Within three years, most bank machines that dispense cash will run on the Windows operating system, according to a study published last week.
Within three years, most bank machines that dispense cash will run on the Windows operating system, according to a study published last week.
I have not read the article yest but could not stop myself from posting. I friend of mine said in casual conversationt of being a geek that he and some friends went up to an ATM once and saw a Windows CE screen or somethin along those lines booting.
Metro305
I just hope it doesn’t ask me what language I want to use. I hate when I have choose every single time when it seems like my card could store that information.
…Microsoft Wallet?
(ripped off comment found on /.)
Most ATMs running Windows? And that choice is based on what? I hope the banks know what they are doing!
My brother had his entire account emptied (stolen) via ATM transaction. In fact there has been quite a lot of money theft lately – by way of ATM machines – as reported in the news. I’m not trying to make a wise crack at Windows’ security, but honestly, when dealing with someone else’s money it requires a lot of trust. I trust my money with my bank because well… I have to, hiding money under the mattress is too old fashion. But what’s to convince me to trust Microsoft with my money when I don’t trust them with simple data on my computer?
And I think it’s really inappropriate for an ATM to also be dispensing “lottery tickets and soft drinks.” It’s bad enough to have to wait in line to get money, I really don’t want to be held up by someone complaining “This is not diet!” I just want to do my business and go, that also means I don’t want to be bothered by ads on the machine.
At least here in portugal ATM´s are already running on Windows NT 4.0 workstation. How secure they are : i don´t know !!
of worms and viruses that will slow traffic on the internet as it empties your bank account…
Had kept the ball rolling on OS/2. FWIW I think a lot of the ATMs are still running OS/2. I miss Warp!
We do network support for one of the biggiest bank in holland,
and i can assure you they are not running windows on their
transaction servers (they run IBM, Solaris, RedHat) so i do not believe this kind of research. I Might be that in the US banks are running Windows on their transaction servers but i also doubt that. So the fraise “They would prefer Windows, a platform they consider [ open ] in that it is compatible with their internal corporate networks” is completly bul****.
In light of all the viruses and worms and such, the idea of ATMs running Windows makes me uneasy..
There’s been strong rumours, from very credible sources, that the last blackout in the East coast had something to do with Windows. Dunno if it is true, but it wouldn’t surprise me.
“Roughly $1 trillion of ATM withdrawals will take place this year, with losses of only $15 million.”
If so, that loss is a spit in the bucket in the bigger picture. Do I believe its that low ?
Brian N
>We do network support for one of the biggiest bank in holland,
> and i can assure you they are not running windows on their
> transaction servers (they run IBM, Solaris, RedHat) so i do not
>believe this kind of research.
But if you work in Holland you should know they already use Windows in ATMs there – I’ve seen plenty of them, you see it’s windows when they’ve crashed…
It’s funny how I knew that immature linux geeks would start in with their nonsense about how ridiculously awful of an OS MS Windows is. Here’s a dose of reality: there are these guys at the bank who are very intelligent and educated who make the it decisions. I know this because banks handle money and money is considered very important and no one wants a fool making complex IT decisions like what OS ATM’s are going to run. These capable decision makers chose Windows because after an exhausting amount of research they determined that it is the most safe and practical solution available. Linux is certainly a useful and exciting operating system. But Windows obviously has its merits too or why else would so many corporations and individuals use it? Grow up.
not running NT 4 — so no news here…
Here in New York the machines that sell Subway cards run Windows 2000. I know this because I saw some technicians working on one of the machines, and the Win2K logon screen was clearly visible. Some time later I overheard a city official mention this fact during an interview.
I’m no fan of MS, but the vending machines work (although they do stop working regularly). For a big organization like the MTA it’s an expensive system to license, and I can only imagine the savings if they switched to something else.
But they are on a network, obviously, and I have to wonder what would happen if they were targeted by a malicious cracker.
*But Windows obviously has its merits too or why else would so many corporations and individuals use it?*
So many corporations and individuals use Windows because of decisions made way back in time when they decided to use MS-DOS and were then caught up in the cycle of ‘upgrade to this version as your version is no longer supported’, continuing on thru Windows when DOS went by the wayside…
Love ’em or hate ’em, Microsoft has us all by the danglies now!
Please insert you bank card.
*beep*
Not ready reading Card A
Abort, Retry, Fail?
If each ATM was firewalled so no data other than pure encrypted ASCII code could be transmitted between itself and the server, there should be no problem whatever the OS on the machine?
Networking in Windows is so insecure because of the amount of different possible network protocols and data types implemented. an ATM doesn’t need that.
Yes they are! For a long time now (InforCid quiosks too). I’ve seen some BSOD already, too!
