The news break was yesterday, with AOL suing Microsoft over the Netscape-IE issue which resulted in Netscape losing its market share (from ~90% in 1997 down to ~7% today). While this is not surprising news, we wonder why AOL/Netscape is suing today, and not 4 years ago.
AOL’s Netscape Sues Microsoft
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Eugenia Loli
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It could be AOL/Netscape is suing now because Microsoft was deemed a malignant monopoly, and DOJ is basically letting MS go off with a slap on the wrist.
I think everyone expected an uprise agains Microsoft. One company can not have a strangle hold on > 90% of the market and not seriously piss off a lot of people – especialy with M$s business practices. I just wasn’t expecting this to happen so soon. I fugured in ten years – maybe. Does any one have any ideas of why IBM hasn’t done something like this (suing MS)? IBM is another goliath that could damage MS severly. I heard (from IBM fans) that big blue could buy MS several times over…
Well, I hope Netscape wins and MS has to ship a version of Windows without IE. And then I can sit back and laugh when people still continue to use IE even though they are not ‘forced’ to do so anymore.
Netscape did not lose the browser war because MS bundled IE into Windows. Heck, MS has been doing that since Win95 OSR1. You didn’t hear Netscape bitching about it until they couldn’t keep up with IE anymore.
They (Netscape) basically went to sleep after their 4.0 browser while MS continued to improve IE, and the Netscape 6 browser had more bugs than a roach motel, and THAT is why people odn’t use Netscape anymore.
So, Netscape, why don’t you shut up, build a decent browser, and leave MS alone.
WorknMan -> well.. maybe IE bundles into windoze wasn’t main reason, but it was one of many for sure. Yes, Netscape was a shit browser, but newest mozilla is pretty good. Opera 6 is even better. But common people don’t install new browser if thay have one. And if IE is bundled in windoze ppl stay with it. Even more: websites have to be made compatible with IE at first place because windoze is most popular os. And it’s not good because M$ likes to change standards to their own. It would be ok if M$ would work with w3 to make changes to standards, but they don’t. So: other browsers are even less popular because, if they want to keep standards, they aren’t compatible with all webpages (made to work with IE). Of course they try to be IE compatible but it’s not fair, because they are always behind IE
So try to think about whole situation first.
Sorry for my poor english
It is.
MS is working on making MSIE ‘standard compient’ (instead of the over way round).
OK, it’s ofton a little, err, quick to implement (it implements darfts and what have you, which is a pain, MSIE 5.5 does xslt VERY baddly (when IMO it just should not) while MSIE 6 is FANTASTIC!
The problem is two-fold, DOM (MSIE & NS implemented it before it w3 did, never a good thing) and “Stupid Webmaster” (sticking ‘USE MSIE, or f**k of’ all over there pages.
NS died as 1: MSIE did DOM better MUCH better, f**king layer tag!, MSIE is shipped by default, MSIE has only reasently started following w3 standards more closely.
DOM: Document Object Model. Simple Desc: Its the bit between JavaScript and HTML web: http://www.w3.org/DOM/
XSLT Extensible Stylesheet Language Transformations. Simple Desc: Convert XML to other stuff (like HTML). web: http://www.w3.org/Style/XSL/
It’d be nice if Micro$oft would allow that option, but
for now the rest of us are able to make do with 98lite!
It pretty much removes IE from the system and allows slective
installationuninstallation of a ton of M$ junk! Check it
ou if you’re interested: http://www.98lite.net
Personally I think Opera is a much better choice…
“While this is not surprising news, we wonder why AOL/Netscape is suing today, and not 4 years ago. ”
Because the DOJ missed the whole point, screwed up, and generally
wasted everyones time. AOL is now forced to pick up the fumble
and run with it. Too bad the DOJ put everyone way on the other side
of the field from the goal…..Your tax dollars hard at work.
“But common people don’t install new browser if thay have one. And if IE is bundled in windoze ppl stay with it.”
I don’t think so. I worked at an ISP in the mid-to-late 90’s and when IE was at version 3, most of our customers were using Netscape 3, and we didn’t even distribute it. Even at IE4 & Win98, there were still many people using Netscape Communicator.
Only when IE5 (which outdoes Communicator by a mile) was released did most people start using IE, including myself. I was a Netscape user up to that point.
The people I know who still use Netscape/Mozilla (all two of them) do so simply because they don’t like Microsoft.
Mozilla is decent, but still not as fast as IE. And Opera just sucks all the way around, IMHO.
WorkMan -> here, where i live, common ppl don’t have enough skills to install normal apps properly. They just use what they get with os, or what admin/”skilled” friend will install for them.
Opera 6 is very good.
IE 5+ is very good.
Mozilla 6.3+ is good.
I’m not saying “ppl stop using IE!”, i just want ppl to have a choice (or even more: information that there is a choice).
Anonymous -> “Stupid Webmaster” (sticking ‘USE MSIE, or f**k of’ all over there pages.)”
