As the Professional Developers Conference (PDC) countdown clock ticks down —at this writing, we’re 19 days, 14 hours and 36 minutes away from the Longhorn stampede, according to one enthusiast’s Web site — it’s a good time to start separating Longhorn fact from fiction.
Seven Things To Keep In Mind About Longhorn
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In M$ trustworthy computing, I think that we are going to be giving up a lot of freedom to use what we want(i.e., Mozilla).
Everyone knows that M$ considers open source to be less than trustworthy. What a way to kill the competition.
6. Trustworthy Computing
I’m sure that all of the “trusted” computing, the SQL-based file-system, and .NET intergration features will be “great”, but the only thing im really excited for about Longhorn is the new direct3d accelerated GUI. Finally (in 2005) x86 users will have a smooth desktop like OSX. In fact, i’d go as far as to say i’d use ANY OS the comes out between now and then that looks as nice. I hate to be so superficial, but user-interface (and possibly driver support) are the only things keeping me from switching to linux/gnu or some other hobby OS full time.
“Finally (in 2005) x86 users will have a smooth desktop like OSX.”
Gah, you *have* seen Plex right? The new clownsui-er, theme that Longhorn defaults to? Yick! Also, the amount of wasted space in the Longhorn GUI is silly when compared to the sleekness of OS X.
The accellerated desktop is still rather cool though for sure, as are WinFS (as bad as it’ll be for interoperability), and the idea (though not the implementation!) of the “Trusted Computing” stuff.
Not that I’d ever trust them to do that sort of thing right…
I’ve been playing around with Longhorn build 4029, and so far, I likes it. Granted, its pre-pre-alpha, but you kinda get a sense of where it is all going. Think: merge MSN directly to the XP/Aero desktop, add an SQL backend (WinFS), and that’s about it so far.
WinFS is no where near ready for primetime, but if this is the direction they are going in, its as easy to use, and about as stable as XP.
Think about where will be in 2005+ OSX and more interestingly linux desktops will be probably quite mature with lots of apps.
while the technology is interesting, and definatly accesable to computerbuilding geeks like me, I must say that I will stay away.
making trusted code a requirment and stating it as a feature basicly means that free software will not be able to run on the system…..and with that, MS can just claim that “they are not building software for the platform, what can we do about it”
by the time BlackComb comes out, we will have an MS computer, and the OEMs are going to be in trouble becasue no one can under sell an OS monopoly who makes all their money on software and will probably sell their systems mcuh like Apple does, but it iwll be a “trusted platform” where the OEMs are not, and you can get the computer for 150 bucks more than the cost of the OS, so we are talking about 250 dollor PCs that are as powerful as $900 – $1200 OEM PCs…the diffrence, the form factor will be based on the XBox to avoid anti-trust action.
> Gah, you *have* seen Plex right? The new clownsui-er, theme that Longhorn defaults to? Yick!
Gah, you *have* understood that Plex has absolutely nothing to do with the interface of Windows Longhorn, right? Okay, this is a little exaggarated (as Plex is ATM the interface of that sidebar-allblue-crashy-WinXP that theoretically has a little connection to what Windows Longhorn might become). But maybe you remember the Watercolor theme we had in all the Whistler-(XP)-Alphas and Betas up to a few builds away from the final? Where did it go? :O
I’ll resummarize my point, just to be sure: Plex is not Aero (they are not even remotely comparable), and chances are Aero will wipe the floor with Plex, Luna and Watercolor altogether.
the diffrence, the form factor will be based on the XBox to avoid anti-trust action.
That was a funny statement indeed.
You do have a point though, not too long ago we were hearing about the “Athens” right? Isn’t that the codename for the MS designed all-in-one desktop computer? Taking what you said along with other things one can read online, coupled with your estimated price tag, tommarow’s PC is starting to look more and more like an appliance. At least for home users. Apple is already there, some say the iMac w/ LCD monitor looks like a lamp.
I don’t like the idea of appliance PCs at all. Call me old fashioned but I consider computers to be a different beast of their own. I don’t want my toaster rebooting, and I don’t want my computer toasting.