Anyway this doesn’t mean they running Windows on their backend (I doubt it) but for some the Web is Windows too!!!
I’m not sure if OS is crucial when running an ATM. Actually I think that OS is crucial at all when doing any computing. Applications are more important. When I boot Linux it’s because I want to use apps that are there, not because I like the OS, same with Windows, or anything else.
ATM’s don’t have as big OS requirements, as corporate servers. All they do is pretty much run the same app 24/7. I’ll bet that even DOS could do that.
This article is strange. First there is the reference to “open technologies” when speaking about Windows. Then there is the comment that the version of Windows that will go on ATMs will be stripped down so as not to include “the browser” and other garbage. Didn’t Microsoft tell the DOJ that it was impossible to separate those entities? And lastly Bruce Schneier, (no Windows fan from my recollection), says that security is not an issue because the ATMs will be on private networks. So what’s the advantage of having Windows that can be integrated with other software if it’s going to be on a “locked down” system? I still don’t get it.
Don’t worry about the ATM’s running windows. I’ve helped on installs of quite a few ATM’s in the past 5 years. The setup is typically run as a non-priveleged user on the machine(admin has a seperate password)The system loads up windows, which then in turn loads the ATM software itself. The software handles the communications on a private network, encrypted to 3DES security. All communication from the keypads and card reader are encrypted to the processor also. Windows really doesn’t do much except provide the platform for the software to run on. These machines aren’t on public networks anyway. They are all rather secure. While you might see windows messages, the older OS/2 machines would give error messages also. It’s not like a hacker can sit at home and hack the ATM to give more money. Be more worried about someone stealing your ATM card (And NEVER write your pin number on the card!)
I know for a fact that many ATMs here in Spain are running with some sort of kit on top of ??-DOS. They could be crashed and a prompt accessed, but you couldn’t do anything too interesting anyway. We did not make those, but we did make some -for another company- based on OS/2.
Still, far more important than SO security sometimes is the things people think up. Like this bank that decided that blind people could have their card set so that they could enter 1111 -easier to type- instead of their PIN and still be accepted. Nice idea… but not when somebody set the system so that every card, unknowingly to the user, was set that way by default.
We’ve also done subway ticket kiosks for some cities (here and abroad). Some were based on Win2000 and some are based on Linux. The appearance to the user is exactly the same on both. In fact, there’s some places were some of the machines run W2k and some run Linux.
Both seem to be pretty stable and secure. (Next day after the launch of the new kiosks I saw some 5 or 6 around with a nasty Windows GPF, but never again after that.)
did you hear about a major car company having to scrap their MS embedded system because it was very unsafe for the occupants of the car.
who makes decisions like these? will they be sue-able when the ATMs go wrong, get hacked or are on downtime?
if my bank does this i will ask them to sign an agreement to compensate any losses on my part directly attributable to their use of MS on theri ATMs
t
HSBC for one runs OS/2 internally as well. What benefits it would get from changing its ATMs over to Windows ATM 2005 or whatever it will be called are not immediately obvious to me.
The reasons that a lot of banks are still running OS/2 is that they do not run off the shelf software. Most is custom written. Additionally, ATMs do not have to do a lot. They just read card data, verify input information and throw cash out. It does not require the latest whizz bang OS or hardware to run. In fact, a lot of ATMs are still running OS/2 v1.x. Reliability is much more important than being at the cutting edge.
Banks make money by running what works for them, not by listening to marketdroids.
The impetus to change will gather when it is clear that support for the OS is to cease or that current hardware becomes incompatible. 64-bit computing may be key to that, but it is far from certain that Microsoft is the future there.
No, the east coast blackout wasn’t caused by a windows machine failing.
IT was noted that a machine at one of the nuclear power facilities was running windows and had been compromised in late January.
For some unknown reason, this machine was connected to the net (Hello????) and got a virus or something along those lines. Yeah…I feel really safe knowing that…
I’m from Portugal, and here lots of ATM’s already run Windows. How do y know this? Well, sometimes they crash!
Here in Sweden i know that some of the ATM:s use Windows. A few times I’ve seen an error message that consist of a window with an exclamationmark and no text. An ATM in the swedish city Uppsala, got blown up. And after that the other ATM:s crashed randomly.
The most funny thing I have ever seen was at a bowling hall. There were a couple of friends that were playing bowling a Saturday evening, but after about half an hour the scoretable had gone into blue-screen-of-death. Some supportguys came to help them but had to reboot Windows and so the scoretable were erased and the couple went home with the heads down.
Lets face it MS geeks, the old Windows versions like 98 and ME were crap. XP is real nice, but MS has really cheated the money out of you!
