offer built to order machines, just look at their site. If they can replace an 80 gig drive with a 160 gig drive, why can’t they remove the drive completely? Same with video cards, same with memory, and so on. One doesn’t need any R&D to allow a customer to install a device with standard interface. And I, as a possible customer, don’t like companies that force me to jump through the hoops to select the components I need.
You are whining and bitching.
My point about their R&D has nothing to do with the options you are asking for: my point was Apple cannot accomodate every possible configuration; it’s a logistical impossibility for a company with relatively low production volumes and tight channels.
As I said, Apple isn’t going to provide a 100% configurable system EVER so you either don’t want a Mac and hence have no reason to bitch or you do want a Mac and are crying over what would amount to a $100 in savings… You can sell that gear if you want so… What’s the problem?
You are the typical person who wants to run a Mac OS on a PC, claims to want a Mac but wants the Mac to be a PC, and then spends two years whinign about Apple the company when all that time spent whining would equal about $100 bucks… so if you’d stop crying, you could afford the Mac.
Listen to that if you want to or not, but it is the truth.
The Cadillac I want wouldn’t have automatic windows, AC, power seats, electronic tuning in the radio, etc…
I’m sick and tired of the fact that Cadillac doesn’t offer a car with manual amenities. Not everybody needs all these electronic gizoms and buttons… manual devices work just as well.
I want a Cadillac, but I can’t buy one until they offer ME the car that I WANT… and they don’t even though plenty of people deal with unrolling their own windows and can slide their own seat forward and can tune a radio station without a digital button. God damn it, when is Cadillac going to offer a car where all the features aren’t electronically-driven!!!
Sound familiar, Kobold? Sound whiny? This is EXACTLY what you are doing.
That “not needed component replacement/removal markup” is on top of regular Apple markups on memory, hard drives, video cards and other components. And you know what? It adds up. And I got limited resources, just as about every agent on the marketplace.
Your car analogy is void. I was trying to replace a limited component with a better one, while you reversed the whole thing.
And if you use the word “whine” one more time, I’ll just cease talking to you.
both of you shut up!!!!
Anon, shut up, you are bitching about this guy bitching.
Kobold, you don’t want a mac.
Current ones – no (I won’t buy a Dell, Sony or HP, too).
A dual lower-frequency G5 barebone box for a reasonable price – I’ll be first in line.
Question: Have you ever tried to buy a PC without a keyboard and mouse?
The only way I’ve every seen it done was to go down to the local build your own computer store and purchase everything in it’s own box. Gateway, Dell, and even the local white boxes come with a keyboard and mouse!
Why do you have a whole drawer full of mice and keyboards? I’m betting it’s because they came with your PC and you replaced them with something you like beter.
This Mac has a Kensington 2-button track ball, and my laptop has a 4-button + scroll wheel optical mouse (I should change them some time, I miss the scroll wheel).
I’m a touch typist and use the keyboard more then the mouse so, I don’t care if the mouse has 1 or 2 buttons (I do like scroll wheels; there nice when browsing the web or reading long documents). Because I’m a touch typist, I find most keyboards useless and need to find a better keyboard no mater which computer I buy.
My bigest compaint about Apples is that they aren’t very keyboard friendly. With Windows, I can normally just unplug the mouse and not touch it; with Apple I need to use the mouse for a lot more functions.
It does surprise me that Apple’s engineers can’t find an elegant solution to this situation. Replaceable mouse buttons would be one way to do it.
In 1984 when few people had seen a computer let alone a mouse, having only one mouse button made sense. But it is not 1984, and I assert that the method for displaying the contextual menu in OSX is more difficult for users to learn than right-clicking on an item.
I can just imagine new users sitting down trying to figure it out. “Ok, let’s see, is it command-click, option-click, shift-option-click, control-click. ARGH!”
Apple needs to “Think Different” and “Switch” to a two button mouse. That’s just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Most of my peripherials are from old machines no one needs. A couple of keyboards were bought because I could not get Cyryllic keyboards at that moment, I replaced them later.
Local shops can sell me whatever I want. Brands… never cared a lot about brands – they love nonstandard components with impossible to find drivers too much, they make you pay for Windows and put it in a hidden HDD partition instead of giving real discs, etc. I’d rather assemble my own.
WOW! Apple speed bumps the PowerBooks across the line, lowers the price on the 17″, updates the 15″ and uses Radeon 9600 GPUs and people nitpick about the one button mouse.
People who have used a Mac will know that a majority of Finder operations do not even rely on having a second mouse button so why have one? Don’t expect the right click menus to be like Windows either. They are much less fully featured than Windows.
“Local shops can sell me whatever I want. Brands… never cared a lot about brands – they love nonstandard components with impossible to find drivers too much, they make you pay for Windows and put it in a hidden HDD partition instead of giving real discs, etc. I’d rather assemble my own.”
If you would rather assemble your own, good for you. Your arguments here don’t make sense. Apple can not and will not be your computer spare parts dealer. People go to Apple for a complete solution just like they go to Dell/HP/IBM.
You obviously aren’t interested in Apple because you aren’t even interested in any x86 based brandname machines. So please let some decent discussion occur here at osnews and stop wasting peoples time and storage space.
I really want a bluetooth keyboard, however I want my MS natural (the original one) and my original mouse, so does any one know of an ps/2 to bluetooth converter?
Note: I voteon a 3 button scroll wheel controller. After many hours of visio and word that scroll wheel to scroll documents a zoom level was just tooo nice.