I know there are a lot of open-source advocates that don’t really care if linux/gnu or any other open-source os “beats” windows in the future, but i sort of do care. In 2005 (august 15th ;-)), longhorn will probably be released. Most likely it’ll be the most polished OS ever released for non-apple users. However, we all know about palladium and what that means for fair use advocates. So the way i see it, the open source community has about 2 years to create something that Longhorn will pale in comparison to. If that happens, not only will it deal a blow to the people trying to limit our fair-use but it’ll also but m$ in a position of “catch-up” with no plan. Linux as a kernel has become pretty mature, it’s really the GUI that needs the most work.
Finally (in 2005) x86 users will have a smooth desktop like OSX
Just give me the Windows classic theme – runs smooth as a baby’s ass, and has done so since Win2k.
The PDC Sessions Abstracts here:
http://mymsevents.com/MyMSEvents/search.aspx?=&page=1
provide some interesting tidbits on what is planned for Longhorn
Here are some favorites:
“Avalon”: Using the Document Platform Features
Integrated document services are a key component of “Longhorn”. This session covers the end-to-end view of Windows “Longhorn” documents ranging from creation, to management, to consumption. Document scenarios include content-centric applications, stand-alone documents, and printing. Document-centric APIs and format are discussed in detail. Demos include document-centric application, adaptive flow and fixed documents, authoring via print driver, and more.
So Win32 won’t be left out in the cold just yet.
Exploiting Windows “Longhorn” Features from within Win32/MFC Applications
Learn how you can upgrade your application to take advantage of “Longhorn”. This session discusses the strategies, techniques and recommendations of integrating “Longhorn” APIs into today’s native applications. Learn step-by-step how to modify your Win32 and MFC applications to integrate core “Longhorn” technologies such as the new UI, shell, storage and collaboration APIs. This session is essential for anyone who wants to turn their existing C/C++ code base into the next generation “Longhorn” application.
Queue scary music …
Introducing the “Longhorn” Identity System
The “Longhorn” Identity System provides a unified store and representation for information about people, groups, and devices across all applications, and leverages this information to enable secure communication. In this session, learn how the Identity System enables developers to easily build applications that work across a continuum of secure “digital interaction” scenarios, from server-less person-to-person interactions to server-based organization-to-organization interactions. A detailed demonstration shows how “Longhorn” itself takes advantage of the Identity System for secure file sharing, secure networking over the Internet, and single-sign-on and secure wireless in the home (the “Castle” network).
New environment for virus writers to learn. Hopefully the finer grained security capabilities of .Net can protect dangerous APIs with something more useful than current methods…
Put The Power Inside: Hosting the CLR in Your Application
Expose the power of managed code to your customers by using the CLR as your host for scripting and automation. Join experts from the CLR, SQL Server and “Longhorn” design teams to hear their experiences hosting the CLR in SQL Server “Yukon” and Windows “Longhorn.” Pick their brains on how to enhance your own app’s programming model by integrating the CLR languages including C#, VB.NET, Managed C++.
Bringing transactions to the application level for file I/O? Neat.
Transaction Support Under the Covers: KTM, CLS and Transactional NTFS
Hate writing error-handling code? Detest writing the error handling code for your error handling code even more? What you need are transactions just abort that failed operation and rejoice in higher code coverage numbers as the transactional resource managers rollback all those incomplete actions assuming all the places you store state support transactions. See how Windows “Longhorn” helps developers by providing transactions as a fundamental part of the OS supporting full ACID transactional support for local (NTFS) and remote (SMB) file shares, and allowing these transactions to be coordinated by DTC and involve other resource managers such as SQL, COM+ and WinFS. See how, for advanced developers building systems with transactional behavior, Windows “Longhorn” offers a transaction manager and common log service accessible by kernel, Win32 and .NET/LAPI api sets and learn how they ease the complex work involved in this class of application.
Like email inbox rules but for the file system?
WinFS: Drill Down into Information Agent and Notifications
Do you want to build Windows applications that put the end-user in charge of information flow? Do you want to make your application an active information agent, customized and programmed by the end-user? Learn about features in the “Longhorn” storage platform that enable schematized end-user rule logic, declarative eventing, and rich contextual notifications.
