What sets LindowsOS 4.0 apart from the crowd is not what is shares with standard Linux approach, but what it doesn’t. LindowsOS has been reviewed many times over, mostly with favorable results – but this is not just another review. This piece will tell you not only about my experience with LindowsOS 4.0, but also what you need to know to arm yourself with the knowledge to make the decision whether LindowsOS is right for you.
LindowsOS (hereafter, casually, “Lindows”) is a project aimed a users of Microsoft Windows. Unlike other Linux distributions, Lindows assumes no previous experience with Linux, no experience with installing alternative OSes, and little knowledge of computers. Lindows is based on Debian Linux, and under the hood, is still exactly that. Familiar users will be able to edit /etc/apt/sources.list and use apt-get to install and manage their packages. You can still go to the command line and administer your system like any Linux box. But why would you want to? This is no ordinary Linux, and shouldn’t be treated as such. Lindows is much, much more, and at the same time – much, much less.
I’ve installed various Linux and BSD systems close to 100 times, and Lindows installation is the easiest I’ve ever experienced. It’s blazingly fast, about 7 minutes on my system, and requires very little attention. In fact, to a seasoned Linux user, or even one with casual experience, it’s nearly disconcerting. There’s very little in the way of options – even if you chose not to “TAKE OVER ENTIRE DISK,” you simply select a partition, give the computer a name and a “system password” (which is the root password, but never referred to as such), and choose continue. Since my test system contains other OS’es, I admit that even though I knew I chose the right partition, I worried that Lindows might somehow decide to install somewhere on its own. While I see this as a negative, the truth is that to someone investigating Linux for the first time, this might be the only way to go without confusing them. I am quite positive that virtually no one I knew who isn’t in the IT field knows anything about partitioning their hard disk(s), and I am confident that such an option would end with a phone call to me. So to summarize installation without getting into the details covered a hundred times over elsewhere, it’d dead simple for a newbie and possibly scary in its lack of interactivity for anyone else.
Booting into Lindows for the first time is fairly standard. Assuming you are dual booting, you’ll find it will present you with a somewhat boring graphical LiLo boot menu asking you which OS to boot. Selecting LindowsOS, you’ll see no kernel messages, just a progress bar a la Windows, and shortly thereafter, receive a login box and login as root. Behind the attractive Lindows splash screen you’ll find a crowded KDE desktop reminiscent of Mandrake in the 7.x and 8.x days. Within a few seconds, you’ll see a popup of a license agreement and a first time wizard. By accepting the Lindows license, you’ll have an “Advanced” button that will present a configuration menu that will allow you to add a new user.
A few versions ago, had some impressions about running as root by default. However, a lot has changed in the last year, and I no longer feel this is acceptable or appropriate. Lindows is now competing with Windows XP, which is a multiuser system, and even the XP install prompts you for user creation. Computer users are becoming smarter and are capable of understanding the difference between an administrator and a regular user. Further, security is growing ever more important and the user savvy enough to venture into Linux territory is arguably even more willing to learn and possibly make concessions like su’ing or logging in as root for configuration changes. Red Hat, Mandrake, SuSE, and the like all prompt you to create a new user during the install process. Lindows should do the same, regardless of aim. That said, I’ve already explained that Lindows is set apart from other distributions, and this is a large part of that. They have made a judgment call, and sacrificed what they believe is a minimal security risk for simplicity. I respect their aim, but disagree.
The heart of what sets Lindows apart from other distros is the attempt to be simple and user friendly. In my opinion, they have succeeded in places and fallen short in others. It’s very easy, while reviewing OSes, to say “So-and-so found this correctly and this one didn’t!” Unfortunately, hardware detection in Linux is a huge stepping stone, as every hardware configuration tool is eons behind its Windows counterpart. My test system has the GeForce Quadro 4, which is admittedly a semi-obscure card that many distros have had problems detecting properly. That said, Mandrake 9.1 and Fedora Core had no problems, but Lindows did. While TuxRacer, a free download played effortlessly, I was unable, without digging into the config files, to change the resolution from 1024×768. I have a 17″ viewable monitor, so my default display resolution is generally 1280×1024, but Lindows kept me locked at 1024×768.
While this is an issue, it’s also the resolution of most monitors, and so it’s a fair evaluation point. Focusing less on my particular issue with my video card, my experience at this resolution was less than enjoyable. Strangely, nearly everything, even the core application “Click-N-Run,” which I’ll cover shortly, required sideways scrolling. Working on the basis that the standard Lindows user is not downloading and installing nVidia drivers (and probably doesn’t know what drivers are), this is a problem. It’s fair for, say, Slackware developers to expect their users to dig around in X11 configuration files, but this is not a realistic goal for a Lindows user. So hardware detection is dead important and earned at least one check minus.
Lindows removes a lot of choice from the user, and this, I’ll agree is not always a bad thing. I’ve long felt that each distribution should only include one application per task and let the user install others if they need it. This would reduce bloat and help give each distribution a better identity. Lindows has clearly done this. However, while removing some of the duplicate apps, they’ve once again been “too generous with the scalpel” and removed too many core pieces of the OS. There are simply too few applications. “Killer apps” that have been key to defining Linux’s coming of age on the desktop are conspicuously absent. There doesn’t appear to be a CD Ripper, an office suite, or a way to watch video files by default. There also doesn’t seem to be a screenshot tool, an FTP program, any servers, a compiler, or any development tools. This seems a little too slim in the default offerings – while the target Lindows user may not need any of the latter, certainly the first group is now considered essential.
With LindowsOS, however, Lindows.com is clearly expecting you to become a Click-N-Run
member. They’ve reserved literally hundreds of applications (some free, others not) for the CNR warehouse, and to be frank, without a membership or Linux know-how, Lindows is virtually unusable. Assuming, however, that you’ve purchased a CNR membership, what you’ll find is that CNR is the ultimate software repository. CNR is literally a masterpiece. Choose an application from the very logical and well thought out categories. Simple descriptions will help you find exactly what you’re looking for. Navigate to it in the warehouse, click install, and it does. That’s it. It’s preferable to executable downloads, rpms, or even apt-get’ting files from the command line. It’s easier than synaptic and yum. In keeping with the goal of Lindows to provide the easiest experience to the user, CNR receives an “A.” Little has changed with CNR since the last time I used it visibly and architecture-wise, it’s still a great program.