…have the horsepower it takes for proper security?
Could have fooled me..
“Bank of America Corp., one of the nation’s largest banks, said many customers could not withdraw money from its 13,000 ATMs because of technical problems caused by the attack, according to The Associated Press. A spokeswoman, Lisa Gagnon, told the AP that the bank restored service to nearly all ATMs by late Saturday afternoon and that customers’ money and personal information had not been at risk.”
– http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/internet/01/25/internet.attack/
“It’s funny how I knew that immature linux geeks would start in with their nonsense about how ridiculously awful of an OS MS Windows is. Here’s a dose of reality: there are these guys at the bank who are very intelligent and educated who make the it decisions…”
My gramma used to work in a bank too, and, I can assure you, you have no way of knowing about the intelligence or decision-making ability of the higher-ups until you have to deal with them.
Don’t be surprised, pal, if the decision to use Windows got developed because the *common workers* at the banks are familiar with it already, and haven’t generally been exposed to much of anything else, except maybe OS/2 (why? Gee—I can’t imagnine why—maybe because the corporation owner is a *software company killer?*)
…anyway, no one will ever convince me that I can trust the decision-making ability of anyone, based on their rank. I’ve worked in too many places where such decisions have cost me dearly.
The one thing you *can* count on from banks, though, is conservatism. They are going to try to do what they view as safe, whether it actually is or not.
If Windows turns out to be a bad choice for ATM’s, you’ll find out about it, and the banks will change.
“I know this because banks handle money and money is considered very important and no one wants a fool making complex IT decisions like what OS ATM’s are going to run.”
This is a perfect example of someone who knows nothing about the way businesses usually choose their software. Individuals who know Information Technology very well are usually not those who choose software.
Managers choose software. Are you familiar with Dilbert’s Pointy-Haired Boss (PHB)? That’s the guy who makes purchasing decisions, not the person who actually understands the technology.
This situation is the reason why Microsoft has ANY significant share in the “server” market. Managers see T.V. commercials and print ads, believe the claims and make purchasing decisions.
I think this signals the coming apocalypse.
I can’t believe banks would do this. ATMs should be using a proprietary OS written specifically for that task. Not using a consumer OS that is target #1 in the hacking world.
Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Like it was mentioned here in an earlier post, here in Portugal they run NT 4. It’s funny going up to an ATM and seeing it’ display a Windows error msg
Scary is seeing it at an airport arrivals/departures screen…
DaaT
Wonder how long it will take to happen & with the security holes MS seems to announce every day, this sounds great.
people and businesses use windows because they think its the “standard” os to use. it got that way by having an easy to use interface with software that did the job, same with mac os. however that is not the case theres days anymore, linux has proven to be more stable and secure and is just as easy to use.
as i’ve experienced, here in Thailand, some banks use Windows + its scripting language (VBScript?) to serve customers.
how can i know that?
no need to be a great geek guy to know that,
since a “Internet Explorer Script Error” dialog appears at the ATM screen.
“Do you want to continue running script on this page?”
“Yes” / “No”
too bad, what i had was 0-9 numpad!!
—-
well, it’s the mistake of programmer.
but does Windows is reliable enough for this kind of duty?
any mechanism to prevent this kind of error?
an “out of order” of ATM cause lots lost to its bank.
no transaction, no fee.
the really bad thing is bad impression to its customer.
just my 2 satangs!
and here I was naively thinking that the Democrats and Republicans were the ones who would destroy the economy.
The day I go to my bank’s ATM and see a MS Windows(TM) logo… is the day I go back to stuffing my mattress.
Didn’t those terminator cyborgs have little windows logos on the side of their skulls? i think i saw one.
I’m surprised they don’t run QNX. Cheaper and much, much, much more reliable (nuclear plant-grade reliable), as well as designed specifically for embedded.
Exactly the point. I think Steve needs to realise that not everybody who is disagreeing with Windows on ATMs is a big Linux head. But why put the most hacked consumer OS in the world on an ATM? Maybe they could work out a contract with Microsoft to develop a propietary OS for ATMs.
Microsoft does to an extent have a lot intelligent people working for it. Unfortunately marketting and business people don’t write the sofware.
Besides Steve, by you labelling us a Linux heads you are being just as ignorant as the people that bash Micrsoft without question.
I clicked on the link provided by Aitvo and indeed, it was said that Bank of America’s customers couldn’t withdraw money from ATMs because of SQL Slammer. Then, why do some “security experts” argue that ATMs can’t be hacked ?
I’m a sysadmin and believe me, most of the time my boss takes decisions based on what his father in law tells him between two drinks, not on the documentation I give him.