So there is some chance of interopability. Hopefully this is something Samba can use if necessary.
WinFS: Drill Down on Synchronization Topics
Learn how to exploit the synchronization services provided by WinFS, the next generation storage system for “Longhorn”. WinFS provides comprehensive services for synchronizing data between multiple WinFS stores, as well as between WinFS and non-WinFS stores. This session walks through building a sync solution using WinFS, including configuring synchronization sessions, providing custom handling for conflicts, and implementing adapters for non-WinFS stores. Learn how to provide a great end user experience by integrating your WinFS sync solution with “Longhorn” sync UI.
WinFS: Schemas and Extensibility
The WinFS schemas are the data and API definition that ship with Windows. The Windows Schemas define documents, contacts, system and person tasks, and much more. Learn about the thinking behind the designs of the Windows Schemas and how you can extend the schemas that ship with Windows, create your own schemas, and extend WinFS.
A couple of interesting non-Longhorn items…
.NET Framework: Developing Applications Using the New Object-Relational Technologies in Whidbey”
Traditionally object oriented business objects and relational databases have differing ways of structuring data. As a result, developers are forced to develop a layer of code between the business logic and the database access code if they wish to decouple the layers. Included in the “Whidbey” release is a new data access technology called ADO.NET ObjectSpaces. Learn how ObjectSpaces allow you to query, modify or persist their CLR business objects without being concerned with the underlying structure of the relational data store. See how to declaratively map your database schema to object hierarchy (including advance object oriented features of inheritance and complex relationships) without writing a single line of TSQL code. Learn about the runtime services provided by ObjectSpaces components such as object identity and delayed loading.
ASP.NET: Programming with Master Pages, Themes/Skins, and Navigation Controls in ASP.NET “Whidbey”
Drill down on some of the new and exciting page framework features in ASP.NET “Whidbey”. See how to leverage exciting features like Master Pages and Themes/Skins to richly customize Web UI, demonstrates how to leverage the new cross page postback features to postback server controls to other pages, and the new Site Navigation API and navigation controls to make building Web apps a breeze.
Ant.NET ? …
Introducing MSBuild: The Universal Build Engine for Visual Studio “Whidbey” and “Longhorn”
MSBuild is the next generation build engine that delivers scalability and flexibility for the entire range of build scenarios, from the basics to complex build-lab scenarios. Drill into the capabilities of this universal build engine for Visual Studio “Whidbey” and the “Longhorn” operating system–from its XML-based persistence model and human-readable file format, to its ability to assist in the creation of build steps and processes for Visual Studio projects.
Are we going to see a major split in x86? Are MS trustworthy server systems going to refuse to dialog with non trustworthy systems? I know I will never buy another MS product even if it means their trustworthy server systems lock me out. Is this going to happen?
Yeah, I realize that Plex is not Aero. Like Luna isn’t GDI+. But if they stay on the same course as they are on now, we’ll not have much useful screen real-estate left regardless of the details.
As far as the theme in the Whistler betas, I couldn’t say anything about it, t’was before my time in the modern Windows world.
Questions:
1. How will Longhorn increase productivity?
2. How much will it cost?
IF 1>=2 THEN BUY ELSE DONT BUY
I would be surprised if Longhorn would revolutionize the way of doing work with your computer. It seems as if it’s the usual GUI modifications and some marginal features added (that most users won’t need anyway). The only economic reason for upgrading would thus be to maintain compatibility with the rest of the upgrading world.
I hope I’m wrong though. I’m not against a cost efficient way of increasing my productivity 😉
So you’re basically saying Aero is the interface technology and Plex is the theme? Well, after seeing the videos from that Lab06-build shown at the WinHEC, one could make that assumption (in that build, it is, indeed). But my intention was to deliver the information that Plex is a development theme, just like we had it in Whistler’s early stages. To some extent, Plex even visually resembles Watercolor. But Plex will be abandoned. It won’t even be present on the PDC build in a few weeks anymore, according to my (anonymous but usually reliable) source. Don’t quote me on this, just wait until you see it.
And the second thing is, they will _not_ stay on the same course as they are on now.
They are experimenting.
And btw, this is not a flamewar, in case it looks suspicious.