As you can see from the screenshot, Lindows uses a directory structure different from most distributions. They’ve ported the idea of My Documents and My Music from Windows, presumably to ease transition, and put a series of symlinks throughout the tree to make you more comfortable. Personally, I found the entire thing confusing. It seems to me that the smart thing to do is train a new user how the tree works rather than shielding them from it. I would imagine too much symlinking would become confusing as the user becomes more comfortable with Linux. In addition, the concept of “My Documents” being at the drive root is a holdover from the Windows9x days. Perhaps Lindows expects the majority of their customers to be those outgrowing Windows 98 and Me who are not going to XP. I, however, see this as an extension of the “run as root” issue – if a user can learn how it works in XP, they can figure it out in Linux.
It should also be pointed out that Lindows found my XP installation, mounted the NTFS drive read-only and the FAT32 crossover partition as writable, and placed them under /disks. I found this to be a fairly logical placement, as a newbie might not find /mnt to be logical. While the notion of /windows seems to be a common one, /disks is arguably a better terminology for all Linux distros to use, since there’s no assumption that it will always be Windows Linux is replacing.
Lindows is not aimed at Linux users. If it were, it would fail miserably. It’s not just run-as-root issue, the blatant relabelling, or disguising free software as their own work. It’s the lack of control. It’s the lack of…Linux about it. Of course, that’s just what is so appealing about it to the real target audience. Lindows is Linux without all the Linux. Let’s face it, there really is no distribution that doesn’t require some know-how. To this day, even Mandrake, widely considered “the desktop distro,” still needs command line tools to get the job done right. Lindows fixed this by simply removing the parts that would require that configuration. There’s so little included in terms of system tools, but only in comparison to other Linux distributions. It’s more comparable to XP Home Edition than anything else.
What makes Lindows so unique though is that it’s backed by the dynamic Michael Robertson.
He has a propensity to cause trouble and, seemingly, doesn’t care. He’s the only person to take on Bill Gates and have people listen. He’s speaks more pointedly than other alternative OS advocates, is taken more seriously than free software extremists, and takes more direct shots at Microsoft than anyone else, including the gutsy free PC offer. He also supports many open source projects and even commisions his own. Think he’s got an ego? Worried that he’s a madman? Think he’s evil for ripping off programs and replacing their “About” boxes with Lindows information? Rest easy. He’s still doing more for Linux than almost anyone else with the exception of Linus and his round table.
In the end, despite ease of use, I’m not overly impressed with Lindows. Perhaps it was all the good press that had my expectations so high. Maybe it’s the fact that it really hasn’t evolved all that much since version 2.0, two major versions ago (note: there have not been any point releases, possibly a good thing, since the terminology is actually pointless, and it’s all marketing anyway). Maybe it’s because it just looks enough like any old distro. Or maybe
it’s because my Click-N-Run trial expired and I’m not willing to pay for something I could figure out how to get for free.
Put bluntly, LindowsOS is not for everyone. After using it on and off for a few months, I’m probably going to replace it with Fedora Core or Slackware 9.1. But I respect Lindows for what it is, the Linux I’d turn to if I needed my mother to run it. Or my collegues at work. If you are familiar with Linux and are not turned off by the lack of certain manual configurations, you should probably stick with your distribution. If you are seeking polish and a unified system, this isn’t that solution either. Lindows is not desktop Linux made perfect, it’s desktop Linux made simple. That’s what Lindows.com set out to do, and that’s exactly what they’ve done.
Installation: 8/10
Hardware Support: 8/10 (missed an nVidia video card)
Ease of use: 9/10 (incredibly easy)
Features: 5/10 (needs more default software)
Credibility: 8/10 (no major OS “point” releases or clear-cut upgrade method)
Speed: 8/10
Overall: 7.66
Very good review, I totally agree with you on LindowsOS 4.0. I have also used it, and although I didn’t like it that much personally, I realised that this OS is perfect for the not-so-computer-literate people.
Oh, and to be able to change to 1280×1024, uncheck the “hide rsolutions…” box.
Lindows needs a few more releases and i reckon it /MIGHT/ just be up there with the best.
I have used lindows, v.easy install like reviewer said, i don’t use click n run just use apt-get etc. Or you can go to http://www.openlindows.com
Sorted.
Ive used it for about a month(3.0) and then switched back to Slackware.
Excellent choice for a computer newbie
Very good review. I agree with the sentiments exactly. It’s something I would have no second thought about installing on someone’s computer in place of Windows, but I wouldn’t use it myself.
Lindows is a decent distro, it’s well thought out and some what more refined than some distro’s, especially for it’s targeted market but it does have some glaring issues:
1) the root issue, I feel, is still a huge problem and is a step in the wrong diretction not just for Linux but consumer computing in general.
2) it’s stupid, and very lame, name. As Linux continues to increase in popularity and use, become easier to use on the desktop, what is a consume going to choose when looking at different Linux options….Lindows, SuSE, Red Hat, Lycoris?
On name alone, a user knowing nothing about Linux would probably pick one of the latter options just because Lindows sounds…
Stupid
Cheesy
Like a second-rate Windows knockoff
a wannabe
I think the root issue is just something you’re gong to live with, because you’re not going to get Joe Sixpack (in most cases) to run as a normal user and enter his root password everytime he needs to make an administrative change. The only way a setup like this would work is to have the system enter the root password automagically, in which case you might as well just run as root.
Address run as root has been done, and it’s not hard. Assign a “system password” a la Lycoris, and then force user creation, and don’t allow a user to graphically log in as root without manually typing “root” in the login box. Then, when a task requires elevated privileges, graphically prompt them for the root pw.
Every review and screenshot I see of Lindows shows KDE as the desktop being used. Has anyone see or heard of Gnome being used on Lindows? If so did things work ok or did menus, shortcuts, etc. get mangled?
Exactly.
Additionaly, when the user logs as root, Mandrake launchs a very spartiate version of KDE, a screensaver 100% red (=danger), and popup a short informative message explaining why it’s bad.