Webmasters get their payment for making pages for clients. If most of clients use IE which doesn’t obey all standards, they must make pages for IE. Here most of ppl use IE 5 and some IE 4, rest (really small numbers) use Mozilla/Netscape and Opera. I would be very happy if all popular browsers were compatible with standards.
Yeah, layers are shit, i like div more
It’s good that M$ adds new feautures like controlling scrollbar look from css
but they should work with w3, and implement standards properly (and than add new things eventually).
Of course others browsers aren’t ideal too, but ppl should have choice. For now most of them doesn’t even know about other browsers (and operating systems).
I still use netscape communicator if it didn’t crawl. The jump from 4.72 to 6.00 was a step backwards IMHO.
“WorkMan -> here, where i live, common ppl don’t have enough skills to install normal apps properly. They just use what they get with os, or what admin/”skilled” friend will install for them ”
Does that mean they don’t have a choice because they’re too stupid/lazy to install another browser themselves?
If MS’s competitors have their way and MS has to strip IE from Windows so that OEMs can install Netscape or some other browser, how is this any more of a choice than the other way around?
WorknMan -> hehe, good point
If there will be no browser at start, ppl will have to chose one ;] Now seriously, other ppl will have a choice. And web will not be dominated by m$ browser, so webmasters can make pages properly.
I’m sure more ppl would use Opera or Mozilla just because of small download size
Thx to it, there would be more competition between browsers and… maybe more implemented standards. As for “unskilled”: OEMs will have a choice. And i’m sure that some of them will install another browser, not IE.
BTW don’t You see that m$ is too powerfull now? browser case is just one of many things. and it’s easiest to understand by common ppl (not like bootloader
It’s funny: US was “fighting” with Russians, and main official reason was freedom (Russian government liked to know everything about their ppl, and control them as much as they could – too much). Now m$ is trying to do something very similar… no choice, only m$ products, m$ passport… and most their software is shit, as it was/is living in Russia for most ppl there.
“If there will be no browser at start, ppl will have to chose one ;]”
Yes, I agree with you that it would be better if users had a choice. But if competitors had their way and OEMs could sell Windows with IE removed and something else installed, would consumers then have a choice of which browser they wanted? Or would it just be whatever the OEMs decided to put in there?
“BTW don’t You see that m$ is too powerfull now?”
No, I really don’t. I personally don’t have a problem with Windows. And it’s nice that I can walk into any computer store and know that 95% the hardware/software they sell is going to run on my computer, and not 20% that runs on OSA, 20% that runs on OSB, 20% that runs on OSC, etc.
Also, it’s very nice from a tech support standpoint. When I did ISP tech support, we had to know Windows and that was about it. I couldn’t imagine having to try and keep up with 4-5 different operating systems and TCP/IP stacks and all of their updates, having to write instruction manuals and/or provide software for each one.
In this case, I think having one dominant operating system does have its advantages.
But even so, if other companies want to compete with MS, I don’t have a problem with that. What I DO have a problem with is that instead of building something that could actually COMPETE with Microsoft, they’d rather bitch and whine to a court judge about what MS is doing or not doing, trying ot get MS out of the way so that they can push their inferior products on the rest of us so that consumers would have more of a “choice.”
Having IE bundled into Windows DOES NOT prevent consumer choice and DOES NOT force users to use IE. If that were the case, then please explain why so many people continue to use Winamp for MP3 files when there’s media player built right into Windows.
Yeah, it’s good to have compatible hardware.
OSs can’t comptete because of M$ boot politics. Apps can’t compete because of undocumented API calls.
Having IE bundled into windoze does not prevent from installing another browser. But it DOES force You to use it (explorer). You DON’T have a choice to not to install it. Not all ppl use winamp. I know most of “unskilled” ppl doesn’t even know about winamp. And mp3 files aren’t forced to be made compatible with media player (like html files), mp3 is too strong standard (still m$ tries with their own files and maybe they will succeed for some time, if more ppl will cach windozexp and next viruses).
As You see M$ tries to take over all of the market. It IS monopolist. I don’t know how You, but i don’t want to live in M$ world. I like freedom (or at last what i have now), and i don’t like to be controlled.
“As You see M$ tries to take over all of the market. It IS monopolist. I don’t know how You, but i don’t want to live in M$ world. I like freedom (or at last what i have now), and i don’t like to be controlled.”