Hey, if I need to be corrected, by all means, go for it. As far as the disapearing screen real-extate that I see in the Windows interface, I can only hope that they reverse what I currently see as a trend.
Despite the fact that I am not a Windows fan, I am looking forward to Longhorn’s release, even if it won’t be until late 2005. There is some cool technology going in there.
Microsoft is on a ambitious strategy to synchronize all there products, from Windows, Office and Visual Studio with the Longhorn release.
And the intentions are good. But this will take time of course, and I don’t think Longhorn will be released on time, it may take up until mid 2006. I bet the main products, Windows Longhorn and Office Longhorn, Longhorn Visual Studio will be released June 2006. While the other products inclusive of Server, Project Green will be released within a 2 year time frame.
Interms of which GUI is much better, Windows or Mac, I would go with Mac, but the victories stop there, Mac OS lacks the strength and proven reliability that Windows has. And remember, the reason why Windows is attacked so much, is because of its popularity, if any other OS such as Mac OS, Linux had the massive user base as Windows, it would face the same vulnerabilities. And please don’t tell me that Linux has millions of users, recent statistics show that Linux’s user base is actually 46,000.
I think MS has a Winner on there hands, its just that I hope the Aero interface is a big surprise that surpasses Apple’s Aqua.
Do you really believe that there are only 46000 linux users in the world? You can´t be serious.
Pablo
PS: I am now a OSX users, and it would be normal if Aero is better than aqua-QExtremee. They have had 4 years more to develop it.
What deadline? Open source is *open*. Linux is *free*. Can’t compete with that.
And having a pretty GUI is not everything. Take a look at Windows. How many people still use the “good ol'” Win98? And it’s not that pretty, if you’d compare it with WinXP.
Anyway, in 2 years many, many things will happen…
Victor.
You forgot no. 8
8. Apple holds a monopoly position on the PPC platform……
🙂
The question is the amount of competition. Does anybody think apple doesn’t have competition? they have lots, the whole wintel platform.
MS on the other hand has had very limited competition – most people won’t consider apple and linux hasn’t had enough apps. This could be changing but so far MS has no real competition at least in the desktop space.
Apple holds a monopoly on Apple computers, not computers using PowerPC processors.
Interms of which GUI is much better, Windows or Mac, I would go with Mac, but the victories stop there, Mac OS lacks the strength and proven reliability that Windows has.
Huh? Mac is built on BSD. BSD, with uptime measured in thousands of days.
Take the top web based companies. Google. Amazon. Yahoo. They all run Linux. Unix varients has proven reliability in a hostile environments (unfirewalled, on the Internet). Windows has a proven functionality on a firewalled LAN. This is not even close to the same thing.
http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/today/top.avg.html
And remember, the reason why Windows is attacked so much, is because of its popularity, if any other OS such as Mac OS, Linux had the massive user base as Windows, it would face the same vulnerabilities. And please don’t tell me that Linux has millions of users, recent statistics show that Linux’s user base is actually 46,000.
There are more Linux webservers than Windows. These number in the millions. At the University of Waikato ( http://www.waikato.ac.nz/ ) all of the second year students and above use Linux. There’s about 60 computers in this lab alone, and at least another three like it.
Oh, and quit with Windows popularity contest. Most of the recent show stopper virus’s have been propagated by Windows Internet server minority. Nevermind that BSD, Linux, OS X Server, and Solaris all tend to run similar versions of Apache and Sendmail, the virus’s have been propagated by Windows servers.
System requirements:
4GHz Pentium V, 2GB RAM, 500GB HD, 18GB DVD drive
1GB RAM 512-bit 2GHz GPU video card
…and it will still do no more than what yer system does for you today…
Now you made an excelent point. This Longhorn thing will just be for the rich out there that can afford. Many, *many* people can’t afford it, and will probably stay with the good ol’ Win98.
Victor.
Looks like I need to correct myself. Aero will be the new GUI, whereas “Avalon” will be the GDI+ replacement. Silly me.