But you know, when you come from Windows, you are used to hit the Enter without even reading the error message. In this case, Mandrake has setup the default choice to “logout”, so that’s why will happen the first time. Now, Joe Sixpack has noticed.
Very clever and pedagogic IMHO
Lindows is getting better (and they now support Mozilla composer, it benifits all users), I hope they can do the same for the next release.
Anyone who’s used both care to comment on LindowsOS Vs. XandrOS Deluxe? Anyone on the XandrOS beta testing line able to give a dry opinion? I have a not so savvy friend who wants to buy LindowsOS 4.0 and wants a somewhat fair amount of windows compatability (namely files, minimally programs) – Personally I think XandrOS 2.0 would be better for him when it comes out but I’ve never used LindowsOS (and have used XandrOS – 1.1 specifically). So does anyone know how they compare? Mind you – ease of use, stability, simplicity, and responsiveness are of the most importance – price is much less of a concern.
what happened to windows compatibility? did they just give up. i doubt they could clone all windows api
…I’ll use WINDOWS.
Lindows…Pass. The Linux community doesn’t only need to get a life, it needs to create and show us something new :down:
What about having a root switch in the taskbar – where you ‘unlock’ your computer and are able to perform any administrative tasks you want and then when you’re done just lock it back up again? It’s a simple enough concept for new users and provides the security that people want; unlock your computer to put stuff in or change things around, lock it up to keep it safe.
Sorry for the extra post –
To keep from getting taken the wrong way – I don’t mean starting a new root session, I’m talking about in the same session. Wouldn’t it be neat to click a button, enter your password, and be able to act as root temporarily in the same X session, then click the button again and return to being a regular user again? I know that’d make life that much easier on my end – it’d be like a gui version of su;)
Then, when a task requires elevated privileges, graphically prompt them for the root pw.
Perhaps you missed my original comment – this approach would work, but only up until about the 10th time Joe Sixpack has to enther that password – having to do the same task over and over again tends to grate on the nerves.
Lycoris does it the way you mentioned. When you need root access it pops up a dialog box to input the root password, and then remembers it until you close out whatever task you are doing.
Perhaps you missed my original comment – this approach would work, but only up until about the 10th time Joe Sixpack has to enther that password – having to do the same task over and over again tends to grate on the nerves.
This is OS X’s approach, and I believe it’s entirely necessary. It enforces the need for user intervention to obtain administrator privileges, and does it in such a way that the user can’t be easily tricked. Contrast this to IE prompting to install ActiveX objects in Windows, where a user is just a single click away from having the latest and greatest spyware installed.
Prompting for passwords may be an annoyance, but it eliminates a great number of problems from the user’s perspective as well.
I was thinking something a little more system wide – like temporarily giving the user root priviledges. Granted, it’s much more insecure – but the scope eliminates confusion or frustration. At any rate, it’s a heck of a lot better than just running as root all the time.
This is an excellent review. I’m not sure what I think of the guy who started the company, but the distro looks good. I’d recommend this to my relatives for a newbie distro, no question.
But as others point out, the name is a problem. “Lindows” sould raise its profile by having a name contest. It seems good enough to run for everyone – maybe give money away to the best name, or something. But the knock-off name is no longer needed. Try OSNow, NXGenOS, or something. But CHANGE the name, please.
As for me, I’d never use Click-n-Run myself. But I like the idea very much.
The only real problem with Lindows is they’re mighty skinny on the apps so they can push the Click n Run heavier. Naturally, they don’t like to talk about apt-get much. But it’s still the most user friendly of any distro.
Windows is the reason! Windows taught us these bad habits – working always as root in Windows is the reason of destructive power of numerous viruses, etc. This is the fact! And we got used to that (I mean – not to use normal user account) because of Windows.
I use MacOSX (mostly) and Linux everyday and I think that users should get used to entering an admin password every time an application is about to be installed…
“Lindows” doesn’t sound good.
…I’ll use WINDOWS.
Lindows…Pass. The Linux community doesn’t only need to get a life, it needs to create and show us something new :down:
Troll. The Linux community isn’t even responsible for Lindows.
I actually laughed when I read the initial press release about Michael Robertson starting Lindows. Although I still think the initial focus (running Windows programs on Linux) was silly, I see the benefit of running Lindows on an extra living room computer to surf and play mp3’s.
Anyone who’s used both care to comment on LindowsOS Vs. XandrOS Deluxe? Anyone on the XandrOS beta testing line able to give a dry opinion? I have a not so savvy friend who wants to buy LindowsOS 4.0 and wants a somewhat fair amount of windows compatability (namely files, minimally programs) – Personally I think XandrOS 2.0 would be better for him when it comes out but I’ve never used LindowsOS (and have used XandrOS – 1.1 specifically). So does anyone know how they compare? Mind you – ease of use, stability, simplicity, and responsiveness are of the most importance – price is much less of a concern.
If the user only is going to run software like word processor (OpenOffice/StarOffice) and maybe do some web surfing I think I would recommend XandrOS (2.0). Only problem is you gotta wait some time to get the new version. XandrOS is more throughly tested and with more up2date software, wich makes a more stable OS. XandrOS stress to have everything throughly tested.
XandrOS has a kind of ClickNRun program also, as you probably know from 1.1, so it’s no reason not to choose it
Lindows have more programs available though, but it’s not always more is better….
For the record. I use LindowsOS 4 (latest version/build) on my main laptop today and XandrOS (latest 2 beta) on my secondary laptop. I like the both equally
Thanks for taking the time to review LindowsOS 4.0. A few points of clarification might be in order…
In regards to… “There also doesn’t seem to be a screenshot tool, an FTP program, any servers, a compiler, or any development tools. This seems a little too slim in the default offerings – while the target Lindows user may not need any of the latter, certainly the first group is now considered essential.”
The retail version of LindowsOS DOES come with OpenOffice. Perhaps you downloaded the wrong .iso? (We do make an .iso available WITHOUT OpenOffice for those who use StarOffice or simply don’t want OO for whatever reason. Perhaps you grabbed that .iso by mistake or have an older version of 4.0?)