Here we have financial institutions that on one hand pay a fortune to clean the mess caused by Windows malware on a monthly basis and on the other hand, decide to equip all their ATMs with another version of that same crappy software. Like Greg said, if those bankers where really interested in security and reliability, they would opt for an embedded OS like QNX. Free software would even allow them to really customize their installations.
The point about Windows being respectful of standards is utter stupidity. It shows that those who are in charge of our money don’t know anything about safety at all.
The reason they can pick a nullity such as Windows is impunity : no matter what silliness they’re up to, they won’t go to jail.
When I read the last statement made by Julie Davis, I laughed so hard my coworkers wondered what it was all about. Well, at least, it made my lunch break worthwile.
Steve said :
It’s funny how I knew that immature linux geeks would start in with their nonsense about how ridiculously awful of an OS MS Windows is. Here’s a dose of reality: there are these guys at the bank who are very intelligent and educated who make the it decisions. I know this because banks handle money and money is considered very important and no one wants a fool making complex IT decisions like what OS ATM’s are going to run. These capable decision makers chose Windows because after an exhausting amount of research they determined that it is the most safe and practical solution available. Linux is certainly a useful and exciting operating system. But Windows obviously has its merits too or why else would so many corporations and individuals use it? Grow up.
Well, I’ve worked in a few banks and you wouldn’t believe how widespread incompetence is in IT. That leaves a lot of room for politics in decision such as operating systems. Given the number of ATM I have seen, crashed with a nice blue screen, I can tell you that it is not necessarily a good and wise choice.
Anyway, 10 years ago, banks have massively moved away from stable dealing room unix workstations to, at the time, extremely unstable window 3.1. I have worked in dealing rooms and seen how long it took to Windows to catch up on things that were perfectly mature on Unix. So stop giving us the Linux geeks pitch.
Nothing is funnier then driving up to a Wells Fargo ATM and seeing a BSOD or a IE javascript error. How dod they ever intend on keeping these things secure?
I already saw one rebooting (cause it crashed) years ago…
had a big ‘microsoft’ logo on it.
Ahhh, the good old BSOD…
http://zem.squidly.org/bsod/
Please insert you bank card.
*beep*
Not ready reading Card A
Abort, Retry, Fail?
That’s MS-DOS, you insensitive clod
Has anyone posting here actually read the article ?
It says, essentially, that the version of Windows used for these future ATMs has virtually nothing to do with consumer versions of the OS, and given that it’s NT, it shoudl be fairly stable to start with. So driver problems, BSODs, etc… are no more of a problem than with Linux, and there will be neither Outlook nor an Internet connection to cause problems with viruses, worms, etc…
I’m amazed to see that the discussion immediately became a Windows bashing session, with little grounding in fact or on what was said in the article. This is not another Linux/MS desktop comparison, so why bring out the same tired and irrelevant arguments back out ?
Now, there may have been ATMs developped in the past based on Windows 95/98/ME, which could bring about BSODs, etc… and would deserve a good bashing, but, again, that is not the point here.
That’s funny, because I started to read this thread. Then it was time to go eat, so i went downstair to the cafeteria. I needed money So I’ve stopped at the ATM on my way there. The ATM was rebooting. First time ever I see that, so being curious, I waited a few seconds more. And I saw the cute OS/2 Warp logo. Which proves one thing, why would you upgrade to Windows XP/latest release for something that works well most of the time? Who cares if the ATM is down. There is usually more than one at bank branches. And here, there’s one at almost every 2-3 street corners. People should stop complaining just for the fun of complaining.
By the way, before some linux zealots flame me, I’ve been using *nix for 4 years now.
Some people just crack me up. I don’t know any ATM machines connected to the net, do you? Besides, Windows makes a good choice because migration from OS/2 to Windows is easier than, for example, the Mac or Linux or FreeBSD, etc. Porting ATM software should be easier too.
Sign of the times I suppose: “If it ain’t broke, then try to hire someone to fix it so that it will be.”
I agree with the folks who said QNX was the better option, but like others I just don’t understand why ATMs need upgrading at all unless they’re are a security risk (And anyone who’s withdrawn cash at 3am in a deserted city centre has already felt that security risk anyhow :>). Do we really need using the ATM to become a “customer experience”? Personally I want to walk up to the think, type in my pin and get some damn money. I don’t need fancy graphics, or colour screens, or dumbass questions like “Do you really want to withdraw this cash? Ok/Cancel” all wrapped up in a system that takes a time just short of eternity to draw text on screen. What’s next? Are we supposed to choose which bank to use based on quality of their antialiased fonts?