It’s not a deadline in that the open-source mvmt will die out, but compared to OSX (at least as the GUI is concerned), XP is going to look REALLY dated next year, if gnome/kde or something new came out that looked awesome, it would be eaten up by a lot of people, even people that don’t have a major problem with windows. The next 2 years are the biggest oppurtunity open-source will get in a while to grab up a big percentage of the desktop market.
if gnome/kde or something new came out that looked awesome
Yes, I’ve been waiting for three years.
<<<<<<<ATTENTION ALL LINUX ZEALOTS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;
You know whats funny, because no amount of whining from all you linux zealots will change one important fact.
Microsoft will continue to hold 95% of the desktop market.
so microsoft haters i ask you this, how you like them apples.
>>>>>>>>>>ATTENTION MICROSOFT HATERS<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<
I do believe there is a bit of a deadline for the opensource community to come up with something that blows WinXP out of the water. Well, at least they would be losing a great opportunity if they don’t exploit the next two years of M$’s OS product line showing nearly no progress.
I’m actually optimistic, though. Look at your options as of mid 2001 (in terms of DE’s): part way through the Gnome 1 series of releases, ditto for the 2 series of KDE and XFCE 3.8.
Now KDE 3.x, Gnome 2.4 and XFCE 4 which are all lightyears ahead of two years ago.
Give em two years more and I think they can be great in both beauty and functionality.
What it comes down to. That’s ”trust”. Enought said.
I can’t comment on the KDE side as I don’t follow that DE, but interesting things are happening in Gnome a la Storage and Dashboard.
I would also like to think that the next release of GTK will bring added speed and polish
You know whats funny, because no amount of whining from all you linux zealots will change one important fact.
Microsoft will continue to hold 95% of the desktop market.
so microsoft haters i ask you this, how you like them apples.
I guess learning how to tell fortunes replaced learning about evolution in the USA schools now?
Correction. Microsoft currently holds 95% of the desktop market in the USA.
Collary. The USA is not the entire market, and the desktop market is becoming more and more of a commidity market. Microsoft produces crap server software, and is justifiably getting a beating by Linux.
More servers on Linux, means more sysadmin’s of Linux. More sysadmin’s means more programmers. More programmers means more applications. Applications (including games) is what drives the desktop market.
Because of to attitudes like this, I would not be surprised to see the the States get left behind when it comes to software.
I really do like them Apples(tm) Can’t beat good old macs
I am suspicious of the new trustworthy computing paradigm proposed by Microsoft. Nowadays with a choice of operating systems it will be a tough sell if it doesn’t play nice with other systems or is juxtaposed to what consumers want. As for longhorn its won’t be till at least 2006 before i even look at it; you have to wait till the first service pack is realeased before a Microsoft OS is worth messing with. It will be even longer before it is used in companies..how long has XP been out? and how many companies are using it as a desktop OS? Not many. I think they are timing the release to coencide with the release of the Next Star Wars movie. Also at the rate that linux is gaining ground and maturing i wouldn’t be surpised if Linux will be a viable choice by then for businesses.
Wait just a minute….let me get this straight. So you’re saying your not sure if you trust “Trustworth Computing”?
Well trust me when i say i am leary of it. I trust you agree?
i dont get all that discussion about the Mac and windows GUI. did you forgot linux??
yes, windows may be easier in some tasks, yes Mac OS is probably the most good looking OS, but I prefer my Gnome/Kde/Fluxbox environment in terms of beautifulness than Windows.
I can customize it and change it in dozens of different ways that windows users dont even dream off. Unless you download some stupid power tweaking toys or other stuff like that..
You’re right, they only have about 92% of the worldwide market….
What new server products from MS are crap? Why are they crap, in your eyes?
You can’t just spout stuff off and expect people to believe you.
BTW, there is also an increase in Windows servers. Linux and Windows are both gaining ground, both of them stealing market share Unix based solutions. Also, Unix has always had the majority server share, with tons and tons of programmers programming just for Unix, yet it has not reached the desktop, thereby leaving a tremendous hole in your logic.
is ANYONE still using a commercial unix version for anything. I can’t tell when CPUguy says “Also, Unix has always had the majority server share, with tons and tons of programmers programming just for Unix” is the “unix” in question is one of the BSDs or something else. It seems like there’s no reason to spend the $$$ for a commercial unix license when so many other things are free and equivalent.