We also have a “Developers Edition” which includes all the compilers, etc. you mentioned. Again, our main market wouldn’t need or want any development tools. If you need these, you can 1) easily add them with CNR, a good place to start is the Developer’s Aisle at http://www.lindows.com/aisles/LindowsDeveloper or 2) use the Developers Edition .iso found at http://shop.lindows.com/user/mylindows_download_library.php
As for “…the Linux I’d turn to if I needed my mother to run it. Or my collegues at work.” Thank you…that’s the nicest compliment anyone can pay us. =) 95% of computer users have NEVER installed an OS in their entire life. Setting up their email client is a monumental task, let alone running commands, compiling programs, partitioning drives, etc. LindowsOS is for those people. Fortunately, it’s a VERY big market. =)
Kevin Carmony
President, Lindows.com, Inc.
Thanks for your information:) Yeah – XandrOS Networks is great, but using 1.1 I’m finding hoards of programs that have unresolvable dependancies (though none I can specify offhand atm as I’m on my windows box). Also, he uses his cdburner and frankly xcdroast isn’t all that great for average Joe. That said – I can get cdbakeoven off woody easily enough. But downloading programs via click-n-run or XN are troublesome, and in my experience XandrOS seems to be fairly complete as a desktop system whereas – as mentioned – LindowsOS is missing some functionality out-of-the-box. Friend uses dialup:)
Still – I like XandrOS, and if you say it’s going to be more stable I’ll take your word for it. I’m assuming there’ll be a windows compatability suite in an enheanced version, like in the 1.x series with crossover. It’s more what he wants I’m sure, but I’ll have to make sure he’s fully aware of the limitations.
I don’t like this whole root thing – but then I’ll be setting up his system anyway so it’s no big deal. That said – how does LindowsOS play with systems not run as root? Does it accomodate normal users as well as other distrobutions with respect to administrative tasks – or does it assume at all that it’s just going to be run as root.
One last thing – with XandrOS Networks in the 2.0 version and Click ‘n’ Run, do they have the dependancy issues covered for the most part? Eg – having kdelibs4 installed and needing kdelibs3 (which isn’t going to be installed, obviously). I haven’t tested that recently – but I remember having a huge problem with that when I ran my knoppix system. And by covered I mean either finding a way to solve the dependancy issues or not carrying older programs on their servers. I ask because – frankly – I don’t want my friend to see a program he wants and pull his hair out trying to install it, possibly messing up his system.
Anyway, thanks again – you’ve been very helpful.
We dropped trying to run MS Windows program about a year and a half ago. Since that time we have been involved full time in supporting the creation of NATIVE Linux applications which are open, stable and much more affordable than MS Windows software.
We agree…anyone that wants to keep running expensive MS Windows software should simply keep running MS Windows. If, however, you want to change the world and bring CHOICE to desktop users, you need to keep working on the new world. We believe native Linux software can have many advantages over MS Windows programs (look at Mozilla vs IE as just one example), we just need more work on the Linux applications that are out there and more programs. We’d rather support these new efforts than try and get MS Windows programs to “sort of” run on Linux. We see little incentive to do this. We like being Linux through and through. =)
You can read more about our thoughts here: http://lindows.com/mswindows
Kevin
Kevin,
Your points are well taken. Lindows.com needs to form an identity, and they seem to be doing that pretty well. The name (apparently unpopular here) is “out there,” and that’s great. As that identity takes further shape, it may be that “typical” Linux users are left behind or turned off by certain decisions. I’d hope that you continue down the path of creating a Linux flavor for the public regardless, as this community needs just that.
On the same note, you’ll never live down “run as root.” So long as that’s the way things work, the knowing IT community will never budge on its thinking that LindowsOS invites security risk. I’d press that point to your team, as that, along with lack of quantity in base apps, are my only real solid complaints about LindowsOS today.
CNR is fantastic. That’s your selling point. You have the makings of a solid distro “for the masses,” and I have little doubt that with a little more maturity, we’ll be hearing more and more about Lindows.com.
But IT people will simply set up users, which is extremely easy to do with LindowsOS. The only difference between LindowsOS and any other desktop distro is we don’t FORCE you to set up users. Lindows.com is all about CHOICES. We think “forcing” people to do things a certain way is anti-choice. If you want to run as root, you can. If you don’t want to, you don’t have to. Choice…it’s a beautiful thing. This is why you can still use apt-get with LOS as well. We don’t want to limit choices, we want to expand them.
Kevin
But Kevin, what about the name? Since you’ve dropped the Windows compatibility why do you want to keep “Lindows”? It seems like a knock-off, when the OS seems such a quality thing. (Oh, and yea, I would have no problem recommending it to my mother 🙂 ). But a more “forward-looking” name could help, yes? You could always have “Lindows v. X” in the small print. And the switch to Solaris didn’t exactly hurt SunOS. Definitely memorable and “sexy”.
d
what a load of shit, I was starting to come around thinking Lindows might be okay if several issues where resolved but after hearing you answer questions i am convinced it is a lost cause.
Obviously choice isn’t the best option all of the time…or else you would let them choose what desktop environment they wanted to use, or what packages to install during installation, or to use kmail by default instead of mozilla mail.
Lindows is clearly about limiting choice, which when done right is not bad.
I am almost sure I remember reading a quote from your fearless leader about too much choice being a bad thing in current Linux distro’s.
Choice? where is CnR via Lindows available for other distros? CnR is about the ONLY advantage to running Lindows, why not package it and sell it to consmers as a service for other distros (sort of like red carpet). You could probably create more revenue from that then you do with your current model.
Choice? So instead of forcing them to create at least one user account (which you could auto-logon by default, hell you could even make the root password the same as the user supplied password by default and that alone would be more secure then the garbage you are trying to pull now) you force the user to run as root by default, telling them during the install that the administrator password is optional and then hiding the “Add User” fuctionality behind “Advanced” buttons where most users wouldn’t even think to look for it.
It’s actually funny because you guys want to be Microsoft so bad that you are willing to make the same mistakes they did. It has be quoted by MS that in the past they sacrificed security in favor of ease of use and features…and now they are paying for it. Why do you think MS, for like the third time in little over a year, has announced it is taking a new security initiative to secure it’s operating systems?
While we are at it…Lindows is so into MS bashing it takes away from the actual product itself. With that and the stupid name (Lindows) no wonder many people inside and outside the Linux community see it as a cheap windows knock-off.