I am really sorry for wasting bytes of everyone’s storage space, but I don’t hate all brands. If Apple includes install CDs (from what I know, it does) and uses components that do work on never versions of their OS and some other OSes (I know it does), this point doesn’t apply to them.
After debating the issue of 1-2 button mice for Apple for years, I’ve come to the conclusion that the best compromise would be if Apple came out with a one and a half button mouse. That way both camps would be somewhat appeased without pissing off the other too much.
I’m with Kobold somewhat. Personally, I’ve been looking at iMacs and I really liked them, but I wished that Apple would let me buy an iMac without a screen – I like the monitor part, just not the screen. Instead, I would like to fit my own – I blow glass as a hobby, and lately I’ve been generating some amazingly flat pieces of glass… it would come in handy with an iMac without the expensive Apple screen.
regarding your point of unbundling the hardware to order (ie shipping without a drive), I suspect (and I may be wrong) that this makes life alot simpler where warranties and support are concerned.
eg. install a third party device in a way that may invalidate the existing warranty, it messes up the machine, you take the device out and run to apple saying my machine is broke, you have to prove you didnt blah blah blah…
long story short, I think its just less head ache, not from a technology perspective, rather with regards to the terms and conditions of the sale and the post sale service.
just a thought…..
1. The scrollwheel is a basic human right by now. If you don’t believe me, grab a typical Linux/Windows user and give him a non-scrollable mouse to use for a month – they will strangle you with the mouse cord.
I mean, adding a scrollwheel to a 1-button mouse isn’t any harder than adding it to a 2-button mouse.
2. Games. Having 5 bindable mouse buttons (left-click, right-click, scroll-click, scroll-up, scroll-down) is really nice for games. If there are any Mac gamers out there, how do you play with one button?
3. Some programs (Blender comes to mind) take really good advantage of 2-buttons-and-scrollwheel. I suspect the only reason Photoshop etc. are one-button oriented is that
conservative Mac users are a large part of their market.
4. If you run X, scrollwheel (or middle button) click means paste. You would be surprised how convenient that is. I suspect many (most?) Mac users run some X applications…
1. Linux/Windows people are angry people, huh? Oh well.
Are you asking for a scroll wheel, two buttons, or five? What?
2. And you aren’t bitching about every other computer vendor for selling two-button mice? Irrelevent argument. And trying to make it, just makes you sound like a hypocrite.
3. Yes, and that’s why I asked: isn’t the really problem the whole philosophy of minimizing context menues the issue, not the mouse? Apps that take a great deal of advantage of context menues do so. What does that have to do with the packaged mouse though? It’s much more related to the philosophy of the UI design. Win Photoshop uses context menus about as much as the Mac and in soem… no great advantage though. Other apps do heavily despite the mouse that comes with a Mac; they aren’t limited by the shipping mouse if they really want to add advantages through context menus.
4. Neither many nor most Mac users use X apps. If they do, they probably do use a two, three, or more button mouse.
You’re right… The more buttons the merrier.
You don’t sound too familiar with the Mac platform, so take some advice from some of the Mac users on this board… The lack of a right mouse button isn’t an issue on the Mac. There are keyboard modifiers and other tricks that simulate the vaunted “right click.”
To answer your questions:
>>1. The scrollwheel is a basic human right by now. If you don’t believe
>>me, grab a typical Linux/Windows user and give him a non-scrollable
>>mouse to use for a month – they will strangle you with the mouse
Give me any user that is used to using a scroll wheel (whether they be Mac/PC/Linux) and they will strangle you. Don’t forget that there is a very healthy third party mouse market out there. Mac users who want a second, third, fourth, fifth, whatever mouse button buy their mice. I have a Logitech OptiMouse with Scroll and a right mouse button.
Why should Apple strangle third party developers unnecessarily? Everyone jumps down Apple’s throat for being “proprietary.” Yet the mouse market for Macs is a healthy, non-proprietary option for those users who don’t want a single button mouse.
>>2. Games. Having 5 bindable mouse buttons (left-click, right-click,
>>scroll-click, scroll-up, scroll-down) is really nice for games. If there
>>are any Mac gamers out there, how do you play with one button?
Generally there are keyboard modifiers to simulate a right mouse button. Again, you assume that there is no third-party market for mice. If you’re a serious Mac gamer you probably have a thrid-party mouse with all the buttons you desire.
>>3. Some programs (Blender comes to mind) take really good
>>advantage of 2-buttons-and-scrollwheel. I suspect the only reason
>>Photoshop etc. are one-button oriented is that conservative Mac
>>users are a large part of their market.
If you have a two-button mouse there are plenty of programs that will take advantage of them on the Mac. I’m not sure why PC users have this all or not mentality in regards to the Mac platform. Generally, there are multiple ways to do something on a Mac. The user can decide how to do the process. The computer doesn’t dictate to the user how to do the process.
>>4. If you run X, scrollwheel (or middle button) click means paste. You
>>would be surprised how convenient that is. I suspect many (most?)
>>Mac users run some X applications…
Suprise, suprise. if you have a mouse with a scroll wheel, or middle button on a Mac with X11 installed (it’ll be installed by default w/ 10.3) it *gasp* pastes. But if you have a single button mouse, hold down option while you click and *gasp* it pastes.
The problem with most PC users that come and use the Macintosh is that they expect it to work like Windows. Guess what?! It doesn’t. Yes, both OSes are very similar now, but to really learn how to use a Mac you’ll have to let go of your prejudices and actually learn the machine/OS.
Single button mice are not a deterent on the Mac platform. The OS is designed with a single button mouse in mind but is open enough to support multi-button mice. If you want more buttons, what is another $20 dollars to you?