The Longhorn edition of Microsoft’s Windows OS is at least two years away–but the company is revealing some details on how it intends to create a smooth transition from today’s Windows PCs.
Microsoft Unpacks Details of Longhorn Storage
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Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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why does MS have to mess up such great technology with palladium and DRM!!!
god dang it…as an OS maker, they were immune to any problems that users caused, I can only assume that they saw DRM and the best way to prevent pirating their software. it makes no sense otherwise.
I can live with giving the end-user a choice of DRM for his/her creations, but come on, this other stuff is to damn much.
What I can’t stand a folks like you who haven’t even SEEN the technology, much less understand how it works, or even get the concept of the technology, yet you still go off spouting off how bad it is going to be.
Just like WPA was so evil, and made everyone’s life a living hell. Or IE SmartTags, which people are now using today, even though Microsoft pulled the technology out of the IE6 because of deuchebags who haven’t seen what exactly the technology is.
Palladium will enforce DRM. that is all I care about. it is bad bad bad bad bad.
You don’t know what it is, which is quite obvious. How about you research the technology.
BTW, if correctly implemented, DRM should NOT harm you unless you are stealing.
well, if out know what it is so much better than I, then please explain it to me rather than sitting there in silence and giving the appearance of knowledge which is common among those who wish to be seen as having information but in reality have none.
and BTW, DRM is never going to be implemented correctly because it will always be created in favor of the Copyright holder and not the consumer. DRM will always infringe on my fair use rights.
http://librenix.com/?inode=3043
Linux may support DRM, too. I haven’t seen any substantiated claims that Windows will “enforce DRM”, and as you imply, require only protected/non-copyable content be produced.
And you forgot: Linux is good good good good good
Oh my god…you must be a damn political spin master because that is about as far as you can get from what LT was saying in that comment.
Maybe you should stop feeding the deb… eeh, troll. =) The article is about WinFS, and it’s quite interesting. I’m not into filesystems and databases much myself, but it does sound nice what they’re doing at the moment. I hope it won’t be too CPU intensive though. :/
debman: Try here for a start… http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/default.asp?url=/technet/…
Other info is here… http://msdn.microsoft.com/security/productinfo/ngscb/default.aspx
But again, we still have not seen any technology demonstration of the product, and as such, can not make any conclusions on it, including it’s “bad bad bad bad”.
xJulian: It’s basically taking metadata, which BFS had, and incorporating it into NTFS, which I’m all for.
Yes, it is a common tactic to try and move the focus away from useful, and well executed designs/technologies into ad hominen arguments.
I am not a troll. I had stated how I thought the technology in longhorn will be great, but Palladium makes it much less desirable (i.e. messed it up)
I am a person who does not like DRM as it gives to much power to the creator and no power to the user(the creator and user of the DRMed material.)
did I say windows sucked? did I say longhorn is going to suck?
no, I made a comment about the one big detracting(for me) feature of Longhorn.
thank-you CPUguy for the material. I did not want to call you a punk, but your responses were anything but informative which leaded me to believe you had no real information and just happened to be of a different mind about it than I.
WinFS sounds like it’s Microsoft’s version of Gnome-VFS and KIO-Slaves. Basically, an API to access user-space-implemented “filesystems.”
Looked at another way, it’s like all “WinFS-Aware” applications will store their data in the Registry.
to quote from the articles provided by CPUGuy:
“A DRM system can take advantage of this environment to help ensure that content is obtained and used only in accordance with a mutually understood set of rules. ”
so, basically, MS is making very easy for record labels to enforce their wills on users. I don’t like that. I want to use my media the way I see fit (outside dumping it on Kazza for all to see and get)
while I will admit there are more upsides to this technology, my disdain for anything that helps big media companies impose their will on me or anyone else (what else to home users do with their computer except consume media? (other than do a small bit of work) ) keeps me from seeing a silver lining. besides, this Palladium tech has almost exclusive benefits to businesses looking to keep trade secrets and enforce user policy. there are no home user benefits, unless you are s kiddie porn freak (referring to the fact that law enforcement will have to manually break the encryption since no key escrow will be mandatory.)
so really, the only thing I can see these technologies being used for in to enforce usage policy on home users by media companies (think about digital cable boxes with these in them…woops, nope can’t record this show) not to mention what the Music industry will do with this system.