My not sell your product on actual merrit instead of conintually bashing MS?
You know, Keving, since your guys are making those various falsh tutorials, it might not be a bad idea to make on the dangers of running as root and adding users…
Also, I bought my copy of 4.0 from Walmart.com a few months ago, but it didn’t come with Open Office. Are you saying newer versions do?
Exactly! security is a process, users need to be educated about security, why you have to give an administrators password when you need to do certian tasks, and why creating users is benefical. Also how to create users.
The only reason it is percived as hard is because they don’t know about it and aren’t used to it.
Example…my father-in-law runs MacOS X (he has been a Mac users since the Apple II). I was there when he installed Safari from a package downloaded from the Apple site. The installer asked for his administrator password (which was the same as his login password). He asked me why, not that he was annoyed or confused…just curious. I explained to him about the administrator account and he understood. just me, if he can get it and adapt to change…anybody can.
“But Kevin, what about the name? Since you’ve dropped the Windows compatibility why do you want to keep “Lindows”? It seems like a knock-off, when the OS seems such a quality thing. (Oh, and yea, I would have no problem recommending it to my mother 🙂 ). But a more “forward-looking” name could help, yes? You could always have “Lindows v. X” in the small print. And the switch to Solaris didn’t exactly hurt SunOS. Definitely memorable and “sexy”. ”
Please don’t change your name, its been there too long and advertised too agressively to take it all away. Furthermore, the name itself makes users more hopeful (but perhaps they will think it is just a windows with a linux face and expect to do everything like in Windows).
Furthermore, you could say that it is the stability, freedom, and rapid advancement of Linux coupled with the ease of use of Windows.
Anyway, I’m sure you guys could think of a lot of great reasons to justify the name and keep it, definitely more than I can find for changing it.
I also sugest taking of the .com from boxes of Lindows etc. Lindows.com 4.0?
Mr. Carmony – I don’t intend to attack or offend on any level; if anything I say seems that way it is entirely unintentional I promise.
“Running as Root or User should be YOUR choice, not ours…”
That is exactly the point. Choices require decisions – but the people you cater to don’t know enough about Linux to make informed decisions – and thus, at first, avoid choice in lieu of the default because that’s ‘safe’. Linux has evolved over the years in the desktop arena by reducing the number of ‘forced’ choices in lieu of using reasonable defaults based on assumptions made about what a person wants from their computer.
This leads to the subject of this whole ‘root’ dilemma. Running the computer as root can lead to major security problems and make it easy to really screw some things up. By default, apparently, Lindows sets up the main user as root – requiring a person to go into advanced options during installation to have users. In this case – the user isn’t choosing to run as root at all, LindowsOS is, and it’s up to the user to choose otherwise.
My point is that these people don’t know any better – they just trust their OS to do the ‘right thing’ for them.
We’re all for choice. If a user wants to run as root then that’s great! That’s their choice. It’s all about choice. But most people might not have known there was a choice to it in the first place – or even that it was an important choice. I’m talking myself in circles and not getting my point accross I don’t think. *shrug* But really, you said it best yourself.
“Running as Root or User should be YOUR choice, not ours…”
Exactly. It should be up to the user to choose to run as root, not LindowsOS. As it stands though, the user has to explicitly choose to run as a user – and if they don’t know any better then they just end up running as root.
Also, I haven’t seen it myself, so I’m talking from what I’ve heard… but if adding users is under an ‘advanced’ button, well, that’s liable to scare meek users away – every non-savvy person I know stays away from anything that says ‘advanced’ or ‘expert’, why? Because they’re afraid they’ll mess up their computers!
That friend of mine I keep talking about – he’s spent a couple thousand dollars on his computer. It’s an investment for him – and he wants it to be fairly well protected from viruses and he doesn’t want to have to keep reinstalling the OS over and over again when something gets screwed up – that’s why he’s switching from windows in the first place! It’s even easier to screw up your computer in Linux as root. I have another friend who had the bright idea of deleting big files in her windows directory. She didn’t know any better – she was trying to free up space on her hard drive, that’s all, but the whole thing was ruined and had to be reinstalled from scratch.
My point is that while Linux is most definately about choice – the user shouldn’t have to pay a price for choosing not to choose and trusting the decisions of their operating system designers. That’s one of the differences between a computer guru and average joe – All average joe wants is for his computer to do what he wants it to do in the simplest and safest way possible. Average Joe just wants something that just works, doesn’t break, and he doesn’t have to worry about something bad happening.
And that’s why all us techies are paranoid. Most of us care about Average Joe, and don’t want anything bad to happen. Call us nitpicky and paranoid – but running as root by default could allow some very bad things to happen to Average Joe and his computer. And we’re scared for Average Joe, because Average Joe just doesn’t know.
*shrug* I’m talking in circles and repeating myself- a clear sign I’m getting tired. Heh. Anyway, I hope you can see my point, and that I haven’t come across poorly. I have nothing against LindowsOS, in fact – If I’d ever used it I’m sure I’d have much to praise – honestly. But please, when we say what we do about running as root by default – it’s not to attack your company’s operating system, it’s out of concern. LindowsOS has made a truly giant step into the desktop arena, and believe me when I say you have the respect of many for what you’ve accompleshed. We offer our thoughts, suggestions, concerns, and criticisms – as we do for all distrobutions and operating systems – in the hopes of helping the creators improve their system. Maybe we get off base sometimes, and maybe we’re sprinkled in trolls, but we do care. And we wish you all the best.
Choice…it’s a beautiful thing. This is why you can still use apt-get with LOS as well.
Doesn’t Click-N-Run use apt-get to install the software?
I actually really like your insight. I recommend Lindows to people, and I haven’t even tried it, just because I know that you guys have the right idea–make software installation a snap, then get rid of all the unnessecary software bundled with most distributions. The install is faster, and the desktop is a hell of a lot slimmer too.
Distributions that put so much software on the CD(s) shoot themselves in the foot because it makes them responsible for more software. All you guys just have to make KDE look purty, which isn’t too difficult a task at all
To all of the people that criticize LindowsOS for not requiring a user account, think about it this way…
An average home user isn’t going to draw malicious attackers, and there aren’t many viruses out there for Lindows. Can you name any? It’s easy to think than every Linux box need be secure, but most home users don’t need to worry about it.