I don’t understand how anyone can get excited about Longhorn. One of the earlier posters said that its basically windows xp with MSN built in. That’s just what I’ve always wanted in an OS. I just can’t believe how people are walking along blindy following everything microsoft does.
I really hope that the message gets out about how bad DRM is (no i don’t mean direct rendering ;-)). The thought that someday the internet and computing in general could be locked down by this DRM crap is really scary and makes angry. I’m not saying that piracy should continue the way it currently is, but i think MS is overstepping their bounds with their “Trustworthy Computing” initiative.
One solution to piracy is lower prices. Maybe people wouldn’t download copys of Office from Kazaa if it didn’t cost almost $400. MS isn’t really adding any new features that actually improve the usability of their products, so why charge an arm and a leg?
I really just hope people wake up to all this before its too late. DRM will kill the internet as we know it. Imagine you’re sitting there using slackware 15.1 and you want to go check out some website, but you recieve a message saying sorry, we cannot authenticate your computer, please contact your sys admin to have him install a DRM capable os. That’s what it will come to if we let this happen. WE HAVE TO VOTE WITH OUR DOLLARS! That’s the only thing that will save us.
If anyone is thinking about buying a new computer in the next year or so, please give http://store.apple.com a look. Their machines are amazing, and the OS is even better. Or check out one of the free *nix os’s. They take some effort to learn, but it’s great once you pick it up. My only hope is that companies like IBM and SUN step in and make sure that MS doesn’t take over the hardware industry and make open source software a thing of the past.
to change a little… MS try to sell something that UNIX has had very years such as Journaling FS…
WinFS is a bad copy of Journaling FS of Linux, and MS try to sell it as NEW and invented by them… (“hey! Bill Gates invented internet and the mouse” says a average Win user)
so, future Pentium 5 will be crap using Longhorn … just like now, using XP in an Athlon 1.2.
That is the best post of this thread skaeight.
Everyone re-read that one and then go tell someone you know that doesn’t spend their free time reading about alternative operating systems.
If average people really knew how bad “Trustworthy Computing” could make our lives…probably wouldn’t make a damn bit of difference.
Maybe I’m just skeptical and people aren’t the brainless consumers I think they are.
Mutiny
I know i’ve kinda been beating the importance of a slick GUI thing to death, but i really think that if “brainless consumers” walk into someone’s room and a computer is running any OS with the kind of kickass GUI im talking about, they’ll want it. Does anyone agree with this?
Packaging is everything. The average person doesn’t care about what kernel is running.
The thing is, I don’t even think the new gui for Longhorn looks that great. Yes I know, the pics we’ve seen aren’t even close to the final version. However, they do give us an idea of the direction that they are headed.
I actually think that the new gui is really ugly. Why do we need a huge sidebar with a clock on it? I run have my resolution set to 1280×1024 for a reason, I like desktop real estate.
Everything just looks extremely dumbed down. I like aqua much better, it’s slick, fast and it doesn’t get in my way.
I think WinFS is more than that. I think it’s also a new way of letting applications store data. When you think about e-mailprograms etc. they are applications that can benefit greatly from a standard database storage system.
Centralizing data storage might also make backup more simple, because you can just tell your backup-program to back up data from the last week/day/hour, and by “the magic of databases” back up all your data created by windows programs.
Dude… ok, i’m not an expert on this subject, but, from what i recall, WinFS has *nothing* to do with Journaling… WinFS isn’t even a filesystem (despite its name). It’s got more to do with Gnome Storage.
Victor.
I believe you are right about that, it places a SQL-style data base on top of the existing file system, journalling has nothing to do with databasing/organizing files intelligently
Victor: WinFS stands for Windows Future Storage, just a bit of trivia.
Anon: NTFS has had journaling built in for quite some time now. As stated, WinFS has nothing to do with journaling, it adds database-like qualities to the OS to make it easier to find and store your data.
The thing is, I don’t even think the new gui for Longhorn looks that great. Yes I know, the pics we’ve seen aren’t even close to the final version. However, they do give us an idea of the direction that they are headed.
Unfortunately, they don’t. As I said above, the final UI won’t remotely look like the one in the screenshots, even apart from the theme.