There’s a binary representation of XML. It would be interesting for Gnome-VFS to provide a “structured storage” (please overlook my use of that term) VFS API, so applications could write their data to a standard structured format w/o re-implementing the data-serialization engine for every application. This would be somewhat like what WinFS is doing. And it would be queried with XPath, perhaps.
I hope it won’t be a registry of the actual data rather than a registry of IDs and sector locations.
I don’t think I could handle losing all my data because a bin file gets corrupted.
Seems like an awful waste of space. Sure it would sometimes be nice to be able to find files more quickly, but I don’t think I really want to mix sqlserver into my operating system to get a glorified file index. And if you were going to do something like this, wouldn’t relational metadata be more efficient than xml?
DRM should NOT harm you unless you are stealing.
Really ? In my country I have the right to make copies for my own use. How do I use my fair rights if the DRM prevents me to make a copy of a CD on my mp3 player ?
Shouldn’t the producer/owner of the content get to say what’s fair use of THEIR product? If you don’t like it, look else where.
//Shouldn’t the producer/owner of the content get to say what’s fair use of THEIR product? If you don’t like it, look else where.//
Not after I buy it they shouldn’t.
//Shouldn’t the producer/owner of the content get to say what’s fair use of THEIR product? If you don’t like it, look else where.//
Not after I buy it they shouldn’t.
Really? So it’s OK for you to burn 1000 copies, and then sell them on Ebay for $3 each. It’s OK for you to make a 1000 copies, and then sell them to your local record store to undercut the record companies. Or how about just giving them away for free? All 1000? Is that OK? Or how about 100? Or maybe just 10? Hmm?
I think that it is futile and counter productive to try to understand “how” a closed source product like the Microsoft or Solaris operating system is implemented. If you want to learn about system implementation than look into Linux or BSD.
At any rate, a person can understand many details of WinFS if they study general data base implementation. I suppose one of Microsoft challenges will be how to teach the general public and also how to teach developers about WinFS and XML and other dynamic runtime and abstract technologies. Sure it is kind of fun…if you can afford it.
dude he was talking about personal use. never did he mention selling anything anywhere.
the law says you can make copies for personal use, specifies no limit. you can even give them away. though it would be morally wrong to do it outside the family.
Topic is -Longhorn Storage-: WinFS built on top of NTFS, metadata described in “schemas,” or an XML data format.
“The company has recognized that search, or querying, is fast becoming a more practical means of retrieving information than navigating through a hierarchy of folders and subfolders.”
The browser approach versus the classical file manager.
“The data storage system will allow developers to build security into applications…
With WinFS, the concept of hierarchy becomes a secondary concept,” Muglia said. “It still exists, but it’s not necessarily the only, not necessarily the primary, way users find information.”
I wonder how the query interface will be, just an advanced search set, or a more sophisticated browsing adopting visual retrieving enhancements (ie, time and content) in the Lifestreams manner?
Say it again.
“Fair use is NOT a right”
It is a legal defence to copyright infringement. People often fail to make a distinction between the two. In the same way that homicide in self-defence does not entitle you to murder everyone who looks at you funny, the fair use defence does not automatically confer upon you the right to do whatever you damn well please with the artistic or literary endeavours of others.
For a variety of reasons, legislators have seen fit to narrowly define fair use. Cases like Sony v Universal and legislation like the Home Recording Act have broadened the scope of fair use somewhat, but it is still very narrowly defined. Significantly, no legislation or case law says that rights holders must make their works available to any and all forms of copying. Nor does it give preference or prohibition to any specific copying medium.
In this context, DRM does not erode your fair use “rights” one single bit. Just because it might prevent you from copying that latest Britney CD onto your computer doesn’t mean you can’t copy it onto audio tape, DAT or even another CD via a recording deck.
Finally, to abraxas. You said “Not after I buy it they shouldn’t.” What do you think you are buying? Exclusive rights to the work? Nope, you are buying a license, the terms of which are specifically laid out on the physical product ie copying permitted only for personal use etc. If you don’t like the terms of that license, don’t buy the product. But if you do buy it, you agree to and are bound by the terms.
“I am a person who does not like DRM as it gives to much power to the creator and no power to the user(the creator and user of the DRMed material.)”