If viruses start to come for LOS customers, they have two defenses. First, they have anti-virus software. Secondly, LOS will still have the Unix underpinnings necessary to make adding a new user a matter of a few lines of code on the installer.
I think you’re all missing the point… it’s geeks going on about running as root, creating users and superusers blah blah blah. You point out the dangers, because you’re “geeks” who are already deeply knowledgeable about various Linux distros, or have Unix backgrounds, or are IT professional-geeks.
Joe Sixpacks (like me) just want to switch the computer on and do ‘stuff’, and preferrably without paying a boatload of money every time Bill G feels the need for more.
Lindows is like that. Switch on. Do stuff. One-click install.
There’s still plenty of stuff inside Lindows for techy-geeks to play with I reckon. But I don’t want to see it thanks very much. Same way I don’t want to see patches and bugfixes every day like I do from Microsoft.
the only thing that keeps me from using and recommending Lindows is the absence of GNOME. I hope GNOME will be one of those CHOICES.
If i want Linux i will use SuSE, if i want an operating system with “indows” in it I will use Windows. I particularly dont care for lindows and i dont think I ever will. The community already has a user friendly, consumer Linux desktop it is called SUSE Linux
I used to respect Lindows because of their goals (easy linux for people who wouldn’t use other distros) and their sincere contribution to linux)
However, there is something which has really annoyed me of late:
one of the latest updates of their OS is a 650 MB download. And yet when you install it, even if a few default apps have been added (RealPlayer and OpenOffice, I believe), you can’t still understand where you 650 MB have gone. I have an idea on how to explain it: the ‘unaccounted for’ 300 MB or so, are ‘broken code’, meaning partial programs needing a vital bit added via C&R.
I have nothing against it in principle, IF IT WERE DECLARED OPENLY.
In the past they had (and still have) a separate C&R iso. That felt much better, at least you knew what you were doing.
The above mentioned issue, together with ‘apt-cdrom add’ disabled by default, make the supposed Debian compatibilty a myth.
Add to the above that a kernel update and some better fonts are long overdue.
But I suppose they serve their purpose well.
As you said, LindowsOS is NOT for the real linux user.
I also like Suse, and I buy every new release, but I tend to prefer Libranet, my ‘favourite Debian installer’ among many available.
The reasons are that every Suse release tends to have a few, very annoying bugs, and that I must do things ‘their way’
One example is that ‘working DVD Players’ can only be downloaded via apt4rpm (which they refuse to support). Or else, Xfce4 must be installed separately. Bit torrent clients are also unavailable.
With Debian I have a rock solid OS, very easy to upgrade, and I can apt-get install virtually any linux app under the sun.
As one can see for my previous posts, I am, hopefully, a bit more than a newbie.
However this matter of (not) running linux as root drives me mad.
Linux by default is a lot safer than Windows.
You cannot ‘damage your computer worth thousand of dollars’, as somebody said. You can only damage your data (which of course can be valuable-but then you should always backup-a system crash is more likely than an invasion by aliens)
And talking about choice, does Suse give any? You MUST run as user (otherwise the price you pay is a very ugly, disfunctional Kde-and yes, I know a thing or two about customizing)
By default you can’t even unmount a CD as user. Well, if this is not lunatic asylum…
I am not the only one feeling like that. Bero Rosenkraenzer and his team feel like me. I should know, as I belong to their mailing list…
I’m the one who (basically) said the thing about damaging your computer – and by such I knowingly meant on the software level. In the perspective of many people, it’s all the same – computer doesn’t work right, gotta pay someone to fix it.
I don’t have a problem with average joe installing stuff through click and run without entering any sort of password – nor accessing their cdroms, having full access to their home directories and their other hard drives or partitions. That’s ease of use and simplicity.
All I know is what I’ve gathered from the people I’m close to – a good dozen people who I’d consider ‘Average Joe’ – and are calling on me on the phone every other day because their computer ‘screwed up’ somehow. Be it windows fault, the fault of a program they installed, something they did themselves – or, as in most cases, something someone else who got on their computer did.
I know Joe Sixpack doesn’t want to have to worry about all this crap. He just wants it to friggen work – leave all the technical crap to the techies. Great! Then don’t let Joe Sixpack go fiddling around in config files without giving a password. When he goes into an administrator mode – like a control center or something – he probably knows what he’s doing in that sense, it’s a front end for all the configuration stuffs – so have lindows save the root password and enter it in for him when he goes to do that. Same for click & run. I don’t care if the whole thing is completely transparent to Average Joe – if his computer is that much safer without anything getting in his way then all the better. My concern is accessing those complicated files directly – which in many cases does take someone very knowledgable. If they want to get to the nuts and bolts they should have to enter a password – if they don’t, there’s a beautiful suite of tools for them to use which takes care of all the complicated crap for them.
What does that protect them from? Well, it stops ordinary programs from fiddling around with anything that could hurt the OS, stops average joe, or his friend, from doing anything that could hurt the OS, and makes my life a whole lot easier if something does go wrong – It’s leagues easier to restore a user account to working order than it is to fix the underlying system or reformat and install the entire os all over again.
Anyway, I’m just putting out my two cents, I’m not condemning the OS. I don’t agree with the whole root thing – that’s my right to an opinion, and I’m just explaining my position… I’m not trying to force it on anyone. I just hope you take, or have taken, the things I say into consideration when making your decision. IT people will always frown at this root thing – but that doesn’t mean we condemn the OS, and we DO understand the reasoning behind it. *shrug* I see it and think to myself ‘there’s gotta be a better way, where everyone is happy.’
Time will tell if the root thing becomes a mistake – but as long as A.J. is happy – well, I guess I can’t complain. It is, after all, a desktop system.
“An average home user isn’t going to draw malicious attackers
That isn’t something that one can count on. An attacker might not even be trying to attack a specific machine, but use some automated exploit that attacks many at once. Also, an attacker might simply go for the most convenient target, whomever it may be.
and there aren’t many viruses out there for Lindows. Can you name any? It’s easy to think than every Linux box need be secure, but most home users don’t need to worry about it.”