It brings to mind a program I saw recently, or rather a really small clip of a program I saw recently. Back in the 70s a company owned a little computer that printed out statements for their customers. It’s processing power was miniscule in comparison to even a desktop computer today, but it did its job and did it reliably. Anyhow, time goes by and they get sold on the idea that they need to “upgrade”. So they now have a modern computer with a modern operating system running a modern application that takes around 3 times longer to do the same job as the old dedicated computer and isn’t as reliable. Moral of the story: “Sometimes an upgrade is really a downgrade in bright new clothes”.
I’ve certainly seen this happen in the UK. Barclays certainly run either NT4 or 2000 — I’ve even seen one BSOD! I guess it’s not really that important which OS you use in an ATM considering they’re probably not connected to the Internet or even the same networks as desktop machines and use bespoke protocols to authenticate, etc. It’s probably more important to look at the machines used to serve on-line banking and desktop machines used in offices.
Most of the cash machines I’ve seen in the UK seem to be quite old (late-80s to early-90s). Does anyone what OS these use?
See
http://www.linux.org/people/banrisul_english.html
I would never trust in a bank with M$ ATMs. M$ systems are easy targets for hackers and viruses.
“I’m surprised they don’t run QNX. Cheaper and much, much, much more reliable (nuclear plant-grade reliable), as well as designed specifically for embedded.”
Ummm… I have personal experience with QNX at work. It is used in our Graco dispensing equipment. We have had some major problems. It could be the application. It could be the OS. Either way, it wouldn’t be my first choice for an ATM OS.
Hundred times better than Windows, in my opinion, though!
The people at the IT divisions of banks are not all that smart, and if they where they would not be using windows to power the ATMs.
That has to be the most stupid thing I have ever heard.
IBM has recommended that they use Linux for this purpose, but the powers that be at banks only do what their trade magazines tell them to, and guess who has a lot of pull with those publications…..
Jack In the Box uses Windows on their “Here’s what you ordered screen” (not sure what they are called). It had a BSOD when I pulled up to the drive-thru one night…..and then again on another night at a different Jack In The Box. I get a feeling that loading Windows on ATM machines is a bad idea.
Well, that’s it then. There’s not a snowball’s chance in hell I’m EVER owning an ATM card again. Haven’t had one in years cuz it makes it more of a pain to keep the checkbook straight, but this clinches it.
NEVER AGAIN! YOU HEAR ME BILL? NEVER!
This is typical of what I call “Overcomputing” – the use of 20-30 times more hardware than needed to do the simplest tasks.
There is NO need for the amount of hardware required to even run a ‘modern’ OS like Windows or Linux to do such a simple task as running an ATM. It is a total waste of resources and is typical of the ‘new generation’ of computer professionals who assume everything needs to be running a ‘real’ OS.
Bottom line, how much information are we talking about here, 64 bytes upstream and about double that downstream, per transaction TOPS? If even that much? My god a Sinclair ZX80 could handle that and not even break a sweat.
I keep seeing these overcomplex, just asking to fail devices, running things like Linux and Windows, when there is NO need. These ‘improvements’ over the years to things Like ATM machines and registers have just made them less reliable, harder to use and generally a royal pain in the @#$% to service.
Two Words: BASIC STAMPS. (http://www.parallax.com) – Overkill hardware for what we’re talking about here. Tie in a decent CRTC chip (or use a serial TTL screen device) and your looking at under $200 in hardware for the user interface side of things with little to nothing that could go wrong.
It’s really sad seeing the equivalent of mid-range desktop computers being relagated to jobs that were considered beneath the capabilities of a DEC Rainbow.
Back in 1983 I remember the Australian Army was using Texas Instruments scientific calculators (512 byte) to target artillery pieces. They were connected to a simple thermal tape printer. Worked perfectly.
the old uk ones all run os/2.
allegedly… I read that in the sunday sport…
and they never lie to me
In the college that i go too, the electronic notice board were all powered by an amiga, It did it job day in day out, last year they replaced it with window 2000 and from that time on BSOD,and it generally does not work as good as the amiga.
just goes to show that even with 15 year old technology (amiga) it was a better solution than windows..
Great word. I’ll have to keep that in mind for my anti-computer rants in the future… 😉 (needless to say I totally agree with the above comments against complication of stuff that works already)
I have seen an ATM in Sweden with a NT4 error message – “Out of virtual memory”.
If the study is accurate and Windows on ATMs goes to 12% and then 65% in the U.S. in 2 to 3 years, I would worry about ATM reliability and security in the future. I would like to know what’s driving this move at the big U.S. banks and among the ATM manufacturers.
Regards,
Mark Wilson