Actually the user has the ultimate power. Don’t use the copyrighted material that has been created. Then the creator of the copyrighted material won’t recieve any benefit from having created said material.
Who are you to tell me what to do with what I have created. You don’t have to use my creations. You can create your own.
“BTW, if correctly implemented, DRM should NOT harm you unless you are stealing.”
And this is not bad, how, exactly?
Your not one of those rich people who does not recognise other’s right to existence because their are below your income level or something… are you?
Economic disparitiy is not alleviated through punishment – well, unless it is aimed towards the rich who uphold such disparity, of course.
So what, you’re saying that economic necessity means that theft is okay? That may work in those parables you learnt in Sunday school about stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family, but it doesn’t really wash when you talk about downloading songs from Kazaa.
I sight Sony v. universal
the supreme court says that certain fair uses are rights given to the consumer under copyright law.
the home recording act of (early 90’s) extends this by saying that consumers have the right to make personal copies of any media they buy.
so, to all the “creative people” who think that congress and the supreme court have given them the shaft, complain to them, or stop making material.
I wonder how long WinFS will take befor the data it holds gets fragmented
Sony v Universal says nothing of the sort. In fact, “consumers” weren’t even a party to the action. Nor does the case confer any fair use “rights” beyond that which was currently extant in copyright law.
What the Supreme Court actually said was that Sony could not be held liable for facilitating copyright infringement through the use of Betamax recorders where they were used to time-shift TV programs or movies. This very narrowly extended fair use, but nowhere did it confer a right to consumers.
In any case neither Sony nor the AHRA prohibit rights holders from placing restrictions on certain types of copying technologies.
I don’t see any creative people complaining about the Court or Congress limiting their rights. Their complaint is with the technologists and consumers who abuse those rights.
So this WinFS runs on top of NTFS (which is not exactly the fastest journaling file system on the planet), includes some technology from MS SQL Server (SQL is an inconsistent and ugly mess), and even comes with some XML storage for increased buzzword compliance.
This seems awfully bloated and complicated for just storing and retrieving data by keyword. I bet it will be full of security holes, and XML storage is neither space-efficient nor fast.
I think that ReiserFS has a much better and more orthogonal approach to this problem. It builds on the UNIX philosophy “everything is a file”, and lets you store billions of tiny files efficiently. Files are stored in a very efficient tree data structure and there will be an API to modify multiple files atomically.
I think microsoft will regret that they did not allow hans reiser to build reiserfs as a windows native file system. Serves them right.
yes, that is one thing that was decided that day, but it was also ruled that time shifting is not a copyrght infringment…
as I then said the home audio recording act extended home users’ rights even more.
read copyright law as it is today.
you will find:
the right to parody
the right to publish selected parts as part of an educational analysis
the right to shift media(no specified limit)
the right to time shift
and
users have the right to allow another party to borrow media for a short period of time.
these are in copyright law right now. they make our education system, library system, entertainment industry go around. it is also what keeps the media companies from being liable for losses of products consumers buy because the product media failed to protect and retain the content.
I’m not arguing that fair use doesn’t exist in limited circumstances. I’m arguing your assertion that fair use is a right, and that DRM extinguishes that right. Neither is true.
I am not saying that the mear existence of DRM infringes on my rights (they are in the copyRIGHT laws, that makes them a right), but the unregulated use of DRM does. big media companies will have the funds to devise a scheme that will diminish my rights under copyright laws because they will be acting in favor of themselfs and not the consumer.
that is why DRM is dangerous and why I fear it.
Sorry, but you are being ridiculous now. “copyRIGHT” laws are not rights conferred to you as a consumer, they are rights conferred to authors artists etc to make and distribute copies of their works. And s107 of Title 17 clearly states that fair use is a defence to copyright infringement. It is not a right granted to consumers.
DRM will not (and cannot possibly) prevent you from making copies in any medium other than a computer, therefore fair use is not eroded or extinguished. In other words, if any other method of making a copy is available to you, then you cannot claim loss of fair use just because you can’t copy to your hard drive.
then what copyright law confers are rights to both consumers and artists.
Actually, I’m an Electrical Engineering student at the Unviserity of South Florida. I live at home (a whole lote cheaper) and am a server/line cook at the Applebee’s down the road.
Combined household income was about $60k, though my father left about 5 months ago, and is now about $30,000. Do you call tht rich?