So long as it remains difficult for Linux to spread a virus, it will probably remain an uninviting target. That is a reason to keep being uninviting, not an excuse to be less vigilant.
1) Politics. Adam Scheinberg is right. Fair or unfair, Lindows will “never live down ‘run as root.'” It simply is considered a Bad Thing(TM) by those in the know, and as long as Lindows runs as root by default, reviewers, Linux geeks, and others will have reservations about recommending it to the non-geeks that Lindows targets.
2) To insure that normal users can run certain privileged services. When I browsed the Lindows forums, I found that normal users had problems making a dial-up internet connection. This is the sort of problem that would be caught quickly on a distro where root was not the default, since from the start nearly all Lindows users would have howled to have it fixed.
3) It is still bad for security. I realize that the danger of running as root is overblown, but it is still there. A calamity that hits the root user can mess up the whole system, and any other user accounts on the system (if it’s, say, a family computer). Yes, if root makes a big mess, Lindows can reinstall in ten minutes or so. It’s still a pain to have the big mess in the first place, and reinstalling all the apps takes time, too.
I just wanted to thank Kevin for coming here and being willing to “put his feet to the fire”. Let’s be honest…the readers of osnews.com are not the market that Lindows is going after. As a power user (of FreeBSD) I would never run Lindows as my main desktop since I prefer more configurability and less hand-holding. However I would definitely use it for a 2nd or 3rd box; I have seven at home.
Lindows is trying to strike a balance between the stability, security and affordability of Linux versus the ease of use of Windows. That involves limiting choices in some areas. There may not be much software included in the base OS, but how much is included in a base installation of Windows 2000 or XP? They sell an additional software pack which is reasonably priced for people who don’t have the skill necessary to “roll their own”. They have to make money somehow so I don’t fault them for that.
Sure, running as root is highly insecure but Lindows does allow you to create other less-privileged users.
(I can’t believe I’m sitting here defending Lindows)
” Run as root is simply considered a bad thing by those in the know”
What would you say, is Bero Rosenkraenzer ‘one in the know’?
He feels that for a home user ‘run as root’ is not such a big issue.
When you log into Ark linux you have virtually all the root privileges.
And yet Ark linux is considered beautiful by many advanced users. It has even converted some sworn enemies of linux.
It seems to me that the ‘rootgeeks’ (including the Suse management) keep missing the point:
Jo User doesn’t want unnecessary hassle.
There was a thread at the Extremetech forum, initiated by Jim Lynch, the editor, named: ‘we have met the enemy, and it is us’ (us linux users)
It became extremely popular.
The fall of M$ is unavoidable, it is History which makes it necessary.
I don’t want to see unnecessary delays.
And BTW, with Libranet nobody holds you back from typing ‘root’ at login and running as root all the time.
With Mandrake you are given the following options:
1) Leave the root password blank
2) Leave the user password blank
3) Automatic login
Worse than that, from the ‘rootgeeks’ point of view…
Yes, you have *some* root privileges but you are are logged in as a regular user and the root account is totally seperate. Plus you have a regular home directory under /home not in /root like Lindows…
this is a big difference and closer to what should happen.
I disagree.
You have ‘most’ root privileges, not ‘some’
And there isn’t a root account at all.
There is only an ‘Arklinux’ one
Of course you can create a root account.
But we still keep missing the broad picture: Jo User wants his computer to be as easy as possible, and will shun anything else like the pest.
I know it out of daily experience.
I disagree.
You have ‘most’ root privileges, not ‘some’
And there isn’t a root account at all.
There is only an ‘Arklinux’ one
Um, no. The root account is still there. The arklinux user is a normal user, with certain privileges granted due some interesting security configurations.
Besides, Bero Rosenkraenzer is very much in the minority. The vast majority of those familiar with Unix and Linux consider it a Very Bad Idea(TM) to run as root, and one sees this in both documentation and in the way most Linux installers require creating at least one normal user.
“But we still keep missing the broad picture: Jo User wants his computer to be as easy as possible, and will shun anything else like the pest.”
No one is missing the big picture. Mac OS X uses account passwords, and no one runs screaming. Typing in a password at a graphical prompt just isn’t that hard.
unless they changed it from a couple months ago when i installed it last.
there was clearly a root account on my machine, which i did not create. Infact i did not create any accounts becasue Ark creates the ArkLinux account as the default “user” account with some root privileges and you are auto-logged on
via this account…but there WAS a root account.
I also disagree, partially, about your analysis of what “Joe User” wants. Yes they want it to be simple and easy to use, but a great many of them want their systems to be secure. And secure systems, or more secure systems, do not have to be difficult or extremely obtrusive.
MacOS X is a great example of this, users run in there own accounts…not as administrator…with some admin privileges. There are actually many things you cannot due without supplying a password first, including installing some software.
besides that, most settings that would be ideally kept away under root privileges are things that are rarely changed once set.
The type of users you are talking about also don’t install as much software either. If they are repeatedly installing software then they are most likely slightly more advanced and able to type in a password.
Totally ignoring security, whether it is for a precived ease-of-use or because it’s not seen as an immediate threat, is short-sighted and narrow minded.
Joe User doesn’t WANT the hassle? Joe User is an idiot! He’s the one spreading viruses all over the planet. It’s up to us, the IT folks, to force Joe to WANT to educate himself. We shouldn’t cater to stupidity or ignorance, we should supplement it with knowledge!
It’s up to us, the IT folks, to force Joe to WANT to educate himself. We shouldn’t cater to stupidity or ignorance, we should supplement it with knowledge!
Exactly! This is what I have been saying for a long time, Security Through Education.
Security is unfortunatly a necessity when working with networked computers, the internet being the largest network.
1) Mac users are not a good example because they see themselves as an elite (and they are in fact a small minority)
2) Typing a password once, when you log in, is very different than typing it every 5 minutes.
3) Viruses (under Windows) spread regardless of passwords. The security measures to take are different. Under linux can you tell me how many viruses and trojans you have caught?
4) If we keep these sort of attitudes it is M$ which will win in the long run…
1.) what does your Mac user statement have anything to
do with what we are talking about here? Why does it matter if they ‘think’ they are elite? Or why does it matter how small of a minority or majority they are? We are talking about the OS itself and how it handles admin privileges anyway, not the users. A lot of Mac users are “Joe User”…elite or not, they simply want to use there computer. Again exemplifing the point.