I like freedom as well and honestly I don’t see how including a browser is supposed to be infringing on ones freedom. Name me one OS that doesn’t bundle a browser. Windows and Mac have IE. Most Linux distros include some version of netscape, and even BeOS had Netpositive. The idea that everyone will use the included applications is a bad argument. Anybody who knows how to install a program can opt to use something else. Since Opera is so small that without java it is about a 20 minute download even on 56k. One has to be pretty impatient to not be willing to wait 20 minutes! As for taking over the world I wouldn’t want to live in AOLTW’s world either. AOLTW is without a doubt attempting to take over all the media. They already own a large chunk of it. As for browsers I have seen Netscape pre-bundled on machines so it isn’t as though people haven’t heard of the new netscape versions. Netscape lost the browser wars by delivering unstable 4.x versions that were less standards compliant than IE!!! As for the web designers that design pages for IE, I would say that one can make a very good page that works in IE, NS, and Opera 6 without sacrificing much of the design. The problem is that designers don’t bother to learn to write pages to look good in multiple browsers. There honestly isn’t much reason to support NS4.x anymore because it is so old and renders so little CSS1-2 that it’s too much of a hassle to write a separate page for a 3+ year old browser. People using NS 4.x need to move on. Through the bad NS 4.x series and the bad early 6.x browser made a lot of people lose their patience with waiting for a better version of netscape. Microsoft didn’t force NS to make a string of bad browsers, and claiming that “undocumented API’s” were the problem is garbage. Except for version 6, I have found Opera to be the most stable browser out there. If Opera can make something stable I don’t think the “undocumented api’s” theory had anything to do with NS’s fall from grace.
I’ll bet COMPAQ could seriously hurt MS. I think they have/use to have? a special deal with them. Note that on some older Compaqs they came with COMPAQ DOS 6.x and/or COMPAQ Windows 3.x. It has never been OK for anyone else to rebrand the Windows spash screen, so why could COMPAQ? IBM did (i.e. PC-DOS), but we all know why. I wonder if whatever deal Compaq made with MS to allow that still exists and what privleges COMPAQ has that other OEMs do not. Also note that MS has never ported a Desktop or Server Windows to anything besides x86 . . . that is until NT on Alpha which Compaq owned/co-owned. Coencidence? Probably.
Why not four years ago? The answer is simple, and it’s not the answer most have posted here. Netscape is not sueing MS because the DOJ settlement was too soft, no matter how hard on MS the settlement was they would still have sued MS, simply for the money and to recouperate losses from Microsofts actions. But why now? Four years ago they would have had to fight against the very large microsoft defense team to prove 1) they had a monopoly and 2) that they were abusing these powers to hurt Netscape. Why spend all that money when they could do exactly what the did, complain to the department of justice about the charges and get them to prove most of your case. The DOJ vs Microsoft finding of fact already has stated that Microsoft was an illegal monopoly. The finding of fact and guilty verdict of the DOJ case can all be entered into evidence by AOL/Time Warner/Netscape/Etc with no possibility of defense from MS. Thus with virtually no cost to them, they completed what would be the most expensive and difficult part of the trial. With the guilty verdict put in their lap by the DOJ, Netscape simply needs to show the dammages these behaviors caused.
SSA -> IE is not only bundled browser (as Net+, or Mozilla in some linux distros – and with linux You can chose not to install it). IE changes Your OS (windoze), it’s also shell and who_knowse_what_else. I can delete Net+ and be sure nothing stays. BeOS will work. I can’t do that with IE (only way to have windoze without explorer is at os install phase with some app, which makes install more complicated than it should be, and still there will be explorer left
ok, first off, to anyone who says that even with ie bundled, ppl still dl their own broswer. WRONG. My dad(most everyones dad) doesn’t hardly now what a browser is. He could care less if it is netscape or mozilla or IE. he wants what works from the start…. and this may be a dumb question but….if windows(noIE) came out,how many of the HP and gateways and what not would still bundle IE in there…like they do with AOL? There needs to be a way to uninstall IE at any given time with 0 worries of losing anything. the same uninstall should be available to all MS bundle bloated CR@P! WMP is the worse gosh darn “player” i have yet used, i tried to use it once and was sick of it.
Why is it that people will side with AOL/TW against Microsoft in a monopoly lawsuit? If I’m not mistaken, AOL/TW is no better, if not worse, and Netscape was as guilty as Microsoft refusing to follow the standards of a group of people that claim their standards are the “official” ones in the days when IE gradually became a more popular browser. One wonders why these “official” people can’t make a standards-compliant browser of their own. Perhaps I should make a company that makes the official standards of the entire Internet. We don’t want the W3C monopolizing now.
As for Netscape 6.x, the older versions had many problems, but it has improved drastically since then and I feel they are actual competition to IE once again. It won’t be sudden though. IE’s victory over Netscape wasn’t. As for the time when I no longer used Netscape, I did not stop because Microsoft threatened to kill me if I didn’t use their browser. I quit when Netscape they released 4.x, undoubtedly the worst of their browsers. I do use Netscape 6.2 though.
As for Opera, I doubt that most people are dying to pay for a browser. There is a free version now, but the banner ad is annoying enough to make me stick to the monolopies of Netscape and Internet Explorer.
As for IE being a integrated into the OS, I agree that integration is wrong. I believe that all integration is wrong, especially the integration of the GUIs that BeOS, MacOS, and Windows have done. Those monopolies must quit their evil practices. By the way, if one chooses to use a certain GUI named Linux, they will need to install Konqueror. I say we also sue them now for believing in integration.
I’d say this illustrates some aspects of why IE overtook Netscape.
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000348.html