Just because someone does not have money does not give them the right to steal. Downloading off of Kazaa is no different than going to the store and stealing something right off the shelf… except it’s a whole lot more convenient, and you probably won’t get caught, to just download.
CPUman (or girleyboy),
You need to understand the implications of widespread DRM. I would refrain from trying to discuss it intelligently until you have done some research and maybe thought about it. If you still have trouble with it, there are some folks here that could probably help you with understanding the basic concepts.
SofaShark,
Fair use IS a right under copyright law here in the US. You might want to read in particular sections 107 through 112 of the US commercial code on copyrights under Title 17, chapter 1 which explains fair use here:
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/ch1.html
Also, copyright law applies to everyone whether a producer or a consumer. I don’t know where you get your information from but laws usually need two parties to be involved and that usually means both parties are granted and restricted in thier rights, freedoms or actions.
Now as far as WinFS goes, I don’t see how adding more bloat in the form of another layer on top of NTFS can possibly do anything but slow things down. Less is more!
“So what, you’re saying that economic necessity means that theft is okay?”
Welllll, that’s tough one. How many of us ever have ever recorded an album on cassette back in the days when that was still done? How many of us has ever ripped a CD or used a illegal copy of a game? Quite a few of us, I imagine. That doesn’t make us “pirates” or Napster 1.0
Is theft fair? No, probably not, but it is reality. And Bill knows all about it…
Microsoft will be able to influence US and some International law because they have social networks and a span of control, however the IT industry is still a immature industry. The problem that Microsoft is having however is that they are not acting fast enough and this will limit the acceptance of things like DRM. There are too many Linux users out there even now that are critical of Microsoft dominance, and the GPL (not Linux itself) has exposed Microsoft as a dictator. The other problem is that Microsoft is notorious for poor quality products and late releases. Personally I can’t understand why anyone even considers using Microsoft products.
* Just because someone does not have money does not give them the right to steal.
* How many of us has ever ripped a CD or used a illegal copy of a game? Quite a few of us, I imagine. … Is theft fair? No, probably not, but it is reality.
Mah point exac-te-lai.
See, CPUguy, its not about right and wrong, moral supinity / superiority crutches for small minds or any other failures to address reality.
1. People steal music.
2. DRM prevents people from stealing music.
3. DRM is not for people.
Theif: How about the people that you are stealing the music from (not the record companies, but the song writers, artists, etc…). Are they not people too?
scoff: Thank you for degrading the thread down to name calling… way to be mature…
You need to realize that just because DRM limits you does not make it bad. It is only bad when it limits you beyond your rights. Buisnesses have rights too, including the right to protect themselves against theft.
I say again, if you are using your software, music, whatever, according to how the licence that you purchased says, then you SHOULD NOT be effected by DRM. Not to say that some company some day will not try and take advantage of the consumer via DRM, but they don’t need DRM to take advantage of you either.
“How about the people that you are stealing the music from (not the record companies, but the song writers, artists, etc…). Are they not people too? ”
Funny you should mention that. You know, Michael Jackson is going to be in Scary Movie 3 and he’s not looking much like a human these days, very Star Trekish actually…
there are certain rules that those licenses must abide by. they are outlined in copyright law.
just because a license says something does not make it binding.
if it says I must refrain from making any public copies but then goes on to not allow me to make any personal copies either, that is just as illegal as the license telling me that I can not make any personal copies.
The obvious answer is that if one does not mind being told by MS which software he or she may or may not run, then Longhorn will no doubt be a fine operating system. If one prefers to reserve that judgement for themselves, than they should look elsewhere…
CPUguy/gal,
Refrain from posting any more about this subject until you have learned something about it and can discuss it intelligently.
Excuse me, scoff, but you’ve done nothing but degrade the forum and you have offered no bit of information.
Anon: There is nothing in Palladium that will dictate such wrongdoing, at least, nothing that has been explained as of yet. “Trusted Applications” is not Microsoft saying what you can and can not run.
It’s kind of quaint that you’re so trusting of Microsoft, but with their sordid past history, you’ll simply have to forgive some of the rest of us if we do not. It’s as I said, either one trusts them or they do not, there’s really nothing to argue about here. We don’t need to do a thorough digging into MS’s past in this thread, I believe most, if not all, of us know their methods…