2.) I have been running Linux for 5 years and I have never had to type in a password every 5 minutes? not even when I was a “newbie”
3.) Like I said, just because Linux isn’t as much as a security threat as Windows doesn’t mean it won’t be, to say so is near-sighted and idiotic. and YES there are Linux viruses, trojans, and worms out there. The difference is that most Linux users today are more informed, very few run as root, and there just simply aren’t as many Linux desktops as there are Windows desktops.
As an example though, while still at college a friend of mine that was in our LUG was hacked and rooted and was being exploited to carry out denial of service attacks. He was on a cable modem…ALL OPERATING SYSTEMS ARE VULNERABLE!
Why make it even easier to attack by running as root?
4.) How do you figure that? By emulating the old Win9x single logon horror show you and Lindows are trying to push on all it’s users? Listen, even Windows is trying to move past that one, why are you still trying to keep it?
Now my last words:
It’s obviously more beneficial to run as a regular user and people should not be running as root by default (especially being made to run as root by default) There are numerous ways around the root issue with out blatantly sacrificing one of Linux’s precieved security benefits. Ark Linux and MacOS X are prime examples.
finally, my biggest gripe about the whole Lindows/ROOT issue is that they say that the “Administrator” password is OPTIONAL!!! Who knows how many idiots are out there running Lindows as root WITHOUT a password.
I have installed Lindows (as a linux newbie I was interested – but now use Mandrake). What amazes me about it is the hardware support. I had installed LindowsOS 3.0 on an old Pentium II system, Voodoo Banshee video, serial mouse etc. and it installed fine, detected everything, I looked it over and decided it wasn’t for me (one thing I was looking for in particular was Java development which they did not have at the time).
Later I took the hard disk out and installed it in a new system AMDK6-2 500 with a different video card, sound card PS2 mouse and keyboard. LindowsOS booted without a hiccup. I almost fell out of my chair.
This article is an evaluation of a Linux distribution suitable for folks who have a limited knowledge of computers. The author complains about not finding a driver for his uncommon video card, apparently unaware that non-experts wouldn’t have any basis for installing the card he uses.
I also have a GEForce card, though a different one with 256 MB RAM. If I’m not careful it will crash XPProfessional on a regular basis, and RedHat 9.0 can’t firure it out, either.
regards
aubrey
I’ve installed Debian, and found apt-get to be almost perfect, everything needed is downloaded for your choice of new application. The installation is hard, so much so, that I just “dd”ed the finished install over to any new partition I wanted, and used ext2resize to fit. So, Lindows installs in a few minutes, but sometimes fails to detect a particular graphics card. That happens, and on a Slackware 8 system I installed, I use the framebuffer setup, since I boot from the dos partition to all Linux installs using loadlin and a menu. I would need to be able to do everything needed to get all hardware running as one would on any Redhat or Slackware system, etc. I still want to try Lindows, however, and might get the livecd version to see if my hardware can be detected on various pc’s.
To really appreciate what Lindows can do, roll your own linux, and put KDE 3.0 on it. Using Slackware 8.1, you are on your own after getting the base system going according to the instructions on this page:
http://hetteh.iq.pl/bl/slack81.html
I did just that, and I must say KDE 3.0 is very nice, indeed. I downloaded everything using dial up, so it took the better part of a week to get it running just right. You download KDE from Slackware 8 mirrors, one component at a time. I sure would like to try the Lindows installation, reportedly to be less than 10 minutes or so. I would have obtained Slackware cdroms, but the bookstores around here won’t carry them. Do you suppose Walmart has LindowsOS Boxed set on the shelf? I havn’t seen it there, but did know someone that got Mandrake 7 there a long while ago.
I am a beta tester for Xandros.
My opinion of Xandros versus Lindows is this.
a little more software included by default, but the interface on Lindows 4.0 is much prettier and much more polished than the one offered by Xandros. this is all subject to change, after all a beta version is rarely left 100% unchanged before it goes gold.
as far as the current beta version versus Lindows for a newbie computer user, I would recommend Lindowsos 4.0 it looks just enough like a microsoft based product to appeal to a new computer user, and is relatively easy to train someone like this to use Lindowsos 4.0
Just my two cents on the subject. If you ask me what I am running on 2 linux systems at home….. Fedora Core 1 and Suse 8.2.
A couple months ago one of my clients bought a discount pc which shipped with Lindows expecting to put Windows on it. When it arrived I told them to give Lindows a test drive and let me know what they thought. The next day I get a call asking for help getting the modem to work as they were frustrated.
When I got there, sure enough the modem wasn’t working and even though a serial device was detected and appeared to have some functionality, nothing I could find to try would get it to go. After several minutes they just asked that I put Windows on.
Unfortunately I’m just starting out with Linux so I didn’t have a ready solution to the problem which revolved around the box builder opting to include a WinModem. Now from what I read around the net, WinModems seem to be supported of late (or somewhat supported or some models are supported)and just now checking the Lindows website I find they do support two of the most popular chip sets (lucent and rockwell).
I no longer recall what was stuffed in the box, Windows had no trouble with it (but then we had the driver disk) and the problem is hardly Lindows fault since I would expect compatibility issues would be the responsibility of the integrator, but that was the show stopper in this case. To bad in a way. I would have liked to see them get a little further down the road and measured their reaction even though they wouldn’t have stayed with it in this instance.
I should boot Lindows up on a spare computer and drive it around myself I suppose but I’m knuckle deep in Debian with what little spare time I have. Wish I could have made it go when I had the chance.
“Joe User doesn’t WANT the hassle? Joe User is an idiot! He’s the one spreading viruses all over the planet. It’s up to us, the IT folks, to force Joe to WANT to educate himself. We shouldn’t cater to stupidity or ignorance, we should supplement it with knowledge!”
True, more education on security is necessary, however make sure to put the blame where it lies. If there wasn’t security holes in Windows, the viruses couldn’t spread. No excuses for MS. Do the job right or don’t do it at all. All this patching shouldn’t be necessary if they’d just make the damn thing secure.